Talk:Alevism/Archive 1

Name
Please dont write that alevism is a part of shia muslims. That is totally wrong. The only thing we have incommen with shia, is the love for Ali and "the 12 imams". Thats like saying jews and christians have the same religion just because both share jesus.Im from Turkey, people around us are muslims. And the truth is, we have nothing similar to them in the religious area. Our religion "prairs" (nefes) are in turkish and not in arabic. We do not have mosques and our woman do not cover theire faces. We do not have ramadan. Because almost everyone around us is muslims it has been inevitable do resist islamic influence. But nothing major. We have oure own rituals (sema), and we beleive that there is no god almighty or allah. We beleive in the good of people, and that the god himself and the holy spirit is in the human being. // Mehmet

Hi, I am writing from Ankara-Turkey. "to the Levite tribe of Ancient Israel..."

Actually the word "Alevi" is the same thing with Arabic "Alawi". For Islamic History, it is an Arabic word generally meaning Supporter of Ali. In Turkish language it is written as "Alevi", and has no connection with the Levites of Israel. Thanks, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.142.172.254 (talk • contribs) 11:22, July 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * According to the article on Alawi "The Alevis of Turkey are different from Syria’s Alawites, though they share the same name. Turkey’s Alevis are descended from the Kizilbash, a Sufi-Shi`a offshoot with connections to early Safavid Iran, whereas, Alawites are Nusayris."
 * There seems to be a similarity in certain beliefs between the two, however, there are many subtle (but important) differences. For example, Alawites recognise Ali as the incarnation of the divine diety. This is not the case for Alevis. Pinar 05:21, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Alevi
I am new in editing; I forgot to write my name. My name is Recep Yesiloglu, I am from Antakya (Turkey) and living in Ankara.


 * Merhaba ve hosgeldiniz Recep - just write four tildes ( ~ } and your name and datestamp will appear automatically. Gerry Lynch 14:43, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"The name is possibly connected to the Levite tribe of Ancient Israel." This is an extremely interesting theory. Could any one elaborate on this. What is the evidence apart from the similatity in the names which does not seem to work for Turkish speakers who understand the root word Ali and its derivative Alevi. There are a few theories linking the Khazar Turks to the European Jews as Khazars voluntarily became a jewish state. Such theories have many political friends and enemies and it would be good to see any facts or evidence supporting Alevi-Levite connection. SunnyFrog 27/10/2004

You are not Alevi and unfortunately dont know anything about alevite.Alevite has so many esoteric teachings to reach the secrecy and non-alevi can not know and reach the reality of us.Even most alevis who doesnt or does practice alevi rituals can not know if he or she is not intelligent enough.Its like kind of kabbalah esoteric teachings. As you all know we alevis all different from muslims both shias or hanefis we are close to jewish people both politically, culturally, historcially and humanitically! You mention Alevis as if they were shias or turkic tribe but you are in wrong direction because all your definitions on alevite are which is fed with your wrongful family/public/education/non-alevi learned prejudgements. Diaspora Alevi Foundations have been researching our alevite roots and they had found the reality of us that is coming from priestly tribe levite, HaLevi.For example our ritual dance worship is a version of King Davids dance worship before ark of covenant.And the levites were carrying the ark of covenant.They have a mission on the temple with their lyre(sort of saz) and chants just like what we have been servicing today in our worship times. Every friday night we light candles just like shabbat and we pray with chants and instrumenst.Some of us dont practise it today.(LOL pardon shammanic shabbat ahahhahaa according to haters) People in Turkey who are antisemite call this ritual of us as infidel and group sex.We dont have sex during our service and we dont have to be muslim.This is our religion which is related to ancient levites. We know who we are so please pay attention on describing yourselves.Because people like you hate alevis so all your comments on us is just a poor antisemite. People like you has no differencies from Mehmet Ali Erbil or Mel Gibson the antisemits. All outsider might see about alevite are just masks.Because we are ancient levites modern survivor.Think about it for a long time!Time to judge your barbaric fathers and mothers because of massacring us, humuliating us and forcing us to converts our levite culture! Of course we may say we are infidel or shamans or shias.Because of your hatred.But personally i forgive you all thats why this makes me modern alevite or ancient levite.

Islam and Alevilik
Hi, in fact Turkish Alevis are not seeing themself as a part of islamic world. For example: The "official" language which is used rituals is Turkish while sects of Islam are using Arabic. Women and men are worshiping together this is strictly different from Islamic behaviour.

Alevilik is a form of Shamanism which is covered by islamic image.

Turks where converted islam by force, many Turkish cities razed and nomad tribes were attacked, alevilik is a culture and religion of some Turkish formerly nomad tribes which are less effected by Persians and Arabs while traveligh through west asia and asia minor becouse of dramatic climate changes in middle asia. --Utku5 16:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Not all Turks were converted to Islam by force. Some of them converted by political reasons just like the Seljuks (Selçuklular). Turks mostly saved their old religion by desiginig Alevi blief system. Many things in Alevi blief comes from Shamanism or Tengriism. Tengriteg 10:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * To be more precise: Turks never where forced to except islam, nor did they have any cities. At that time they were mere nomads. They [b]adapted[/b] islam. It can even be disputed whe

ther nowadays Alevi's are Turk, or etnical Kurds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.84.138.101 (talk) 20:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Sivas incident
There's a mention in the main article about the Sivas incident of 1993. It has been stated that the victims were burned by Sunni locals. This is an unacceptable remark, disgracing all Sunnis of Sivas. The perpetrators were and should be identified as "Islamic Radical Fundamentalists of Sunni origin".

You are right, need to change it. Article should not be antagonistic towards Sunni majority. Alevis are integral part of Turkey, as most of them are Turks indeed. abdulnr 01:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Fighting MHP? who invented that, many MHP leaders and supporters are Alevi, as Alevi have succesfully changed their image into the protectors and stand-bearers of Turkish culture and identity (referring the Central Asian/Turkistan traits) this is commongly accepted as alot of their cerenomies are in the Turkish language, they have very old cultural traditions etc these today are being adopted by mainstream society and encouraged.


