Talk:Alex Ferguson/Archive 2

Outside football
I agree with one or two posters above who have suggested that more non-football content needs to be added. Not to a huge degree, since of course football is by far the most important aspect of Ferguson's life, but (as an example) his political views are notable. Just today, for example, I read a letter from him in the Manchester Evening News supporting the Manchester congestion charge proposals. I note the "to-do" entry about socialism, but I hope that political content added will not just talk about his past. Loganberry (Talk) 03:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Honours
In the honours section, he is listed as been a player for two First Division Championship winning clubs, and another as manager. Is there a Wikipedia policy stating that leagues must be referred to in their current incarnations? If not, surely it would be clearer to list these as they were known at the time. Scottish League Division Two for the two as a player, and Scottish League Division One for the one as a manager. mpbx (talk) 19:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

The article also mentions that he won the Scottish Premier League with Aberdeen, but wouldn't it have been the Scottish 1st division back then? - Just checked - it would have been "Scottish Premier Division" which was the nomenclature between mid-70s and mid-90s 93.96.208.213 (talk) 22:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

What about his sunburnt face?
There should be something in the article about his badly burnt face. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.243.253.112 (talk) 16:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean his rosacea? – PeeJay 17:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yep I think it should be included because it's the first thing you see when you look at him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.243.253.112 (talk) 11:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really a defining feature of his character though. In fact, it's fairly trivial. – PeeJay 16:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The barren years
Should be called the lean years. Barren implies they won nothing yet they won a league, cup and league cup. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.95.48 (talk) 12:31, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Manchester United cap
It says in the article that he played for manchester united for one match, but its not included in his stats. How come? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.246.126.39 (talk) 13:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Because it was a friendly. – PeeJay 16:54, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Knighthood?
I could be wrong here, but are you sure Alex Ferguson can actually be given the title "Sir"? As far as I know he is a CBE but you are only a "Sir" if you have a KBE or higher, which a CBE is not. Well, according to Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire. I know I am not citing a proper source, however I am assuming the people who wrote the article on it did. Anyone?
 * For the umpteenth time, Alex Ferguson is a Knight Bachelor, which is separate from the Order of the British Empire, so he retains his CBE. – PeeJay 23:17, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Considered to be one of the best football managers in the history of world football?
The citation/reference for this statement is a debatable english newspaper article with half of its top 10 being british managers. This is like a claim on the EC final '05 page that it's "considered" to be one of the greatest games ever with the bbc as its reference if I recall correctly. I was under the impression that this is supposed to be an encyclopedia based on fact rather than flawed and biased opinion. This seems to be a recurring theme with british-related articles.

Do we need someone else to tell us he is one of the best football managers? Two UEFA Champions League trophies, ten Premier League titles, a FIFA Club World Championship and five FA Cup successes. How does that not make him one of the best?--86.45.150.82 (talk) 18:12, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Because you define "best" as most successful in this case, "The best ever" is a subjective term when it comes to managers or players, it's hard to compare over different era's it's also hard to compare two from the same era as managers manage different players under different circumstances etc... I'd say it's better to say "is one of the most successful managers in club football" or something like that. As there are others who are more successful when it comes to international football (Mário Zagallo), there are quite a big number that have won 2 European Cups, Bob Paisley won 3, and most of them have won a few leagues etc... &mdash; CHANDLER#10 &mdash; 18:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. There's a school of thought that would suggest that he has underachieved, particularly in europe, when you consider the amount of money that has been available to him. He has had the funds to allow him to buy a huge number of players and replace the flops and mistakes he has made. His tactics and on occasions the aforementioned poor buys have cost man utd in europe many times particularly between '00 and '07 but that's not the issue here. The above claim is subjective and dubious and should be replaced with Chandler's suggestion of "is one of the most successful managers in club football".86.45.92.179 (talk) 00:53, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

BBC boycott
Is it worth mentioning how he doesn't do interviews with the BBC anymore? (Wasn't it because of investigations into his son?) Sillyfolkboy (talk) 00:19, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Controversies
Having just read both of the articles on Arsene Wenger and Alex Ferguson, I have added the POV tag to this article. Wenger is, in my opinion, by far the less controversial of the two but his article contains a controversies section and Ferguson's does not. It is clear that this semi-protected article is effectively controlled by MUFC fans such as PeeJay-whatever but can we see some of the balance that Wikipedia expects via comments, plus verification, about the less positive aspects of Ferguson's career? The article as it stands represents an MUFC fan's view and is generally biased in the subject's favour.

