Talk:Alexander Stewart, 4th High Steward of Scotland

Untitled
Alexander Stewart, 4th High Steward of Scotland Birth: 1214 in Dundonald, Kyle,Ayr,Scotland Death: 1283 in Scotland Marriage: Jean [of Bute] Macrory b: 1218 in Bute,Scotland He married Jean MACRORY of Bute.Birth: 1214/1220 Dundonald, Scotland. Marriage: Abt. 1242 Of,, Scotland daughter of James (Seumas) Macrory, Lord of Bute.

4th Great Alexander Stewart ,Steward of Scotland. Born 1214. Died 1283. He married Jean MACRORY OF BUTE Marriage: Abt. 1242 Of,, Scotland Principal commander under King Alexander III at the Battle of Largs 2 Oct 1263 when the Scottish army defeated the Norwegians. In 1264 he invaded the Isle of Man. ALAN, EARL OF MENTETH, joined Robert Bruce, in his claim to the throne of Scotland, and was captured by the English, in whose custody be died, leaving a dau., MARY, COUNTESS OF MENTETH.

Children 1. Sir John Stewart b: ABT. 1245 in Bonkyl,Scotland

Sir John Stewart, of Bonkill, Berwickshire born circa 1250, killed in battle 22 July 1298 Falkirk Wallace praised his bravery above all men. He brought his own Islesmen from Bute and his wife's Border archers to aid the national cause, but was killed fighting for Sir William Wallace at the battle of Falkirk. married Margaret de Bonkill, daughter of Alexander de Bonkill.

2. Sir James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Scotland [Royal Line] b: 1243 in Dundonald,Kyle,Ayr,Scotland

Alexander's son James, who died in 1309, was the 5th High Stewart of Scotland. From his Brother, Sir John Stewart of Bonkyl, who fell fighting along with Wallace for the cause of Scottish independence at the Battle of Falkirk in 1208, a number of famous Scottish families took their origin. The line of the eldest son, Sir Alexander, became Earls of Angus, and ended in a female who carried the earldom to the Douglas's, who were Earls of Angus and Dukes of Hamearldom at this present day. From his second son, Sir Alan Stewart of Darnley, descended the Stewart Earls of Lennox, whose heir, Lord Darnley married Mary Queen of Scots, and became ancestor of the later Stewart Kings. From Sir Alan also descended the Earls of Galloway, who are chiefs of the Stewarts presently. From Bonkyl's fourth son came the Stewarts of Innermeath in Strathearn, from whom descended the Stewart Lords of Lorn, the Stewarts of Murthly and Grandtully, the Stewart Earls of Athol, and the Stewarts of Appin. From Bonkyl's sixth son, Sir Robert, came the Stewarts of Allanton and their cadets.

3. Elizabeth, b: abt. 1250, m. William "le Hardi" Douglas, b. Abt 1240, d. 1298

4. Miss Stewart, b: Abt 1268, m. Sir Alexander Lindsay Notes : His marriage to Jean, daughter and heiress of James, lord of Bute, and, in her right, he seized both the Isles of Bute and than of Arran. After the death of her father, his lands were seized by her uncle Ranald’s descendants. Through her husband’s family, the Stewarts, she prosecuted a claim for the return of the islands of Arran and Butte from Ruairi mac Ranald; they eventually obtained the lands after some resistance. Alexander commanded the right wing of the Scots army at the battle of Largs, 1263.  Alexander attended St. Louis of France to the Holy War and he was the principal commander under King Alexander III at the Battle of Largs October 2, 1263 when the Scottish army defeated the Norwegians. He received from Alexander III a grant of the Barony of Garlies in Galloway on November 30, 1263. In 1264 he invaded the Isle of Man. Sir Alexander’s Arms, as shown on his Seal attached to the Ragman Roll, were three buckles, and several of his grandsons and their descendants accordingly carried “buckles” in their Arms also. Meantime, Bonkly's nephew, Walter, the sixth High Stewart, had greatly distinguished himself in the cause of King Robert the Bruce (a cousin of both the Stewart and the Boyds), at the great Battle of Bannockburn, and at the heroic defense of Berwick. As a reward, he received the hand of Bruce's only daughter, the Princess Marjory. Their married life was short: as she rode by the knock between Renfrew and Paisley, Marjory was thrown from her horse and killed. She was with child at the time of the fall, but the child was saved by the Caesarean operation. The spot was long marked by a monolith known as Queen Bleary's Stone. The boy lived, however, and though he inherited his mothers weakness of the eyes, played a heroic part in Scottish history.

From that old possession of his family, the Island of Bute, which his ancestor had won from the Norsemen, he sailed forth to attack Dunoon to overthrow the entire conquest of Edward Baliol. When he came to the throne as King Robert II, in 1317, he had earned it by his sword almost as heroically as his grandfather Robert the Bruce. A point which has not been sufficiently noted by Scottish historians, is that from the two marriages of Robert II, a large proportion of the later troubles of the Stewart Kings and of the Kingdom of Scotland took rise. For centuries it was questioned if his first union with Elizabeth Murr of Rowallan, had ever been legitimized. In consequence, the descendants of his second wife, Euphemia Ross, again and again made claim to the throne. From this cause arose directly the murder of King James I, in 1437. Stewart and the Douglas's war against James II in 1450. James I, was slain by the descendants of King Robert's second wife, whom he had dispossessed of the Royal Earldom of Strathern. The ambition of the Earls of Douglas was directly stimulated by the fact that they had inherited the claims of the family of Euphemia Ross and of the earlier great house of Comyn.


 * All the above information was posted on 29 September 2006 by User:63.224.226.26.