 * Very few MHP leaders and supporters are Alevi. Look at the election statistics if you doubt this. There are a few villages scattered around that are pro-MHP, but they're the anomaly. eliotbates (talk) 11:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The part about "Sunni's of Sivas" should not be written like that, the vast majority of Sunni Muslims were disgraced, disgusted and dishonoured by these terrible terrorists hijacking sects of Islam and comitted attrocities against innocent people in its name.


 * Of course we have to recognize only extremist Sunnis participated in the massacre. However it is also important to ask the question: what did those moderate Sunnis, including those in government and security forces, do during and aftermath of the events. Is there any significant participation by the moderate Sunnis during the annual protest marking the anniversary? Is there a significant Sunni participation in the campaign to turn Madimak into a museum?BilgeHan1 23:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * We need to also understand the importance of mob personality. The individuals within the mob usually end up doing horrific things otherwise they would not imagine they are capable of. The murderous mob was created in the Mosques of the city and during the worship services. How many of the moderate Sunnis now refuse to participate in those Mosques' (Imams') services?BilgeHan1 23:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Alevi are an integral part of Turkey and Turkish culture.


 * Alevi blief is the real and genuine Turkish culture. Shamans became "baba or dede", shaman dances became "semah" e.t.c. Very few people know that Osman Ghazi (founder of the Ottoman empire) was an Alevi Turkmen. Janissaries (yeniçeriler) were from Alevi/Bektashi blief. Tengriteg 10:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Dont's start that Nationalistic nonsense. The Cem and Semah are a Holy ritual which was performed by Hz. Ali in heaven with Hz. Muhammad and 40 holymen. Your claim about Osman Ghazi is also nonsense. All the Ottomans were Sunni, claiming otherwise shows your lack of knowlage on the subject. Being a turk or alevi does not automaticly mean you know everything about it...

--83.84.138.101 (talk) 20:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You are not Alevi and unfortunately dont know anything about alevite.Alevite has so many esoteric teachings to reach the secrecy and non-alevi can not know and reach the reality of us.Even most alevis who doesnt or does practice alevi rituals can not know if he or she is not intelligent enough.Its like kind of kabbalah esoteric teachings. As you all know we alevis all different from muslims both shias or hanefis we are close to jewish people both politically, culturally, historcially and humanitically! You mention Alevis as if they were shias or turkic tribe but you are in wrong direction because all your definitions on alevite are which is fed with your wrongful family/public/education/non-alevi learned prejudgements. Diaspora Alevi Foundations have been researching our alevite roots and they had found the reality of us that is coming from priestly tribe levite, HaLevi.For example our ritual dance worship is a version of King Davids dance worship before ark of covenant.And the levites were carrying the ark of covenant.They have a mission on the temple with their lyre(sort of saz) and chants just like what we have been servicing today in our worship times. Every friday night we light candles just like shabbat and we pray with chants and instrumenst.Some of us dont practise it today.(LOL pardon shammanic shabbat ahahhahaa according to haters) People in Turkey who are antisemite call this ritual of us as infidel and group sex.We dont have sex during our service and we dont have to be muslim.This is our religion which is related to ancient levites. We know who we are so please pay attention on describing yourselves.Because people like you hate alevis so all your comments on us is just a poor antisemite. People like you has no differencies from Mehmet Ali Erbil or Mel Gibson the antisemits. All outsider might see about alevite are just masks.Because we are ancient levites modern survivor.Think about it for a long time!Time to judge your barbaric fathers and mothers because of massacring us, humuliating us and forcing us to converts our levite culture! Of course we may say we are infidel or shamans or shias.Because of your hatred.But personally i forgive you all thats why this makes me modern alevite or ancient levite. [edit]Islam and Alevilik

Music and poetry discussion
There should be a distinction made between secular Alevi music and sacred/religious cemevi music, as they represent two different styles that have had different impacts on Turkish music as a whole. Much of the music currently considered türkü (Turkic nationalist folk songs) in Turkey is Alevi secular music (the music of Alevi aşık bards), though little of the cemevi music would be considered the same. That there are strong secular and sacred music styles is unique in itself, as there isn't, for example, a huge body of secular music from other Sufi orders in Turkey (such as the Mevlevi or Sinani orders).

Second, I'm also puzzled about the inclusion of Mercan Dede - in most of his public performances stylized forms of Mevlana are depicted, but Alevi concepts have not been a prominent recurring theme in his art. Other prominent popular Turkish artists such as Cemali and Aynur Doğan have had much longer and more substantive interactions with Alevi music.

Third, regarding the 1993 hotel fire, one of the most important Alevi bağlama players in the country died in this fire - Hasret Gültekin. The wording of the "hotel fire" section, as it stands, reads very awkward, since it pits "intellectuals" against "Sunnis." Other writers above have already pointed out that much of the Sunni majority was outraged about the event as well (and of course not responsible). The blanket term "intellectuals" is misleading - some of the casualties were very important artists and musicians, as well as being intellectuals, too. In Istanbul, bağlama-saz players (Alevi and otherwise) continuously reference how brilliant Hasret was, the ways he drastically altered the way Turkey's "national" musical instrument is played, how he died too young, and so on. The loss in 1993 was a great cultural one for the country of Turkey. --oudplayer 10:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have more information about the ones that was killed in the fire? I added Hasret Gültekin as one of the victims. FreddyFred 11:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Is Proper Name "Alevi-Bektashi?"
The article argues that the proper name for the religios system is "Alevi-Bektashi." This may not necessarily be correct. These are actually two different belief systems that have borrowed much from each other. This does not agree with the NPOV policy and the veriability policy of Wikipedia since it contains no references.

I change the article as the following: "Some argue that the Alevi belief should be recognized as part of a larger Alevi-Bektashi belief system."