For example, this piece: "This contrasted with a disastrous run of form for Newcastle, whose manager, Kevin Keegan, succumbed to the immense pressure of the title race, and the mind games Ferguson famously loves to play with opposing managers. His famous outburst on live television, "I'd love it if we beat them! Love it!" has gone down in football legend as Fergie's greatest personal victory over another manager." Where is the verification and what has happened to the core Wikipedia policy of NPOV? --Orrelly Man (talk) 17:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "this semi-protected article is effectively controlled by MUFC fans such as PeeJay-whatever"? Let's not start pointing fingers, now. I'm not aware of ever having removed a "Controversy" section, and if I have, it was probably because it was horrendously POV or unsourced or both. – PeeJay 19:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Right. Well, a line that says "Fergie's greatest personal victory over another manager" is, as you say, "horrendously POV" and is also unsourced.  Fergie, indeed.  If you are so concerned about removing entries that are "horrendously POV or unsourced or both" I suggest you start with that.  --Orrelly Man (talk) 21:55, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I've given a stab at a rephrase. What does everyone think? Don't be afraid to point out where the article is going a bit POV Orrelly Man. I'd be happy to sort things out with you. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 01:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, if you have a problem with there not being a 'controversies' section, don't be lazy and create it your bloody self? Rather than tag the entire page hoping that someone does it for you.128.86.144.196 (talk) 12:55, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think a "Controversies" section is a pretty partisan approach. This informationa can generally be included within the main of the text. Very little need be expanded upon. (Although I suppose there are many sources for such "major" "controversies" such as pizzagate etc.) Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 04:25, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that there should be a Controversies section - maybe it can just be named "Criticism" section, but at the moment i dont think this article has NPOV and it makes Fegurson out to be flawless and an Angel, when he most certainly is neither.169.234.128.216 (talk) 23:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is something that must have been mentioned thousands of times in the media, so your inference that it might not be verifiable is preposterous. Look for verification yourself if you want. I'm not a Manchester United fan, and that seems to be a straightforward statement of conventional wisdom to me. Choalbaton (talk)


 * I agree there should be a "Criticism and Controversies section" but it should be well sourced and well written. You cant add a POV tag without having a discussion that stall imo. I dont think anyone would dispute that a well written section would be welcome.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Trade Unionism
It is said that Alex Ferguson led a Clydeside strike of apprentices in the 60's. Unfortunately I need to verify and find a source. If true it explains something of his ability with man-management. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NorthTay (talk • contribs) 11:11, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Barcelona update?
Isn't it about time that the entry was updated to include the Barcelona defeat. Then the flag waving about beating Liverpool's record could be removed :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trevorsem (talk • contribs) 07:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Updated, feel free to add or remove whatever you want Spiderone (talk) 09:52, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Owen Signing
I feel the signing of Michael Owen should be added to the Alex Ferguson article because it was a surprise signing that came rather unexpectedly and if successful, the footballing world would view it as an example of Sir Alex's tactical acumen and sharpness. This signing, thus, deserves a place in the article about Sir Alex. Scottishcabbage (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Nationality
Can we change it from Scottish to British?

He is a British citizen and holds a British passport, therefore his nationality is British. Having Scottish as his nationality only serves to confuse non UK reader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.7.108 (talk) 17:11, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In football terms, Ferguson is Scottish. If that confuses you, then maybe you should try the Simple English Wikipedia. – PeeJay 20:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Since when has nationality been decided by 'football' terms?
 * By all means the article can refer to the fact he represented Scotland at football, but when describing him, he should be referred to as British. Scotland isn't even a country, it's a region of a country - the UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.7.108 (talk) 17:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * He is a football manager, so his nationality should be determined on a footballing basis. Take this up at WT:FOOTY if you want a wider opinion. – PeeJay 20:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * While I'd like to point out that I very firmly disagree with PeeJay's assertions about "footballing nationality" (and really, the Simple English comment was wholly unnecessary), there does seem to be a consensus across the project that where someone from the Home Nations self-identifies as being from a particular country within that we use that for their nationality even if their passport doesn't. Call it a quirk of British history. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC

