Talk:Alexander Prokhanov

edit war
*1 June 2014.
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patriot Donbassa (talk • contribs) 12:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Some people just can't let their fingers off from topics they know nothing about, especially when emboldened by being spared from sanctions. The article is about Prokhanov, not Zavtra. The best and undisputed qualification for his gutter paper would be 'communist and ultranationalist'. Other possible things - antisemitic, quasi-fascist (as some claim) are not for the lede, at least not here. Both 'extreme left' and 'extreme right' should be omitted from the lede, and indeed this article. Both are disputable and confusing. How can a communist be far-right? Even if it is possible, it would need additional explanations. Why? Simply because VM can't admit he is not well-versed in the subject and likes to edit war against his dozens of perceived enemies? See WP:NOTHERE. --Donbass Patriot Man (talk) 12:20, 1 June 2014 (UTC)


 * That's all nice. Now, please stop removing well sourced information. Or just stop sockpuppeting all together.Volunteer Marek (talk) 12:22, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Just try Czarist rule in Poland, Germanization of ancient Polish lands (such as Drezno) and the like. This was meant as a friendly advice. Don't get offended. You've even read Goethe as I just saw. You must be an educated person after all then. Donbass Patriot Man (talk) 12:26, 1 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Right. More taunting and more "yes I'm a sockpuppet, catch me if you can" immaturity.Volunteer Marek (talk) 12:41, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

This notorious person claimed that you just have to repeat a lie numerous times and people will believe you. You are repeating the nonsense about me being a sock since my 5th edit I guess. Yeah, well, continue crying wolf... No arguments explaining your revert warring spree, nothing constructive - only insinuations and smear.


 * This edit of yours - reverting a constructive edit of a now banned editor you also had conflicts with - just shows that you don't wish to reform yourself. Continue like that and you're gone sooner than you'd expect. Donbass Patriot Man (talk) 12:53, 1 June 2014 (UTC )


 * You found that very quickly didn't you? Just like you found an obscure comment from the same user to put in the 3RR report. Let me also point out that it's nonsense to call my edit "revenge edit warring" when YOU showed up here AFTER me to revert me. Stop playing around and trying to start trouble.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:42, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I didn't even touch your today's edit here, though I don't fancy removing sourced information just like that. Donbass Patriot Man (talk) 13:58, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