Sinan Ozel 22:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. Bulgarian Bektashis are about as similar to Turkish Alevis as Turkish Alevis are to the Ah le-Haqq of Iran. There is some familiarity, but quite a bit of difference. The biggest difference is in the early historical roots - the central Anatolian Alevis had a particular form of shamanism before adopting Islam (or aspects of Islam) which differs from the Bektashi in Bulgaria. --eliotbates 23:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I recommend you go and browse in www.alevibektasi.org. Yes obviously there are differences. That is why they have different names. But I would think that the differences are minor and insignificant when you compare them to what they have in common. Don't you agree?

BilgeHan1 23:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Improving this article
IMHO this article needs a large overhaul. It does present how Alevi view their own religion, only unsourced outside criticism ("pagans"). Other passages are in inappropriate sections (origin and ethnicity in etymology, speculations in history). Historic events and figures like Haci Bektas Veli are missing, so are sections about religious practice. Is there someone with knowledge about the subject who can improve it, otherwise I could try to put information in from the de:Aleviten article. --Hurax 14:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed incorrect material about the Bektashi Sufis in the Albanian lands.
I don't know why someone included in this article the false claims that Bektashi Sufis in the Albanian lands are part of "Alevilik" or constitute 30-40 percent of the population among Albanians. These are rather typical legends one hears among New-Age types in the West but are quite incorrect.

Albanian followers of the Bektashi Sufi order do not constitute more than 25 percent of Albanians at a very generous estimate. I have no reason to understate this because I am quite close to and sympathetic to the Bektashis in the Albanian lands, but there is no need to exaggerate things. I also work closely with Turkish and Kurdish Alevis in Germany

Albanian Bektashis and Turkish Alevis, who may also be known as Alevi-Bektashis, both honor the Sufi saint Hadji Bektash Veli, but in very different ways, and it is incorrect to suggest that Albanians are part of "Alevilik." Some Albanian Bektashis visit the tomb of Hadji Bektash in Turkey, not in mass pilgrimages as Turkish and Kurdish Alevis do. Albanian Bektashis do not generally speak Turkish and do not employ Turkish as the language of their rituals. They consider Albanian Bektashism to be a kind of Albanian national sect.

Turkish and Kurdish Alevis employ popular music of a Western kind in their pageants. Albanian Bektashis do not do this.

Stephen Suleyman Schwartz Center for Islamic Pluralism Washington/London/Cologne/Tetova, MacedoniaKarastjepan 01:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Spelling and tone
I agree that this article could use a lot of clean-up. Much of the tone seems highly idiosyncratic. In particular, I question why the article has generally re-spelled so many special terms (e.g. cem, ocak, Düşkünlük Meydanı) rather than leaving them in their real Turkish forms? There is no English word ojak, so I see no profit in using that spelling rather than ocak – use 'hearth' if you need an anglicization. More to the point, why does the article repeatedly try to force parallels between Alevilik and other religions (Christian trinitarianism, Sankhya Hinduism, Kabbalah) rather than explicate Alevi beliefs in their own right and on their terms? Q·L·1968 ☿ 17:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is the English Wikipedia so it should be readable for non-Turkish readers. For this reason we should use English scripts instead of Turkish scripts; e.g., there is no ş in English and c is not pronounced like j. -- behmod  talk  17:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nonsense. I'm a non-Turkish reader. If we see a word we don't know how to read, we'll make reference to Turkish language. For languages that use the Roman alphabet, we should use the real spellings; for languages that use other alphabets, we should use a conventional transliteration or transcription. Phony respellings like ojak hinder comprehension rather than help it. (For example, if I'm an English speaker who wants to double-check the translation of ocak in my dictionary. I won't find the word if I look it up under a bogus spelling.) Best, Q·L·1968 ☿ 10:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

History Reduction
I do not think this page is a good place to start with postulating on the theories of the origins of the Shi'ite movement. That should go under Shiism, or whatever the article is called. The "Shiahs are an anti-Arab power movement" theory has a lot of other issues with it, such as how do we then explain the power of Shiism among the people of Yemen.Johnpacklambert 01:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Apart from "Ali", Alevi blief has nothing to do with Shiism. They are very different. I deeply examined both. Alevi blief comes from the the pre-Islamic Turkish Tengriist religion. Tengriteg 11:17, 06 August 2007 (UTC)

Salman (Parsi) is not Solomon. In persian, Solomon is called Soleyman.

Shia
Please do not disturb the scientiffically correctness of this topic.

Some people, especially people from Turkey, does not know the meaning of the term "Shia". To say Alevis are Shia, does not mean that they are orthodox like the Iranian/Iraqi Ithna Ashariyyahs.

The term Shia, is a term used for the 2nd largest Islamic denomination. Any belief of the world, claiming to follow the path of Imam Ali is classified as Shia. And any islamic belief reckognizing the "Four Rightly Guided Caliphs" is Sunni.

The fact that the Ithna Ashariyyah / Jafaris claims that THEY ARE "The Shia madhab" does not mean that other beliefs can not be Shia. (Xizilbash 09:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC))

The Alevis have nothing to do with the Islam. The Islam and Alevi are two different religions —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Alevism sees itself as being Islamic. But if you don't believe in Alevism, that is your own problem!

