Talk:Alexander Pechersky

What's the name?
So is it Pechersky or Peczerski? --Patpecz 23:03, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The only spelling I had seen was Pechersky until you mentioned Peczerski. The Polish version of Wikipedia also has Peczerskiego. So I've added them all. Thanks! --Traal 19:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we should change it to "Peczerski". Pecherski is the phonetic pronunciation in English of the Polish pronunciation "Peczerski", while Peczerski stays true to the original spelling.  Remember how many spellings where changed when immigrants arrived to the US?  Could this be a similar case?--Patpecz 07:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Original spelling would be in Cyryllic. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I know a Pole who met Pechersky who pronounced it "puh-CHAR-skee" --whatever that's worth. Cramyourspam (talk) 00:33, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Complete re-write
If you have anything to say regarding this, please do. I am 100% fluent in Russian and English (11 years in Russia and 20 years in USA.) Please ignore spelling and wacky characters. Meishern (talk) 06:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Alright. I completely rewrote this page and added a photo. There are now references and it looks more in line with what Russian Wiki has + more Russian Wiki - Pechersky Meishern (talk) 10:18, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Strange re-writes
If you plan on editing this article by deleting 50% of the carefully researched and referenced paragraphs using an IP, forget it, because I will revert every time. This is a nice article well documented with multiple references. You can't just delete 50% of it, compress it and call it a job well done. Pechersky lived a long life outside the couple of weeks he was in Sobibor and this article covers it. Add some new information instead of removing valid, referenced, informative, non-POV, well written data. Meishern (talk) 18:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Not the only successful uprising
There was also a successful uprising and mass breakout at Treblinka - on 2 August 1943. Norvo (talk) 01:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The incident at Treblinka was not an uprising. Some people ran away. People escaped from every camp. The difference between Sobibor and Treblinka was that in Sobibor the majority of prisoners ran away, SS Germans were murdered, and it was an organized plan. In Triblinka escapes, there were groups of 2-7 people who escaped. That can not be considered an uprising. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 09:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * No, the Treblinka uprising was an uprising as detailed in planing and execution as described here. Guards were overpowered, Germans were killed. The difference may be in the ultimate goal of the uprising. In Treblinka the aim was to expose the Holocaust and release information on the camp; one live witness would be enough. At Sobibor the aim seems to have been to "save the people". Well, the news on Treblinka was already out and nobody seemed to care... -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe my source is this book. (Read the cover for the overview.) I cannot confirm, as I only borrowed the book from my fathers bookshelf some twenty years ago. Here is a full reference:
 * -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:29, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:29, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * You are correct. The mistake is mine. An article should be written about this event. For that matter the Sobibor article itself needs a rewrite as well as Treblinka. I compiled an extensive number of referenced info, its just between medical school and mba classes, with 4 daughters, I am swamped with crap to do. heheh. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 01:04, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Ukrainian auxiliary guards?
User is arguing that the Ukrainian auxiliary guards were not Ukrainian, as some of them were other ethnicities. At the same time in the article on Babi Yar he is arguing, that the Kiovan Russo-phone multi-ethnic (non-Jewish) citizens of the Ukrainian SSR shot at Babi Yar should all be called "Ukrainian". What defines the guards here as "Ukrainian" is not only that they spoke the Ukrainian language, but more importantly, that they swore allegiance to Ukrainian nationalism. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 16:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the main Sobibor article the guards were multi-ethnic, not necessarily Ukrainian, althogh a significant number of them were in fact ethnic Ukrainians, undisputably. I myself personally knew 2 Trawniki men, and had to wash my hands after handshakes with them. However, we have no evidence that the guard ever swore any allegiance to any Ukrainian cause, or even were Nationalists. The Babi Yar discussion should go there, not here.--Galassi (talk) 16:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, maybe the "swore allegiance" is too strong an expression. One could just say that they self-identified as "Ukrainians". However, in the 1942 context such self-identification cannot be taken lightly. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Their self-identification would be a mystery, unless documented.--Galassi (talk) 17:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed --Львівське (talk) 04:57, 7 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Every German SS identified and referred to the guards as Ukrainian. Galassi has his own views regarding Ukrainian role during the Holocaust which conflict with multiple historical sources. Despite Sobibor's location in Poland, Nazis trusted Ukrainians and repeatedly used them in every death camp. I am a bit busy now with another project, but in 2 weeks I will return with 10 references regarding Ukrainians in this article, as well as a few others which are being slowly hijacked with the goal of revisionist rewriting of factual history. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 00:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "Every German SS identified and referred to the guards as Ukrainian". Can you source that?--Galassi (talk) 03:17, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I put 5 references as to all guards being Ukrainian. If you revert me, be careful. Meishern (talk) 14:57, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Those are some radical, unreliable sources you've got there. Wow. I'm not going to dispute that Ukrainian guards were there, but can we get some better sources here? --Львівське (talk) 04:57, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Radical sources? Pick any newspaper in USA, UK, Germany, Austria, Poland and I will reference it from there. They were technically Soviet since Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union. They were just all born in the area that is currently part of Ukraine. I can add 20 more references if you want. I am just not sure at which point you will be satisfied. Let’s say I put 5 references from different SS officers working at Sobibor from trial transcripts stating that every auxiliary guard was Ukrainian, and put 5 references from one main stream newspaper from the above countries. Would this settle the dispute? Cheers! Meishern (talk) 09:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Very strange statements
It is stated that Pecherskij was "As an escaped POW, Pechersky was conscripted into a special penal battalions, conforming to Stalin's Order No. 270 and was sent to the front to fight German forces in some of the toughest engagements of the war" It is obviously false. In the Executive Order of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union from 30.05.1951 and other documents like commendation list from 1949 about awarding A. Pecherskij stated that he fought in the 15 assault battalion 1st Baltic Front, not in a penal battalion. This assault batallions were special batallions for former POWs completely different from penal batallions (for example commanders in this batallions, excluding batallion and company's commanders was also POWs but in penal batallions all commanders was special officers, it was standard salary in assault batalions, all soldiers had their own ranks as before etc, see order приказ НКО № Орг/2/1348 about assuaul batallions). "in 1948, during Stalin's persecution of Jews, known as the 'Rootless cosmopolitan' campaign targeting those who allegedly lacked true loyalty and commitment to Stalinism and the Soviet Union, Pechersky was arrested and imprisoned in the GULAG labor camp system along with his brother. Only after Stalin's death in 1953 and mounting international pressure for his release, was Pechersky freed. His brother however succumbed to a diabetic coma while in prison." It was impossible that person in GULag was presented to the medal in 1949 and awarded in 1951! On the contrary, under the Executive Order of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR (and Stalin was member of this Sovet!) Pecherskij was awarded two medals.--Вантус (talk) 22:11, 21 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I wrote parts of this article including those 2 statements, with their references. At the time, 3 years ago, I could find no reference regarding the years or the exact names of medals Pechersky was awarded, but only that he was awarded for bravery. You referenced a very interesting website, an excellent website might I add, according to which he was awarded 6 medals all on the same day in 1951.