I Agree with Chris, It should be changed to British as he holds a UK passport and not a Scottish one, he also has lived in Britian since 1985, who cares about "footballing nationality", he classes himself as a British citizen, PeeJay is ignorant - But hey 95% of information that appears on Wikipedia is wrong and stubborness from editors who have no idea what they are talking about. I bet PeeJay is American. (Which is common knowledge that the average American knows sod all about British/UK History) As I said this artical should reflect he's a British Manager and plus he is in his 23rd year at Man Utd not 22. 91.107.153.46 (talk) 19:35, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Ummm, I don't think you do agree with me. In addition, I think you'll find that Ferguson has lived in Britain all his life; he has lived in England for twenty years, but Sean Connery lives in Marbella and it doesn't make him a Spaniard. (*cough*) Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)


 * PeeJay is Welsh and as this is a football article shouldn't it follow football rules? We wouldn't say Wayne Rooney or Barry Ferguson are British footballers so why should we say Sir Alex is a British manager? Spiderone  19:40, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

English Footballers. British Managers - If he was managing in Scotland fair enough but he isn't 91.107.153.46 (talk) 20:06, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter. If Steve Bruce started managing in Spain it wouldn't make him Spanish. Anyway, he used to manage Scotland and Aberdeen. Is that Scottish enough? Spiderone  08:53, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Ryan Giggs - Fergie Fledgling?
In the list of players that were considered "Fergies Fledgling's, Ryan Giggs is missing, did he not start breaking into the first team at the same time as those mentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adzer (talk • contribs) 12:20, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Controversies
I've added a new section titled "Controversies" to balance up the article. (Trevorsem (talk) 15:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC))

Edit request from Ferguson1986, 10 May 2010
As a manager As of 9 May 2010. Team	Nat	From	To	Record G	W	D	L	GF	GA	Win % East Stirlingshire 1 June 1974	20 October 1974	17 10 3 4 36 27 58.82

St. Mirren 21 October 1974	31 May 1978	151 63 39 49 252 207 41.72

Aberdeen 1 August 1978	5 November 1986	455 269 106 80 900 364 59.12

Scotland 10 September 1985	13 June 1986	10 3 4 3 8 5 30.00

Manchester United 6 November 1986	Present	1,332 785 308 239 2,421 1,189 58.93

Total	1,965 1,130 460 375 3,617 1,792 57.51

Ferguson1986 (talk) 16:42, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * First of all, what are the exact changes you want making? And second, what is the source you have used for those changes? – PeeJay 17:04, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Ferguson1986, 14 May 2010
Re- Managerial statistics At East-Stirling Sir Alex Ferguson's side Drew 4 games instead of 3. Whilst East-Stirling Lost 4 games instead of 3. Also East-Stirling Scored 36 goals and conceded 27 as opposed to 22 scored and 15 conceded.

At S.T. Mirren Sir Alex Ferguson Drew 39 games as opposed to 49. Whilst S.T. Mirren lost 49 games under Sir Alex Ferguson as opposed to 39. Also whilst at S.T.Mirren scored 252 goals and conceded 207 as opposed to 300 goals scored and 252 conceded as reported.

Aberdeen scored 900 goals instead of 914 and conceded 364 goals instead of 374 goals.

Overall Sir Alex Ferguson has Drawn 460 games and Lost 375 games as a manager and his teams have scored 3,617 goals and conceded 1,792 goals.

Information is from the (Managerial Career Statistics Appendix II pages 566-570) from the Book The Boss: The Many Sides of Sir Alex Ferguson written by Michael Crick in 2002

Ferguson1986 (talk) 16:27, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I have the paperback version of that book and there are no stats in there. Are you sure? – PeeJay 17:42, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Sweeney85, 11 June 2010
In the Individual awards section there is no mention of Sir Alex Ferguson being named Scottish Manager of Year in 1983, 1984, 1985 whilst he was manager of Aberdeen. as well as being voted Barclays Bank English Manager of Year for 1992/93 season after Manchester United won the league.