I do think we need mention the similarities between Alevis and main Shia beliefs. However we also must be careful to emphasize the difference. The difference is huge as the sub-sections below clearly spell them out. Thanks BilgeHan1 21:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

(Xizilbash 11:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC))

You are not Alevi and unfortunately dont know anything about alevite.Alevite has so many esoteric teachings to reach the secrecy and non-alevi can not know and reach the reality of us.Even most alevis who doesnt or does practice alevi rituals can not know if he or she is not intelligent enough.Its like kind of kabbalah esoteric teachings. As you all know we alevis all different from muslims both shias or hanefis we are close to jewish people both politically, culturally, historcially and humanitically! You mention Alevis as if they were shias or turkic tribe but you are in wrong direction because all your definitions on alevite are which is fed with your wrongful family/public/education/non-alevi learned prejudgements. Diaspora Alevi Foundations have been researching our alevite roots and they had found the reality of us that is coming from priestly tribe levite, HaLevi.For example our ritual dance worship is a version of King Davids dance worship before ark of covenant.And the levites were carrying the ark of covenant.They have a mission on the temple with their lyre(sort of saz) and chants just like what we have been servicing today in our worship times. Every friday night we light candles just like shabbat and we pray with chants and instrumenst.Some of us dont practise it today.(LOL pardon shammanic shabbat ahahhahaa according to haters) People in Turkey who are antisemite call this ritual of us as infidel and group sex.We dont have sex during our service and we dont have to be muslim.This is our religion which is related to ancient levites. We know who we are so please pay attention on describing yourselves.Because people like you hate alevis so all your comments on us is just a poor antisemite. People like you has no differencies from Mehmet Ali Erbil or Mel Gibson the antisemits. All outsider might see about alevite are just masks.Because we are ancient levites modern survivor.Think about it for a long time!Time to judge your barbaric fathers and mothers because of massacring us, humuliating us and forcing us to converts our levite culture! Of course we may say we are infidel or shamans or shias.Because of your hatred.But personally i forgive you all thats why this makes me modern alevite or ancient levite. [edit]Islam and Alevilik

Is Alevism a branch of Yazdanism or Islam?
Are Alevis Yazdans or Muslims?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.15.5.33 (talk) 12:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably syncretic. Funkynusayri 13:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you.

Discussion
The beginning ought to describe, as basically as possible, what kind of phenomenon we are speaking of: A religious and cultural movement, mainly Turkish (but also Kurdish), with Shi'i beliefs. By the way, can we get sources for these population estimates?

It seem a basic fact about Alevism that it is often grouped with the Bektashi tradition; at the same time, they are obviously not completely identical with one another. I suggest simply mentioning their veneration of Hajibektash, and the tendency of many to say "Alevi-Bektashi", and leave details of the Bektashis (such as all the countries where they're located) to the article on them.

Same for the various "ghulat" groups (which are anyway listed under "ghulat"). Unlike the Bektashis, nobody says they belong to an "Alevi-Ahl-i-Haqq" tradition" ('Yarsdanism' notwithstanding), and the groups have little contact. So, I propose that it is enough to mention that the groups exist, and refer readers to those articles for details.

I think we can agree on how to phrase the reference to Shi'ism--by explaining the sense in which Alevi are Shi'i (for the most part), and the reason why many avoid the term. On the other hand, there are also Sunni elements as well--such as their interpretation of the four "gates".

At the same time, Alevism is obviously a Turkish (and Kurdish) socio-cultural movement, and a group identity. So we need a paragraph explicating this "native" aspect. (Noting that the Turks moved around a lot, historically--see Shah Ismail.) I don't know enough about "Turkish shamanism" to comment, but perhaps we could get some sources...? The truth is, there is probably also a lot of Orthodox Christian influence too.

At the end of the day, I think we're going to find that "Alevism" is not just one thing, so there's no reason to push one interpretation of it. Best wishes, --Dawud


 * The source for the population figure is in the main Turkey article as well as Religion in [[Turkey. I am reverting because the population figure is correct and the imprecise non-figure of 15 to 35 percent is unusable. I have no problem with most of your other edits, but please do use the edit summaries present under the edit window. Becoming a registered user would also help. Cheers! Baristarim 08:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I see they do give an academic source for the 20 % figure. That seems exaggerated, though. (12 % seems plausible.) Does anyone have the book handy? (David Shankland, The Alevis in Turkey: The Emergence of a Secular Islamic Tradition. Routledge: 2003, and no page number is given.) I wonder what his source was, or whether he was just guessing. I realize there are no official censuses, but surely there must be unofficial polling...?


 * I could not find much data about Alevi population in Turkey in English, except one from a EU report, called Eurlings Report. The number given is 15 to 20 million. http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=SPEECH/06/536&format=HTML&aged=1&language=EN&guiLanguage=en. Government does not recognize Alevism as a sect or minority religion, so there is no official census data. Even if there were not all Alevi families would be comfortable identifying themselves as such.

BilgeHan1 17:41, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Another thing--although Alevis often identify with the Bektashi tradition as well, it would be wrong to call them ipso facto "Bektashis," as the opening sentence suggests. Bektashism is a distinct lineage with a different history, geographic spread, and set of practices. For example, a non-Bektashi can become a Bektashi by being initiated, but non-Alevis are permitted to "become" Alevi only rarely, or so I hear. (Perhaps we should think of it as a kind of adoption into a subethnicity.) Anyway, I suggest eliminating details of where Bektashis live (leaving that for the Bektashi article), and focusing only on those who explicitly call themselves Alevi. (The same would apply to other, similar ghulat groups such as the Ahl-i-Haqq.) Apparently someone objects to this. Would you mind explaining why?


 * On the other hand, if there are self-described "Alevi" in Azerbaijan, then this should be mentioned up-front. (Can anyone confirm that the Azeris use this word? And do Iranian Azeris call themselves Alevis, or Aliollahi / Ahl-i-Haqq?)


 * The article says "Whilst orthodox Islam possess a tradition of authoritative religious scholarship backed by carriers of formal learning, Alevism lacks both." I have several problems with this. (a) The phrase "orthodox Islam" is vague. (b) Is the scholarly output of Alevi dedes really so different from that of say, Shi'i scholars outside of Iran?


 * By the way, does anyone know of translations of the Buyruk(s) into any languages other than Turkish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.167.164.137 (talk) 07:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Introduction should be brief, clear, precise, and objective. Anything contraversial can have a section below. For example, if we want to work on the place of Alevism within Islam, we could have a section called Alevism and Islam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BilgeHan1 (talk • contribs) 21:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

new text
To whoever redid the opening, I like your changes very much. They highlight some very positive aspects of Alevism, such as male/female equality, and correctly highlight the importance of music and dance.