See Sockpuppet investigations/Lokalkosmopolit. Dougweller (talk) 13:55, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Neutrality questioned
One of the two outrageous statements here (namely, labeling Zavtra 'extreme right') might be 'sourced' (although the direct quote from the book in question would be here very welcome), another – concerning The Day's alleged anti-Semitism - unsourced (and it's easy to see why: some of the most controversial articles for that newspaper were provided by the ethnic Jews, among them General Rokhlin, Prokhanov's friend and Yeltsin's foe), but this makes no difference: they make the article biased. The neutrality tag will stay here as long as these outrageous mini-tags ('right wing' and 'anti-Semitic') do. -- Evermore2 (talk) 21:53, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Evermore, you seem to be suggesting that Wikipedia ought to have a policy of not accepting books and articles written by Jews as reliable sources. Normal people do not accept this POV.--  Toddy1 (talk) 22:17, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Toddy1, you seem to be suggesting something quite extraordinary. Because a) how could I possibly knew the authors in question (Martin Durham, Margaret Power) were Jewish?, b) the only Jew mentioned in my post was Lev Rokhlin, the legendary Russian army general, who was the (allegedly 'anti-Semitic') Day's newspaper regular contributor. I return the neutrality tag and suggest we go peacefully hand in hand to the administrator's board, for I find your labeling me the 'POV editor' insulting and unfair, to say the least. -- Evermore2 (talk) 22:48, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you have a problem with RS? Perhaps you should take this to 'the administrator's board'. I'd be fascinated to know how you would justify tagging the article based on your assertion of the use of 'right wing' and 'anti-Semitic' is 'outrageous'. The POV tag does not stay at your whim: you need to bring something more substantial (namely RS) to the table if you wish to contest the neutrality of this article. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:47, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * That was a bit more than a personal whim that prompted me to place the tag. Besides, I find totally wrong the way Toddy1 labeled me a 'POV editor' and all but accused me of anti-Semitism, for there was nothing in my original comment to provoke such a reaction. If further explanations on my behalf are needed, here they are: - a) to call a newspaper for which several prominent Jewish (even Israeli) authors have contributed, 'anti-Semitic' one needs a strong source to rely upon (and the accusation goes unsourced in the article), and b) the ref backing the 'extreme right' bit [in the lede] can be seen as a proof only of that the book called "New Perspective on the Transnational Right" (by the authors mentioned) does exist, nothing more. Has it been indeed read/used as a source, not just namechecked? I rather doubt that Martin Durham & Margaret Power could qualify Zavtra as an 'extreme right' newspaper, - and it's with this extreme part that I have problems here. I regard the article biased because it implies this author (who, mind you, for several years had a weekly slot at the respectable/pro-liberal Ekho Moskvy radio station) is anti-Jewish/neo-Fascist, which even his dectractors would admit he isn't. And please, do see this. -- Evermore2 (talk) 08:35, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * " I rather doubt that Martin Durham & Margaret Power could qualify Zavtra as an 'extreme right' newspaper" - "the editor of the extreme right paper, Zavtra". So yes, they do qualify it as extreme right.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:49, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, I've no reason to mistrust you, although a mere statement like this isn't enough for a Wikipedia article, don't you think? Still, labeling Zavtra an 'extreme right' newspaper is a highly disputable statement, so some neutral/attributive way should be here used, like "... described as 'extreme right' by..."). Except that - elsewhere, not in the lede. -- Evermore2 (talk) 10:22, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe there's a link in the ref given to the source itself. Also, this source isn't unique or particular in labeling Zavtra "extreme right", it's a common designation.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:52, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd hate to state the obvious, but, as we all know, the primal paradigm of neutrality is: Avoid stating opinions as facts. In other words: not the "extreme-right/anti-Semitic newspaper", but "the newspaper regarded as extreme right/anti-Semitic by [...]". As for whether this 'designation' being 'common' or not - I wouldn't have started all this if it were. Common designations for Zavtra (at least here in Russia) are: 'oppositional', 'pro-Imperial', 'anti-liberal', 'ultra-conservative', 'nationalistic', 'patriotic' - depending on where you stand. "Extreme right" is synonymous with "neo-Fascist", and Zavtra stays safely away from that margin. There have been 'extreme right' papers (looking more like leaflets) in Russia, but where are they now, - well, its a long story, not for me to relate (or indeed be well-informed about). The so-called 'extremism' is regarded as a criminal offense in Russia, which is a matter of another kind of controversy, for this umbrella term has been used as a handy instrument by the authorities here, never keen on tolerating any opposition. -- Evermore2 (talk) 21:04, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced citation
The following two sentences are not really covered by the citation that was provided for them. Whilst there is little doubt that the statements are true, they need a citation that properly supports them:
 * In the summer of 1992, Prokhanov turned the association of the readers of the anti-Semitic newspaper "Day" into a political movement. During the Russian constitutional crisis of 1993, he participated in the defense of the Moscow White House.

The citation provided was:
 * Russia: Experiment with a People, Service, Robert, 2006, Harvard University Press, 225-226.

This citation does cover other statements in the article. I have moved the citation to statements it supports.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:27, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
 * That Prokhanov's newspaper Den was antisemitic.
 * That Den was closed down during the emergency of September 1993 by presidential decree. (See also p144-145)

Proposed expansion
I am going to expand the article in as little edits as possible, hence a short preview. As for the "extreme right" tag in the lede, I decided against challenging it, - after all, that is apparently how the newspaper viewed as everywhere except for Russia. Further down the line I used a more careful wording.

During the Russian constitutional crisis of 1993, he participated in the defense of the Moscow White House. – I removed this, having found no confirmation whatsoever, looks like Prokhanov wasn't in the White House, not in 3-4 October, 1993. As for 'polyphonism' of his prose - well, the Works section is well overdue, so maybe something will emerge, confirming/expanding this statement. As for now, it looks meaningless. -- Evermore2 (talk) 20:53, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

As for two failed attempts by 173.73.216.75 to post something untrue/unsourced, I've got the impression, (s)he mixes Prokhanov upwith Albert Makashov who in the late 1990s indeed made a lot of fuss with similarly absurd calls (in 1999, speaking at a rally, he said something to the effect that 'the time has come for the Jews to be driven out of this country'). And Prokhanov's Chechen War novels could be seen rather as pro-Chechen, their leitmotif being that the Chechen fighters were not the real enemies of Russia, while Yeltsin and Co. were. -- Evermore2 (talk) 21:30, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

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