Talk:Ali/Sayyed

=From Talk:Ali/Archive1=

The Sayyed debate
That sentence doesnt belong here. Based on the following reasons:


 * 1) Irrelevancy. Just because the word "Sunni" is mentioned in the article doesnt make Sunni opinions about Shias relevant inthis article. This page is about the Biography of Ali. Your claim should go on the "Sunni vs. Shia differences" page.
 * 2) It is baised: The sentence is clearly promoting Sunnism by its "Not so in Sunni Islam" reference. If you insist it belongs here, then you must change its pro-Sunni tone.
 * 3) It is inaccurate: If you still insist on keeping that, then you must also add the Shi'a answer to your claim. In the Shi'a view, as far as ordinary people, the "Sayyed" is only a nominal designation. Very similar to the British title of "Knighthood": It is only a title. Shias do not "enjoy special privileges" as you say, in their societies. It is only a designation for respect.--Zereshk 23:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It may well also apply to the Sunni Vs Shiaa page, but it is also an important distinction here. The readers will see that Shiaas use the Sayyed title, and they will wonder why not Sunnis, since the article states that Ali is a revered figure in both traditions. Nevertheless possible concern for promoting one way or the other is valid, and I rephrased accordingly. The nominal nature of the title is already evident, as I clearly used the wording an honorary designation form the outset. --AladdinSE 04:39, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

=Cut=

Major revision
This page has been through some severe upheavals -- I haven't even tracked them all, and I suspect that some useful material has been lost. In any case, I deleted a long duplicate para, broke huge swathes of text into more readable short paras, and re-organized into sections.

Someone added "info" that Sunnis don't honor descendents of Muhammad and don't recognize sayeds/sayyids. I suspect that this is wrong, but I'll hold judgement until I hear from the Muslim editors. Zora 20:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * It is correct. I have been in several Sunni Muslim countries; they do not recognize sayeds. The only exception, or sort of exception, it the Sharif title used by the Hashemite kings, as described in the article..
 * I just did a small revision, and I wanted to mention in Talk that I deleted the following sentence about caliph Uthman: "Most historical accounts agree that the aging and ailing Uthman had placed a great deal of trust in his kin and that they had used their positions of power to enrich themselves." I have never come across anything like this, but if I am wrong, please cite these several "historical accounts," and then return the sentence. It sounds very intruiging. Thanks. --AladdinSE 20:29, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

The word "Sayyed" is however used in Sunni countries as well to address dignitaries and royalties. For example, I remember seeing a mural in Damascus which read:

Gha'idina ilal abad, Sayyidina Hafez Asad.

--Zereshk 20:38, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * The word Sayyed was around before it was applied to the descendants of Ali. It means means Sir, Master, Lord, etc. So use for dignitaries is perfectly normal and completely unrelated to the Shiite title. --AladdinSE 04:09, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. That's why I said that Shi'as consider no "special privilidges" for Sayyeds like you claim. It is only a normal honorary title.--Zereshk 17:28, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * No. Sayyid as an adjective is very different from the Honorific title, which may not entail tangible privileges, still is a distinction above other people. My point was that the word was available in the Arabic language before Islam, as an adjective. --AladdinSE 10:55, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Sayyed though just an Honorific title before Muhammad, henceforth, has invariably been used to refer to the lineage. The amount of reverence given to Sayyeds varies among Sunnis (i donot have any first hand knowledge about Shias), according to their cultures, from using names of Hasan & Hussain in the Friday sermons, to celebrating birthdays of their progeny. --Syed.Atif.Hussain

Respect due sharifs/sayyids
After a great deal of fruitless googling, I found a source that stated that sharif and sayyid were simply two words for the same thing, in Arabic and Farsi respectively. Because Shiism is strongest in Iran, Shi'a naturally tend to use the Farsi word. Given that many Arabic rulers boast of being sharifs, I really can't agree that Sunni Muslims reject distinctions based on descent. The section on Muhammad's descendents in the Muhammad article conflates sharifs and sayyids, and no one has objected. Therefore I changed this section of the article. Zora 01:21, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