Please look over the new text, especially under "history", adding or correcting whatever seems appropriate.

I notice that much of the "beliefs and practices" section seems to follow John Schindeldecker's book--perhaps verbatim. I'll check again in a few days... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.60.55.9 (talk) 09:53, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I made those changes. However someone later reworded most of the text, and I loved what he/she did. It reads so much better now. I am not familiar with Schindeldecker. I will check it out. Thanks for the information. BilgeHan1 04:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I noticed that someone made changes to the section called "Name". The same person added two paragraphs in the middle of that section. I believe those middle two paragraphs need to be removed from that section. The first one of the two is redundant in my opinion, and either way it does not belong in the "Name" section. The second one belongs to the section called "Relations with other Muslim groups".

BilgeHan1 04:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

That was me. (Dawud) Thank you for your kind words. The "name" paragraphs were moved from below. I do not think they really need to be in the article, since it would be better to just link to the history of 'Ali and the Sunni / Shi'i split.

I am now adding various population estimates to the "demographics" section. Someone keeps reverting to "20 million" (opening sentence) which is tedentious (being at the upper end of plausible estimates). I changed it to "several tens of millions" which I hope is sufficiently vague to reflect our fundamental uncertainty.

I hope no one is bothered by "sub-ethnicity". While no one is really sure what an ethnic group is, most Alevi probably see themselves first as ethnic Turks or Kurds. Some, however, would see Alevism as their primary identity (and not necessarily a religious one). For example, I believe some of the Zazaki were lobbying for an independent "Alevistan." Anyway, I think it is important to say, at the beginning, that Alevism is (sometimes) a religious community, sometimes a lineage of folk customs (as Turkish tourism promotes it), but is also an identity group (or a whole family of them).


 * Thanks Dawud. Please google the words +Eurlings +Report +Alevi. In this report the figure 15-20 million is mentioned as the estimate. BilgeHan1 (talk) 20:55, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added that to the list of population estimates under "demographics." (The anti-spam bot wouldn't let me give the link.) Who knows where the speaker got this figure from, though--maybe Wikipedia!


 * Does anybody have David Shankland's book? That was apparently the source for the original "20 million" estimate, but I feel funny about "quoting" a book I can't see. Anyway, please add the actual quote and a page number if you can. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.60.55.9 (talk) 00:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I do have Shankland's book, and also a much newer book he wrote called Structure and Function in Turkish Society. In this later book (published in 2006), he writes in a footnote on page 81 about the extent to which claims about the number of Alevis in Turkey are exaggerated (thus revising his earlier statement). He now estimates that 15 percent of Turkey is Alevi (and not the 30 percent claims some make), which based on 2007 population estimates would amount to around 10.6 million people. I think that number is safer and more likely than others I've seen in print. eliotbates (talk) 05:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Request (from Dawud)
You know what this article really needs? Photographs. At least, one of an Alevi semah, showing the dancers, and one of a typical cemevi. We could put them in "practices" or in "music."

And can we have a photo of a dede doing something dede-like, such as performing a wedding? A saz player would be good too.

Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.167.169.33 (talk) 11:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe we can also refer to this link of Semah. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADh8xH9d1eI

It is one of my favorites. By the way does anyone know why the neutrality of the article disputed? I did not see any comments by the person who tagged the article. Thanks BilgeHan1 (talk) 01:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I am encountering some technical trouble.


 * [first problem erased--I think it's gone away]

Another problem: I think I may have messed up the template. Can anybody fix it? (The "edit this template" thing is now outside of the template, at the top of the "Alevi" article itself.)

Thanks! And if anyone knows Turkish and can categorize the other books (and / or add more), please do. I would personally like to see a lengthy explanation of the contents of the Buyruks, which I (being ignorant of Turkish) am unable to read. --Dawud


 * [Plagiarised passages now removed or cited properly...I think!]unsigned comment added by 218.167.176.7 (talk) 16:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Kemalist supporters
I would consider it wrong to say the Alevis are strong supporters of kemalism since it is known that one of the bloodiest revolts against the modern republic of turkey was led by Alevis, the dersim revolt. However it is true that they support secularism due to fear of an islamism.

''It is true that one of the heaviest revolts against Turkish Repuclic simply was backed by Alevi tribes in Dersim. But this was not the situation in other districts in Turkey that time. For example, in Sivas district,where Atatürk started his campaign of independence, Alevis were strong supporters of his ideology and policies. For instance, Aşık Veysel has some poets about republic,independence, Atatürk himself. And it is impossible to deny that Aşık Veysel was an Alevi.

And when we look at modern and let's say in 30 years situation. We can say that Alevis traditionally are in favor with secularist -Kemalist Turkish national ideology. CHP (Republican People's Party), had the highest points in latest general elections in Tunceli district and in my personal opinion if CHP can find a place in parliamentary, this is caused by its Alevi backbone.''

--Emredmrl (talk) 23:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Alevi in Iran
Hi I am originally from South Azerbaijan, and thought to contribute to this discussion, as to my surprise there is no refrence to Alevi communities in South Azerbaican.

Alevi communities within Iran spread through out the north western and western region of the country. These large communities are more concentrated in small towns or villages of South Azerbaijan (Iranian Azerbaijan) and Kurdistan province of Iran.

The term Alevi was used till early twenty century for these communities and by themselves but at the present they are called with various names such as Ali Allahi,Ahl i Hag or Goran. The preferred name by the community is Ahl i Hag (literally meaning People of The Truth, or People of The Justice).

Ethnically they are either Azerbaijani Turks or Kurds. Azerbaijani of Ilkhichi (Ilx&#305;ç&#305;), near Sahand mountain is mainly populated by Alevi, there also large vilages around, the Miandab (Miandoab) and Urmia within the western side of the Azerbaijan province.