Sweeney85 (talk) 22:34, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  — fetch ·  comms   23:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Sweeney85, 12 June 2010
editsemiprotected

Sir Alex Ferguson was named Scottish Manager of the Year in 1983, 1984, 1985 according to Page 525 of 2004 International Who's Who By Europa Publications, as well as being mentioned in an article written by Alex Dowdalls In the Daily Record newspaper on December 29th 2001 to celebrate Sir Alex's 60th Birthday. A transcript of the Article can be found on the website www.thefreelibrary.com/THREE+SCORE+FERGIE%3B+Scots+football+legend+Sir+Alex+Ferguson+will...-a081174980

Sir Alex Ferguson was also named English Manager of the Year for the season 1992-93 according to page 88 of Sir Alex The story of 20 Remarkable Years at United by David Meek and Tom Tyrell as well as being mentioned at the Sportsrecord website at http://www.sportsrecords.co.uk/soccer/soccer127x.htm

Sweeney85 (talk) 13:20, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting question.svg Question: I'm sorry, what exactly do you want done? — Mike moral  ♪♫  21:09, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

If it is possible could you add in the Individual awards section that Sir Alex Ferguson was named Scottish Manager of the Year in 1983, 1984 and 1985 as according to Source: as well as adding that Sir Alex was named English Manager of the Year for the 1992-93 season as according to source: Sweeney85 (talk) 12:58, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Rangers Bigotry
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-changes-in-old-firm-bigotry-1110492.html

This suggests that Rangers' culture of hating Catholics did indeed play a part in his departure from Ibrox. Current wording needs to be amended. 90.202.125.74 (talk) 14:49, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Gavin AD, 19 November 2010
There is a spelling mistake here: East Stirlingshire, and poor prose. I can't edit this...

Gavin AD (talk) 22:34, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  — fetch ·  comms   23:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

This line needs changing
This is opinion/subjective:

"He has won 46 trophies as manager which makes him the best British football manager in the history."

He may be '..the most succesful' manager, but not necessarily 'best'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.186.19.174 (talk) 11:02, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

– HonorTheKing (talk) 17:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Changed it, you are right about that

Usage of Fergie
FYI, there is a discussion on the usage of the pagename "Fergie", see Talk:Fergie (singer). 76.66.194.212 (talk) 05:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

El Pais European Manager of the Year
Sir Alex was named El Pais European Manager of the Year in 1999, 2000, 2003 and 2008 By the Uruguayan newspaper El País according to http:// www.rssf.com/miscellaneous/sam-euopy.html. Any coach in Europe is eligable to win the award and on four occasions Ferguson has won it and as this is a prestigious award i feel it should be included in Ferguson's individual honours section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.32.65 (talk) 21:04, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The award isn't notable because it isn't recognised by either UEFA or FIFA. It's an award made a Uruguyan newspaper. — Fly by Night  ( talk )  22:27, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Recalling of loan players
Following the sacking of his 'useless' son, Darren by Preston North End, Alex Ferguson immediatley recalled 3 loan players in what is considered by many to be a very childish action. Rumours are rife that he was also behind the recall of a further 2 Stoke players by his friend Tony Pulis.

The above statement contains unsubstantiated and baseless remarks such as "useless, childish". Suggest changing it to "Following the sacking of Sir Alex Ferguson's son, Darren by Preston North End, Sir Alex immediately recalled loaned players Ritchie De Laet, Joshua King and Matthew James from Preston under its new managerial system. Sir Alex later explained that it was the players' own request not to return to Preston after the change of manager. In which case, De Laet and King's loan periods were ending just 2 days after the recall and James was already injured for the rest of his loan period. Stoke City Boss, Tony Pulis followed soon after in recalling 2 former Manchester United players from Preston as well, stating the need for the players to supplement his team's intensive schedule.

Amasokid (talk) 16:32, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Partly done: I added the above info, except for the last sentence, which was grammatically incorrect to the point where I wasn't sure exactly what it meant, but my best guess is that it isn't really necessary info anyway. Also, I didn't use "Sir", as WP:Honorifics requires that the article be consistent, and this article was not using his honorary title throughout. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:24, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Ryan Giggs should be included as one of the fledglings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.187.204 (talk) 17:57, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Oversight in sentence formation.
Edit semi-protected Early April saw Newcastle manager Kevin Keegan's famous outburst on live television ("I'd love it if we beat them! Love it!") is generally regarded as the moment that Ferguson gained the upper hand against his opponent.

