Talk:Alfredo Ottaviani

Untitled
The link from Franjo Šeper points to an empty page. Fixing the link to Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani makes the naming in the succession list inconsistent.

Wouldn't a redirect link make more sense here? - ClaudeMuncey

I've removed this page's entry from Requested moves due to a lack of consensus on the move. If this changes, feel free to add another request. --Lox (t,c) 19:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

United Press Internationl reports that Ottaviani was elected Pope on October 26, 1958, which invalidates the election of Angelo Roncalli as Pope John XXIII to days later.

I just pulled this from the article -- this is a variant on a favorite urban legend of sedevecantists: that John XXIII was not validly elected. Usually, the real pope was supposed to be Siri. This grew out of a real incident at the 1958 conclave where the smoke looked white when it was supposed to be black, confusing everyone. This was debunked decades ago, but it still makes the rounds ClaudeMuncey 13:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

This makes no sense
The article says "Ottaviani, while opposed to the separation of Church and State and granting equal rights to all religions, supported religious tolerance—suppressing public manifestations of non-Catholic religions when possible". This makes no sense. It seems to be defining religious tolerance as intolerance. Jhobson1 13:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In earlier days when Catholics meant "tolerance" they meant charity and love you show to something wrong or irritating. The argument goes that you only use the word "tolerate" for something you basically find in error or bad. People don't usually say "let's be tolerant to democracy" or "you should tolerate his good hygiene." So from that perspective members of other religions were to be treated with love and charity, but forbidden from public recognition as they were in error. Privately they could do whatever they wished as long as this did not break the rules of society. (Most nations still would supress religions if they do that. If a religion required members to take hashish they would likely face some suppression in the US) Just like a scientist may tolerate an individual who believes in Intelligent Design, but support the suppression of ID in public schools as being pseudoscientific error. I admit though that kind of strictness is something I'm glad I never lived under. There are times I worry that makes me a bad Catholic, but I don't think so.--T. Anthony 05:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Saint Faustina Kowalska
"In 1959, under Ottaviani's direction, the newly appointed Pope John XXIII was presented with a list of books to be placed on the Index of Forbidden Books and he signed the decree to that effect. Sister Faustina Kowalska's diary was among the banned books, and it remained on the Index for almost 20 years."

"20 years"? That's impossible, 'cause the Index was officially abolished by pope Paul VI, methinks, in 1964. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.98.100.197 (talk) 05:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I do not know about the specific case of the diary, but the Index was never abolished. When the Holy Office was renamed to Congregation for the doctrine of the faith they were not tasked with enforcing the Index so it fell out of use. Saying the Index was "abolished" would imply that they actively decided to openly suppress it, but what actually happened was that it fall away during a beuracratic shuffle. Many of the books that were on the Index are still considered by the RC Church as leading to heresy and therefor dangerous to people's souls.Wowaconia (talk) 21:04, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * A Notification of 14 June 1966 from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith announced that, while the Index maintained its moral force, in that it taught Christians to beware, as required by the natural law itself, of those writings that could endanger faith and morality, it no longer had the force of ecclesiastical positive law with the associated penalties: "Nuntiat Indicem suum vigorem moralem servare, quatenus Christifidelium conscientiam docet, ut ab illis scriptis, ipso iure naturali exigente, caveant, quae fidem ac bonos mores in discrimen adducere possint; eundem tamen non amplius vim legis ecclesiasticae habere cum adiectis censuris" (Acta Apostolicae Sedis, Vol. 58, 1966, p. 445). The text can be consulted also in Kurt Wilhelm, Wissenschaft des Judentums im deutschen Sprachbereich: ein Querschnitt, Volume 1,ISBN 978-3-16-821152-5. Esoglou (talk) 10:35, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Cardinal Ottaviani believed in the Divine Mercy and St. Faustina
Cardinal Ottaviani believed in the Divine Mercy, and encouraged the canonization of Saint Faustina Kowalska. Valtorta promoters have falsely claimed that Cardinal Ottaviani got John XXIII to put Saint Faustina’s writings on the Index. That completely untrue story has been spread widely over the internet by promoters of the discredited false visionary Valtorta. Cardinal Ottaviani believed in Saint Faustina and the Divine Mercy. The Marian Fathers are the world experts on Saint Faustina. Their website says: “Informative Process of Sr. Faustina's life and virtues is opened …encouraged by Cardinal Ottaviani, the Prefect of the Holy Office.” http://thedivinemercy.org/message/history/timeline.php So Cardinal Ottaviani encouraged the opening of the canonization process of Saint Faustina. Other sources mention Cardinal Ottaviani supporting the Divine Mercy. E.g., Catherine Odell, in her biography of Saint Faustina, wrote: “Cardinal Ottaviani, the Secretary of the Sacred Congregation, urged the archbishop to open an investigation quickly - before all the witnesses to Faustina’s life were dead. (Faustina: The Apostle of Divine Mercy by Catherine M. Odell. 1998. Our Sunday Visitor.(IN) p.158 ISBN 0-87973-923-1) So Cardinal Ottaviani believed in the Divine Mercy and Saint Faustina, and was actually involved in opening the canonization process for Saint Faustina. The Divine Mercy was never on the Index of Forbidden Books. That completely untrue story has been spread widely over the internet by promoters of the discredited false visionary Valtorta. Valtorta is not connected to The Divine Mercy. The Valtorta writings were put on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Vatican. Valtorta promoters have spread the completely untrue story that The Divine Mercy was also on the Index, because they are trying to persuade people to accept the banned Valtorta writings. The Valtorta writings really are on the Index of Forbidden Books. The Catholic Church has decreed that Catholics are forbidden to read the Valtorta writings.