The annual gatherings around the Shand (Sultan Dagi) in Azerbaijan province is one of the open rituals. At the peak of Sultan Dagi there is a small seasonal spring, which its water are considered to be blessed, by Alevi community. At the present there is a rather small Jamkhana (Cemxana) at the eastern foots of the Sahand.


 * There should be a clearification here, Ahl-e-Haqq(Yarsan) is not the same as Alevism, however they are ralated. The official term might be that they are Ahl-e-Haqq(Yarsan) but it should be more clear that Alevism and Ahl-e-haqq(Yarsanism) is not the same.

A view from Istanbul
The Turkish Alevi community is, as the article correctly points out, merely tolerated (at best) by the wider Sunni majority. Alevilik is generally viewed as deviant, abberant and corrupted by Shamanism, Christianity and other "alien" influences. Faced by widespread ignorance and prejudice, few Alevis in majority-Sunni areas (and more particularly those in public life or the professions) feel able to openly reveal their identity let alone promote or celebrate it. That is to Turkey's loss.

Furthermore, it cannot be emphasized enough the degree to which Turkish Alevis overwhelmingly support Turkey's European Union accession process. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.97.206.199 (talk • contribs) 19:39, October 25, 2005 (UTC)

Wrong!
This article includes much wrong information. Using the views of Irene Melikoff and other subjective writers is not recommended. Alevism is the true path of Allah, Muhammad and Ali. There is no such thing as Shamanistic elements in Alevism. If there was, then there was a need to change ALL articles about beliefs in wikipedia! Then there should be added, that Sunnism was a mix of Judaism, Christianity etc.! As an Alevi I will not accept this discrimination. Alevism should be described as Alevism sees itself, and not as foreigners observ it! A great part of this article is useless! Where's Shah Ismail Safawi, and his ancestor Sheikh Safi al-Din Ardabili? Where's the 12 imams, Haci Bektas?

I advice the admins of wikipedia to add a note that explains the wrong/discussable containings of this article!

Please, you are more than welcome to contribute to the article. If you are Alevi, well, even better! Wikipedia is made to be corrected by YOU! Chop up the article, re-write it, add or remove stuff. Wikipedia is here for YOU! You seem to sit on alot of information: ADD IT! If you feel something are wrong, change it! You had enought energy to read the article, go in here at the discussion page and vent youre opinion, so focus that energy and contribute......This is youre chance to do so, whereelse whould that be possible....YOU are needed! Thats all!

Update needed
Dear contributors, as a interested reader, here is my comment: this article has many interesting elements in it. However it shows that several strongly biased sentences were added/modified (in bad English too); so I would like to advise that someone takes care of amending this article, which I think has the potential to be very good.

Also, may I point out a "reputable" source of information on Alevism: the Turkish Daily News, who published a series on Alevism very recently, on Nov 12, 2006. Unfortunately, I could only read it in Google's cache, not on the newspaper's site: here is part 1: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:_oQr1lC7IwIJ:www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php%3Fenewsid%3D57542+alevism+AND+iran&hl=fr&gl=be&ct=clnk&cd=2

To access the other parts, google for Alevism: A faith in search of freedom "part X" with X running from 2 to 5.

Thank you!

Questions
Hello, I am interested in Alevism, but am not an Alevi. According to what I have read, Alevis classically did not accept converts (in contrast to other forms of Islam, if the Alevis are in fact to be classified as a form of Islam), but that a number of outsiders have recently "converted" or otherwise affiliated with Alevism. Could anyone give details (or even better, contact suggestions)? For example,


 * What types of people have been converting? Are they mostly former Sunni Turks?


 * Which dedes or other authorities (if any) have been supervising these conversions? I suppose there must have been some intra-Alevi debate on the propriety of this...


 * Am I right in assuming that converts are drawn primarily to Turkish-speaking Alevi communities rather than Kurdish-, Arabic-, or Azerbaijani-speaking ones?


 * What forms and requirements are observed? For example, is conversion (to the extent that it is accepted) understood primarily as acceptance of a master/disciple relationship with a dede, or as an expression of allegiance to Shi'i Islam, or as adoption into an ethnic group?

Thank you very much! --Dawud


 * No actually it's quite the opposite. Many Alevis are converting to Islam. In my local mesjid there are many converted alevis. Some also convert to Shi'a islam(the true form i.e. practiced in Iran- Jefari) because it suits their Shi'a identity.IsaKazimi (talk) 16:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Origin of the word "Cem-- behmod talk  20:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)"
Someone needs to add more information about the word "Cem"/"Jem". This particular Alevi cult is very interesting, because it is not only unique to Anatolian Alevism, but also unites rituals and names of different origins. Bsed on the information given in the respected Encyclopaedia of Islam, it should be noted that the Turkish word "Cem" has three different etymological origins:


 * the Arabic word jam (جمع) which means "gathering" or "to gather"
 * the Persian word jām (جام) which means "cup"
 * the Persian name jam (جم) which is a shorter form of the Persian kings-name Jamshid

Because of the lack of certain sounds in Turkish and because of the Turkic vocalic harmony, all three words are pronounced "cem" and all three words are essential in understanding the Anatolian "Cem" ritual.

The first meaning of the word "cem" is "gathering", exactly as in Arabic. The "Cem" ritual has the same meaning to Alevis as mosques to traditional Muslims. The second meaning of the word is taken from the Persian words "cup" and "Jamshid". This may sound strange to people who are not familiar with Persian mythology and Persian poetry, but the theme of "Jām-e Jam" ("The cup of King Jamshid") is an improtant element of Persian Sufi poetry and mythology. According to Persian mythology and Persian Sufi traditions, the ancient/mythological Iranian king Jamshid had an enchanted cup which allowed him to communicate with the gods. Whenever he drank wine from the cup, his soul was transcended to heaven where he communicated with the Gods. This ancient Persian legend is in fact connected to the ancient Soma cult of the early Indo-Iranian tribes. After the conquest of Islam, the ancient Aryan cults vanished in Iran, but Persian poets continued to use these metaphors in their poems (for example the Persian Sufi poets Hafiz and Khayyam who use the consumption of "wine", and the use of a "divine cup" in their poems). This ancient Aryan cult is known in Persian as "Āyīn-e Jam", "The ritual of King Jamshid", and this is ultimately the origin of the Turkish expression "Cem Ayni". Just as in Persian Sufi poetry, the Anatolian Alevis drink wine out of a cup during their "Cem" rituals, and they preform the "Semah" - both rituals have their origins in the pre-Islamic cults of Persia and Mesopotamia and were in part heavily mixed with Arab-Islamic beliefs.