 * Thats all very good but for such wads of information to be included in the article we require sources for it all, especially anything contentious. One other thing I would say in reference to all this family up until (John) Robert III is that their surname was Steward, not Stewart (or for that matter the French spelling - Stuart). Regards, David Lauder (talk) 12:26, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Alexander's wife: a supposed granddaughter of Angus, son of Somerled
David Sellar in Hebridean Sea-Kings (p195) says this for Angus: "Of Angus nothing is known, save that he fought and defeated his brother Ranald in 1192, and was killed along with his three sons in 1210. His line died out". In the corresponding footnote his goes on: "The ascription by later historians to Angus, son of Somerled, of a son James whose daughter and heiress married the Alexander the Steward (e.g. Scots Peerage, v, 31) is now recognised as erroneous". I've noticed that, for the most part, this article is based on 19th century sources. Some more modern ones might be able to sort out the identity of his wife. At the moment, I'm not sure how to tackle this. Is the whole identity of Alexander's wife erroneous (like her name and parentage), or just the fact that she was a granddaughter of Angus?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:17, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Given what Sellar says, I wonder why the text (about Jean) remains unchanged - Sellar's reservation is not even acknowledged!!?? As it stands the claim on the page is ridiculous: to suggest that Jean Macrory born before 1210 should not have had a child until 1260. This is the sort of thing which brings Wikipedia into disrepute. First of all surnames had not taken over, so surely her father was Rory (or variant) - so if a stopgap is required (and I think not) surely this should be the assumption. [OK, there is a further problem here as "she" would not have been "mac" - so it is more likely that Rory was her Grandfather and strictly she should probably have been "Vc Rory". However it remains the case that this Rory would not have been old enough to have been killed in battle in 1210.]

Second I estimate James' birth c1251 rather than 1260 (1260 makes matters worse). It is, therefore, likely that she was born c1230x5 - 20 years after the supposed death of her supposed father. Third Given that she was the heiress it is likely that her father was born c1200x10, before the deaths of 1210, but too young to take part in any fighting at that time. Fourth so far as I can see the name James was unknown in Scotland at that time. I suspect that James Stewart was given his name because his father was especially appreciative of Santiago (and he did go on Pilgrimage to Compostela). For Jean's father to have been called James one must suppose that there was a reason to introduce this name c1200x10. There is no good reason for this. Now let us suppose that she was indeed a descendant of Angus mac Sorley... Angus is likely to have been born c1150, making the supposed Rory (b.1200+) his grandson. From all that his said here, it would appear that the name of the intervening generation is unknown - surely this should be left acknowledged as such. [As above it seems more likely that it was Rory bc1175 and Jean's unknown father born c1200.] I presume that the claim that Jean's father was James is based upon her first son being James - well this is in any case against protocol (surely James' father outranked his mother) and the pilgrimage implies an alternative reason for the name (I presume that Alexander invoked the support/intercession of St James during his time on crusade where things were extremely sticky). Looking at the children it appears that Alexander Stewart paid no attention to traditional naming patterns. Freuchie (talk) 17:58, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Origins
"He is said to have accompanied King Louis IX of France on the Seventh Crusade (1248–1254).[1] In 1255 he was one of the councillors of King Alexander III of Scotland, though under age."

Someone has got their wires crossed and this needs fixed asap. If he was old enough to go on crusade he was not "under age" in 1255. He was a councillor to Alexander when ALEXANDER was under age. Not only that but as pointed out on this talk page he was married around 1242.Freuchie (talk) 19:58, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Marriage and Issue
The Andrew Stewart mentioned here is duplicated in the next generation. I understand that this is problematic - but this fact should be flagged in the text. Which I have done.Freuchie (talk) 14:49, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Dubious, or spurious, children
I've deleted one child for whom no source was offered and, unless there is opposition, propose to delete Andrew. Belle Fast (talk) 12:24, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Text relating to this possibly non-existent individual is now below (it was added by a user under a lifetime ban, hiding under his ISP address): Andrew Stewart, third son, who married the daughter of James Bethe. His son is supposed in many sources (possibly most notably the Heraldic Visitations of Cambridgeshire ) to have been Sir Alexander Steward "The Fierce", whose existence has been questioned by some historians, and who is quoted in bogus ancient pedigrees as the ancestor of the English gentry family of "Steward" or "Styward", of the Isle of Ely in Cambridgeshire, from which family was the mother of Lord Protector Oliver Cromwell,  who (therefore ironically) tried to bring an end to the royal house of Stuart. However "the Lord Protector himself never took it seriously, though he did once joke that his mother was a Stuart at a drinking party in Edinburgh in 1651". This family, of which the most influential was Robert Steward (d. 1557) Dean of Ely, assumed the coat of arms of the Scottish Stewarts, Or, a fess chequy argent and azure, as is visible on their elaborate monuments in Ely Cathedral. In addition they bore a supposed augmentation of honour (Argent, a lion rampant gules debruised by a bend raguly or) said to have been granted to Sir Alexander Steward "The Fierce" by King Charles VI of France (1380-1422). However the supposed familial connection between the Stewart family of Scotland, Hereditary High Stewards and kings of Scotland, and the English "Steward" or "Styward" family of the Isle of Ely, has been definitively disproven by the renowned genealogists Horace Round (Studies in Peerage and Family History, 1907) and Walter Rye (Two Cromwellian Myths, 1925, and The Steward Genealogy and Cromwell's "Royal Descent"). Elizabeth Stewart (d. before 1288), who married Sir William Douglas the Hardy, Governor of Berwick-upon-Tweed. She was the mother of the James Douglas, Lord of Douglas ("Good Sir James Douglas"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Belle Fast (talk • contribs) 15:00, 19 September 2022 (UTC)