Talk:Ali/Al-Ali

=From Talk:Ali/Archive1=

Ali - Allah?
So far as I know, no Shi'a authorities have speculated that Ali's name reflects any particular closeness to Allah, God. Does this mean that anyone named Al is particularily holy? This is bizarre. If there are any Shi'a who do indulge in such speculations (which is far from demonstrated), I'm fairly sure that they would be regarded as mere coffee-house babblers. Zora 18:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Yet again you delete legit info on the basis of Zora pov, and dismis the info added as loony non-sense...


 * i have conferred a special honor on you both by giving you a pure, distinguished son. He has been given the name 'Ali' from the side of Allah. It is derived from 'Ali' (The Exalted)."


 * --Striver 18:52, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * And for your information, "muttaqun" is closer to "assured" than "pious". I have no idea how you came to the idea of objecting to that, remebering that you dont speak Arabic. --Striver 19:08, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The word al-Ali is believed by Muslims to be one of the 99 descriptions of Allah, provided by Allah Himself for our reference. The word means the Most High (sometimes trans. Most Exalted). Like many of these 99 descriptions, Ali is used by many people to name their children. Such words are considered by Muslims to be sacred. Zora is absolutely correct; the mere name of Ali does not render someone "holy" per se; however, the name is nonetheless considered by Muslims to be a holy name.


 * The hadith that Striver quoted is accepted by anyone who considers him or herself to be a Shia. In the Shia belief, Allah chose the names of the Prophets and Imams, as well as other infallibles.


 * The phrase muttaqīn, as with many words, has to be explained beyond mere translation. This is possibly the reason why both words assured and pious have been included. The word actually means "one who is certain". In reference to Islam, it refers to someone who is so certain in Islamic beliefs that it translates through into practice. Therefore, one who is certain becomes pious. As such, in Islam, one who is muttaqīn is a very pious person. For the sake of this encyclopedia however, it is probably sufficient that either the word assured or certain is used. Adamcaliph 20:29, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * In that case "established in his faith" is a better English translation. "Assured" has no such connotations.

Insertion of Shi'a traditions as fact
Striver, no reputable historian of Islam accepts the stories that you are trying to insert. Those stories aren't in the earliest texts and they show every sign of being later fabrications. You are trying to insert them as if they were fact.

We give enough links to Shi'a sites that if a reader wanted to explore further, he/she would certainly read those stories and hear those claims.

It is not up to me to show that they are fables, it is up to you to show that they are not. Cites from Peshawar Nights are particularily problematic, since the text has been shown to be a Persian forgery. Zora 19:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

=From Talk:Ali/Archive2=

100% sunni
Then, as to prove the contrary, i quote witness-pioneer.org, a 100% sunni site:


 * ''Birth of Ali


 * ''Ali was born under unusual circumstances. On the thirteenth of the holy month of "Rajab", Fatima, the mother of Ali, visited the Kaaba for performing the pilgrimage. During the course of the pilgrimage while circumambulating the Kaaba, Fatima felt the pangs of childbirth. She retired to a secluded place in the precincts of the Holy Kaaba, and there Ali was born. Ali had thus the unique honor of being born in the House of God. This unparalleled honor has endowed Ali with a halo of sanctity, which has become the subject of many legends. A hundred years later, Zain-ul-Abidin a grandson of Ali (son of Husain) met as Arab woman at Najaf who told him that her grandmother had helped on the occasion of the birth of Ali. She narrated that according to the account of her grandmother, the child was beautiful, a smile played on his lips, it did not cry like other children, and its birth did not cause any pain to his mother.


 * ''The Name


 * ''Fatima wanted to name the child "Asad" after the name of her father. Abu Talib wanted to name him Zaid. When the mother and the child came home, the Holy Prophet, and Khadija came to see the newborn child. Since his birth, the child had not opened his eyes, and that worried Fatima and Abu Talib. As the Holy Prophet took the child in his lap he opened his eyes. The first person that Ali saw after his birth was the Holy Prophet. When the Holy Prophet was asked whether he approved of the child being named as Asad or Zaid, he said that as the child was born in the House of God, he should be named Ali, the word Ali being a derivative of Allah. Ali had thus the distinction of being named after Allah. No person before him had ever been so named. The name acquired further sanctity as it was proposed by the Holy Prophet.

So, having that said: i repeat my question:


 * ''All Muslim traditions describe him being born inside the Kaaba, the most sacred site in Islam; however, non Muslim contemporary academic historians choose to not mention it. One historian, Simon Ockley, retold it as a "strange" narrration History of the Saracens page 331.

Are there any relevant and sourced arguments against having that line? --Striver 05:41, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * No more objections to this issue? The line is aproved by silence? --Striver 15:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Since Striver is really hung up on nits here is one of my own. "All Muslim traditions describe him being born inside the Kaaba". Ibn Ishaq does not describe 'Ali as born inside the Kaaba. Therefore, Ibn Isahq is not a collection of Muslim tradition. Contradiction. At best all one can say is that "All Muslim traditions that describe Ali's birth say he was born in the Kaaba." I gather even that isn't actually true because somebody found a tradition about him being born elsewhere. Personally I cannot see why where Ali was born is of any interest except possibly to a historian of the Kaaba. It would be very easy, although inconvenient and unsanitary, for almost any child born in tiny old Mecca to be born in the nearby Kaaba. Kleinecke 00:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)