 * I took a look again now at more sources, unavailable 3 years ago and found that every source agreed that he was placed in a Shtrafbat in 1944. Sources also agree that he was watched by KGB in 1946, and during Stalin's 'Rootless Cosmopolitan' Campaign he was kicked out of Communist Party and lost his job. Rootless Cosmopolitan campaign came to an end in 1949. So perhaps that and his slowly growing fame around the world made them give him his medals? Speculation on my part. However if you understand Russian, this is a good recent documentary including his time after Sobibor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpplDlRCgvY?t=33m14s . This is also something new with good reference selection http://holocaust.su/rubric19/article64 (page 2 text and references page 3).


 * However nothing but that one original source mentions that he was actually imprisoned in a Gulag, just that he was repressed; and I found a new reference that states his brother committed suicide in 1957 after being arrested. So I think it would be fair to make that change (remove Gulag) if nobody objects. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 12:52, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

A side comment
Much emphasis is put in this article on the first-person account of Thomas Toivi Blatt, who was born in 1927 and during the uprising of October 1943 was only 16 years old, whilst supposedly posessing intricate knowledge of the Pechersky's plan all the way through. They both met in 1980 in the Soviet Union. Blatt flew in from Los Angeles and (like all Americans) was treated by the Soviets at Rostov with suspicion. Pechersky was in his seventies and spoke Russian. This was perhaps the time when the particulars of the uprising were recounted. Unlike Lanzmann, Polish-born Blatt makes no mention of the presence of any translators during the interviews. He makes no mention of taping the story on a tape-recorder either. Due to highly sensitive nature of this material, we need to limit ourselves to the circumstances of their meeting rather than trying to state things about Sobibor as facts in Wikipedia's editorial voice. Poeticbent talk 16:33, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

The chief difference between the prisoner uprising at Sobibor, and for example, the uprisings at Treblinka and Birkenau, was that the Soviet soldiers were involved including Pechersky who took the leadership role. Obviously, the presence of the Soviet POWs at Sobibor drew considerable interest from the Soviet NKVD after World War Two, and greatly impacted on the western court proceedings due to their absence at the trials. The immediate result was that no independent testimony from Pechersky exists. All information written in Russian was filtered by the Soviet political apparatus.  Poeticbent  talk 12:37, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

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