So, in their "Cem" ritual, the Anatolian Alevis unite not only the Islamic concept of "Jam'" ("gathering", "mosque"), but also the Persian Sufi cult known as "Āyīn-e Jam". The Persian cults were brought to Anatolia by Persian Sufi saints (known in Turkish as Horasan erleri, "the saints of Khorasan"), especially by Hajji Bektash Wali who was himself a native of Khorasan. Other important Persian Sufis were Rumi and Shams-e Tabrizi. Also important are Shah Ismail and the entire Safavid Sufi family who were also steeped in ancient Persian culture and cults. In fact, according to Turkish scholar and expert on Sufism, Dr. A. Gölpinarli, the Kizilbash are - without doubt - connected to the Persian Khurramit movement (who were spiritual descendants of a mysterious Zoroastrian secret brotherhood known as "Mazdakites") cult during the rea of Sassanid rule. The Khurramites were a mixed Shia-Zoroastrian militant group who fought the Sunni caliphate of the Abbasides.

Although some people claim that "Cem" is derived from the ancient Turkic word "Kam" (meaning shamanism), this claim is rejected by all mainstream schollars. First of all, the Turkic word is itself ultimately derived from the Sanskrit word "cramana" (this word is also the root of the Pali word samana" which has become the root of the modern English word "shaman"). Secondly, there are no specific similarities between ancient Turkic cults, as reported by Mahmud al-Kashgari or al-Tabari, and modern Alevi "Cem" rituals. See also the good article in the German Wikipedia: de:Cem (Religion).


 * These information are really interesting. If you have reliable references such as Encyclopaedia of Islam why do not you add them. Also, it would be great if somebody here can translate useful information from the German Wikipedia to here-- behmod  talk  20:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * 1. 'Semah' comes from pre-Islamic Turkic Shaman dances. 2. Kam means Shaman not Shamanism. 3. Cem is not related to Kam. 4. There are even similarities between old Turkic cults reported by Zemarkhos and modern Alevi. Tengriteg 11:02, 06 August 2007 (UTC)


 * "Sema" ist not Turkish, it's Arabic and means hearing. The word Shaman ist not Turkish either, it is Tunguskic and has Sanskrit origins (it is taken from Chinese 沙门，沙弥 sha man, which itself is borrowed from Sanskrit śamana, meaning "ascetic"). Identifying Alevi traditions with ancient cults of Turkic nomads is a phenomenon within Turkish nationalist communities, but it is not supported by any serious historian or scholar. Alevism, as part of the Shia movement, has its origins in Western Persia and Iraq, and ultimately goes back to the struggles of anti-caliphal Shia movements as well as Persian-nationalist Zoroastrian revolts (see Babak Khorramdin, Abu Muslim, Khurramites, Shahrbanu, Qizilbash, etc etc). -- 84.58.187.23 10:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Alevi Woman in 'Relations to other Muslim groups' section
Sigh! The articles are suppost to be NEUTRAL(NPOV) incase you did not understand!

saying: '' 'The ideals of equality, justice, and respect for all are prominent in Alevi society and give Alevi women a more respected status than that of Sunni women. Alevi women do not need to be veiled and are not as segregated, nor must they fear polygamy or one-sided divorce as Alevis practice monogamy and divorce is forbidden. Women also partake equally in the religious life of the community.' ''

This is just bias! I'm removing it because of that. I suspect it was written by an ignorant Alevi woman. Muslims repect women just as much as Alevis do so don't try and spread your anti-Islamic Alevi propaganda on here! Also, most Muslim women don't even wear the veil(niqab) so why would you say that they are 'veiled'? No one 'fears' polygamy. It was practiced by Muhammed(s) and Imam Ali(as)- and you wonder why no-one considers your kind to be muslims. So stop pouring your one-sided rubbish onto Wikipedia or i will just delete it again.IsaKazimi (talk) 16:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Now that I read your point of view, I think you are right I should have not inserted the whole paragraph back in.

All I know is this:

1) Man and women do not pray side by side among Sunnis or Shias. They are segregated. 2) In Sunni and Shia traditions according to Hadith and Sunna, men can divorce their wives (one sided divorce). Alevi's can only have one wife and divorce is forbidden. 3) Wearing the veil is a tradition and is supported by the man-made books of Hadiths and Sunna. Because some women do not cover themselves does not mean this distinction between Alevi and Sunni is not there. Acid attacks on the women who do not cover themselves are quite common in many Islamic countries.

So I am assuming that you take a stand against laws that discriminate women in countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia. Or do you take a more liberal stance only when it suites you?

You ask me "don't try and spread your anti-Islamic Alevi propaganda". You state that "you wonder why no-one considers your kind to be muslims". Are these any indication of your dislike of Alevis or are they words uttered in heat of anger since you assumed you were being attacked? BilgeHan1 (talk) 22:58, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Batinis, whether Alevi or Ismaili have been receiving the same dead end criticism for over one thousand years. It's empty, hypocritical, and lacks intellectual standing. Nonetheless, the passage should be toned down and not include WP:original research. Everything should be cited. -- ♥ pashtun ismailiyya  23:51, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Thanks I have already removed it. When I have some time to put together a better paragraph, I will add it.