I think the is should be preceded by an and.

Early April saw Newcastle manager Kevin Keegan's famous outburst on live television ("I'd love it if we beat them! Love it!") and is generally regarded as the moment that Ferguson gained the upper hand against his opponent.

--Srigopk (talk) 10:57, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Added a comma too. -Atmoz (talk) 18:03, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

The season is not clearly identified.
Ferguson's preparations for the season were disrupted by a high-profile dispute with major shareholder John Magnier, over the ownership of the racehorse Rock of Gibraltar. When Magnier and business partner J. P. McManus agreed to sell their shares to American business tycoon Malcolm Glazer, it cleared the way for Glazer to acquire full control of the club. This sparked violent protests from United fans, and disrupted Ferguson's plans to strengthen the team in the transfer market. In spite of this, United looked to solve their goalkeeping and midfield problems. For this, they signed the Dutch keeper Edwin van der Sar from Fulham and Korean star Park Ji-Sung from PSV.

The season was one of transition. On 18 November, Roy Keane officially left the club, his contract ended by mutual consent. United failed to qualify for the knock-out phase of the UEFA Champions' League. In the January transfer window Serbian defender Nemanja Vidić and French full-back Patrice Evra were signed, and the side finished in second place in the league, behind runaway leaders Chelsea. Winning the League Cup was a consolation prize for lack of success elsewhere. Ruud van Nistelrooy's future at Old Trafford seemed to be in doubt after not starting in the Carling Cup final, and he departed at the end of the season.

Over the two paragraphs the season being referred to becomes hazy. For example, the Rock of Gibraltar ownership issue occurred when the 2004-05 season began, whereas Roy Keane left the club on 18 November 2005, i.e, in the 2005-06 season. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_keane

--Srigopk (talk) 05:54, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Bob Paisley
Despite his record, Alex Ferguson is still striving to match Bob Pailey's record of 13 major trophies in 9 seasons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.8.224.196 (talk) 21:53, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

As pointed out above Sir Alex Ferguson has not won 13 major trophies in 9 seasons but Ferguson has also achieved numerous feats that Paisley didn't achieve in his career as highlighted below:

Ferguson- Man.utd- 12 Leagues, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 9 Charity Shields, 2 U.E.F.A. Champions Leagues, 1 Cup Winner's Cup 1 U.E.F.A. Super Cup, 1 Intercontinental Cup, 1 F.I.F.A. Club World Cup (36) Aberdeen- 3 Leagues, 4 FA Cups, 1 League Cup, 1 Cup Winner's Cup, 1 U.E.F.A. Super Cup (10) ST.Mirren- 1 Scottish First Division(1)to give Ferguson 33 major trophies and 47 competitive trophies overall

Paisley - 6 leagues, 3 League Cups, 5 Charity Shields, 1 UEFA Cup, 3 European Cups, 1 UEFA Super Cup (19)to give Paisley 13 major trophies and 19 trophies overall.

By the same token you could say Paisley will never win as many major trophies or competitive trophies as Ferguson and Paisley will never win the same amount of League Championships, FA Cups or win as many professional games in management as Ferguson. The only upperhand Paisley has on Ferguson is that he has won one more European cup/Champions League than Ferguson, though Ferguson has reached one more final and could yet equal Paisley record in the future.217.137.130.27 (talk) 21:00, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Whoever wrote this illogical crap is a complete idiot. Aside from "statistics", Fergie and "Uncle Bob" got along extremely well and were never in direct competition. The facts are that Liverpool faded post-Hillsborough and, under Fergie, the MUFC star rose and shone. Until Fergie in 1994, MUFC did not win the title for 27 seasons and it looks as if Liverpool are about to emulate that. Why can't so-called football supporters support football instead of trying to score brownie points and confirming the view of all intelligent persons that they are a set of brain-dead morons? Enjoy the game, cretins, and never mind who won what in 199x. --109.156.147.92 (talk) 21:11, 11 May 2013 (UTC)