There is a Vatican decree which proves that the Valtorta writings are on the Index of Forbidden Books. Here is a verifiable link which has a photographic reproduction of the exact decree condemning the Valtorta writings: http://www.traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/A_042_Valtorta.htm Valtorta promoters falsely claimed that the Diary was put on the Index on the same day as the Valtorta writings, in the same decree. This is totally untrue. The decree does not mention the Divine Mercy or Saint Faustina at all. It is just about the condemned Valtorta writings.

The Divine Mercy was never on the Index of Forbidden Books. Saint Faustina’s writings were never on the Index of Forbidden Books.

Books which were put on the Index of Forbidden Books have been listed in alphabetical order by author, by J. Martinez de Bujanda in his book, Index Librorum Prohibitorum: 1600-1966. On p.489, it lists the name Kortholt. Saint Faustina Kowalska’s surname would have come next after Kortholt. Her name is not there at all. Saint Faustina Kowalska was never even mentioned on the Index of Forbidden Books.

Fortunately, the relevant page from the Bujanda book can even be viewed online for free at a google books preview page here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Tie0hkcrpg4C&pg=PA472&lpg=PA472&dq=J.+Martinez+de+Bujanda,+Index+Librorum+Prohibitorum&source=bl&ots=Hs5bY9R936&sig=jl6SsJsIJF6C0GdIUZ_Qv5DXeJA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zXhjUdvYDvSo0AXMmoGIBw&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=J.%20Martinez%20de%20Bujanda%2C%20Index%20Librorum%20Prohibitorum&f=false

Also, you can read the relevant page of the Bujanda book if you copy-and-paste the following words into the google search engine: Index Librorum Prohibitorum 489 Kortholt. The Bujanda book, Index Librorum Prohibitorum:1600-1966, is the first link in the google search results for that search. Then scroll down to p. 489 of the book, and look at the name Kortholt. Saint Faustina Kowalska is not listed there. Alphabetically, the name Kowalska would come directly after Kortholt. Saint Faustina’s writings are not listed there. Saint Faustina Kowalska and the Divine Mercy were never on the Index of Forbidden Books.

Also, this website: http://search.beaconforfreedom.org/search/censored_publications/result.html?author=&cauthor=&title=&country=8052&language=&censored_year=&censortype=&published_year=&censorreason=&Search=Search has a list of books which were put on the Index of Forbidden Books. Saint Faustina Kowalska is not listed there because the Divine Mercy was never on the Index of Forbidden Books.

Valtorta is not connected to the Divine Mercy. Valtorta was a bogus, pretend visionary who is condemned by the Catholic Church. Valtorta’s writings are filled with obvious theological errors. Also, Valtorta ridiculously claimed that screwdrivers were being used in the first century A.D., when in reality screwdrivers were not invented until hundreds of years later. There are many other untrue claims by Valtorta, which I can also disprove. The Catholic Church condemned Valtorta’s writings. Even reading Valtorta is condemned by the Catholic Church as mortally sinful. Valtorta is not connected to the Divine Mercy.

The Divine Mercy is an Approved Devotion of the Catholic Church, and Saint Faustina is very deeply venerated by Catholics. Cardinal Ottaviani believed in the Divine Mercy. Catholics believe that canonizations are infallible. Saint Faustina and the Divine Mercy were never on the Index of Forbidden Books. The Divine Mercy Researcher (talk) 09:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The article neither denies nor affirms that "Cardinal Ottaviani believed in the Divine Mercy and St. Faustina". If you want a Wikipedia article to state that he did, you must present a reliable published source that says so (read WP:OR), not an argument of your own invention (read WP:SYNTH).
 * If you want to remove from the article the statement that in 1959 the Holy Office forbade circulation of images and writings promoting devotion to Divine Mercy in the forms proposed by Saint Faustina, you must first present here on the talk page convincing proof that the Acta Apostolicae Sedis (the official bulletin of the Holy See) is not a reliable source for that statement. Esoglou (talk) 11:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

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