BilgeHan1 (talk) 01:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * hmmm...yes i support the government of Iran. would you prefer i support Kemalism where women are denied the right to an education for wearing hijab? "Wearing the veil is a tradition and is supported by the man-made books of Hadiths and Sunna"- It is also commanded in the Qur'an. Or is that man-made also? And the Qur'an also permits polygamy. You are not one of those Alevis who believes that the Qur'an is distorted are you?? "Are these any indication of your dislike of Alevis"- well i would be lying if i said i like them.--IsaKazimi (talk) 17:51, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I support neither the prohibition of hijab or the forcing of hijab, both are against basic human rights as agreed upon by the United Nations. Iran making women wear stricter hijab to pursue higher education is equally immoral. Hijab is commanded in the Qur'an but the specifics are not, which must be interpreted by the Ahl al-Bayt or other spiritual figures who have attained their authority from the Ahl al-Bayt such as the Bektashi leaders. The Qur'an specifically says verse 33:33, “Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, ya Ahl al-Bayt! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.” The Qur'an does permit polygamy, but only under the pretense that one can keep all wives equal, which is extremely rare, which most batini groups recognize. Once again, you criticize the batini groups not because of the Qur'an, but because of your own preconceived notions of the Qur'an. We follow the Prophet (AS) when he said (narrated in Sahih Muslim): "I am leaving amongst you two things, the Qur'an and my Ahl al-Bayt, if you follow them you will never go astray.” Since we batini follow both, we have never gone astray. -- ♥  pashtun ismailiyya  22:55, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, in response to something you said earlier, the niqab is not ruled mandatory by the vast majority of scholars in the world, Sunni and Shi'ah alike. Claiming Alevi women don't veil because they don't wear niqab is just ludicrous.  Ogress  smash!  23:20, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Firstly, would you mind explaining to me what a 'batini' group is sister? Also, @Ogress...no actually most scholars don't consider the niqab to be mandatory. You clearly have little knowledge on Islamic affairs. The niqab is mustahhab which means recommended since is a sunnah of Bibi Fatimah(as). Also, i didn't claim that alevi women are not veiled because they don't wear it. If you can read..you will see that i am saying that you shouldn't call women who wear normal hijab 'veiled' because the veil specificly refers to the niqab. Thats all.--IsaKazimi (talk) 06:28, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ogress knows the difference between mustahab and wajib, she was making that point. And brother, batini refers to groups that distinguish between the zahir (apparent) and the batin (hidden). Batini groups include Ismailiyya, Alevi, Ahl-e Haqq, and other groups. All these groups share an important heritage in this teaching which comes from the Ahl al-Bayt, and which allows Sahib al-Zamaan to elucidate on the hidden meanings of the Holy Qur'an. The famous Twelver scholar Allamah Tabatabai speaks about these beliefs in his book, Shi'a Islam, but only relates them to Ismailiyya. -- ♥ pashtun ismailiyya  06:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh ok. Ithna Ashariyyas also believe in batin .In the way that Imam al-Zaman(atf) will return will the true meaning of the Qur'an and will produce the tafsir of Mawla Ali(as). We also believe in the hidden meaning of the Qur'an only fully understood by the Ahl al-Bayt(as).--IsaKazimi (talk) 06:43, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Twelvers also believe in batin but not in the same way, this is why Allamah Tabatabai said this is an Ismaili belief in his book. I understand Muhammad al-Mahdi in your beliefs will return will the true meaning of the Qur'an, and also the true order of the Qur'an (instead of the Uthmanic order), and the tafsir written by Imam Ali, and also the Book of Fatimah. He will carry with him the Dhulfiqar. Your traditions also state that the Qur'an has several layers of meaning of which the Ahl al-Bayt know. You are very similiar to us, but you still criticize both Alevis and us! Alevism and Ismailism are the same, if one is wrong both are wrong, and one is correct both are correct. -- ♥ pashtun ismailiyya  07:51, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Really? I would of liked to have thought that Ismailiyyas are more similar to Ithna Ashariyyahs then to Alevis. I mean our practices are more similar then to the Alevi's. i.e. we both pray Salah five times per day and fast etc. We both attend masjids whereas Alevis don't. p.s. No, we believe that the Uthmanic order is correct. We just believe that it was already compiled by Amir al-Mu'minin(as) before and the ummah should of accepted his compilation instead of waiting for Uthman to do it.--IsaKazimi (talk) 16:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not care what you believe as long as you do not force others to believe or act the way you think is the right way. I admire Alevis for being respectful of others human rights. It is a quality very hard to find in others. You on the other hand do not seem to care about freedom of religion, except only when it suits your propaganda. It is really sad.66.74.213.97 (talk) 03:22, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * They are not respectful to others when they support the prohibition of hijab in universities and protest when the government tried to repeal it are they?--92.236.56.161 (talk) 05:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * He/she said human rights. According to the European Union the hijab ban is in accordance with human rights (which I and many others disagree with), because it is seen as a political aspect of Islam, since many Muslims claim that Islam is both political and religious. I am not saying it is right and wrong, I am simply clarifying his/her point. -- ♥ pashtun ismailiyya  05:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * But the hijab ban goes against Liberalism(personal freedom) and secularism. To deny someone an education because of religious values is against human rights according to logic. The EU says...So! Are we really going to respect a man-made law that can be changed at any time and raise it to a unquestionable status?--92.236.56.161 (talk) 06:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course not, I was just clarifying their point. Okay, discussion ends now, Wikipedia is not a WP:Forum. If you want to discuss stuff take it to your talk pages. -- ♥ pashtun ismailiyya  07:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes it should of ended along time ago. It was you who dragged it on and changed topic. In conclusion: the article on relations with other muslim women should be written in NPOV.--IsaKazimi (talk) 08:09, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Duh, that's what I do. BilgeHan1 made some changes already and will be pushing NPOV, I'll make edits when I review the article again. -- ♥ pashtun ismailiyya  08:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok. Inshallah i will review it one day also.--IsaKazimi (talk) 10:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

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