P.S. I'm certainly open to correction on this, as an ignorant foreigner . However, I think I can recognize sectarian wrangling when I see it. I didn't want to keep anything that overstated differences between Sunni and Shi'a. Zora 01:34, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the one lone link is testament enough that this is not reliable information. While Sharrif are somewhat of synonyms, they are not the same. Also, Sayyed is an Arabic word which made its way into Farsi and Urdu due to Quranic influence. --AladdinSE 04:13, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)and Sayeed

I would like to correct Zora, Shiism is not strongest in Iran, correct it is around the area, but I need not remind you that Shiism is even stronger in Iraq, a arabic speaking nation. Secondly a Sayyed according to shia terminology if you will, is a title that implies direct relation to one of the 12 imams and consequently Ali ibn Abe Talib. You people need to wake up, with all due respect, many Sunnies to this day have issues with someone saying they're a sayyid, its like wow oh my no way, while they have no problem with calling King Hussein and his Son Sayyeeds... hmm I think we need to open our eyes a little wider, as far as AladdinSE, I'd like to ask you are you a linguest? Because you seem to like to talk as though you are, the pharasee word for sayyid is Agha.

Given that:


 * the statement that sayyid and sharif are synonyms has been included in the Muhammad article for months
 * ditto, statements re Muslims as a whole respecting descendents of Muhammad (which is not to say that they all share Shi'a beliefs)

and that none of the Sunni editors have complained, I'm not sure that I understand your objections. Exactly HOW are sharif and sayyed different? I'm not an Arabic speaker -- are you? Is there anyone else here who is?

As for all your other reverts -- you seem to be really really attached to your prose, Aladdin, even when it's not the best English. For example -- your insistence on using the word "convoy" for the pilgrims. Convoy is usually used for vehicles, like trucks or ships travelling together, or for the physical act of protecting a gaggle of travellers and their vehicles ("We convoyed the trucks across the pass."). Using it for a party or band of pilgrims on foot, camels, or horses just plain gives the wrong image. Ditto for other constructions you've used -- they're verbose, circuitous, or misleading. Am I going to have to fight to modify each one, as you defend your ego and your prose to the death?

I don't think my prose is always perfect, and I've often been corrected by other editors. Usually I look at it and recognize that they've made the original wording clearer, simpler, or more precise. That's what we want in Wikipedia. Clear, simple, and precise. You don't get that by blindly reverting to your own version when anyone else makes an edit. Zora 05:35, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * This is not the Muhammad article, it's the Ali article.
 * Sunis respect respect Hasan and Huseyn, but I would not go so far as to say they respect all Sayyids to this day, certainly not in a religious sense. Sunni Sharifs on the other hand are not nearly as widespread as shia Sayyids, and are almost exclusively limited to royal dynasties. The respect they command is mostly political and regal. Also, you are mistaken in supposing there to be only Sunni and Shia editors. Some of us actually do strive for neutrality, and for all you know are not even Muslims. It's safer, not to mention much less presumptuous, not to make assumptions.

This is the second time where you have suspected that I am reverting some text because of some childish attachment to my own prose. Your example about the Pilgrim's convoy was not even mine, it was someone else's either in this article or copy-pasted from another Islam article, I forget. I simply judged it to be less cumbersome then its replacement. And no, convoy is not just for vehicles and trucks, you're thinking of motorcade. Convoy is any procession of traveling modes of transportation, be it camels or Benzes.

I have already responded some weeks or months ago to this rather condescending lecture about what is wanted in Wikipedia. If I was anything like you described, you many edits to my work would not have survived. I read it carefully, and some of your formulations were really cumbersome and confusing. Most importantly, I have not made any blind revert, that's a bit insulting. Please check the edit history. Several of your changes which I considered either superior or was ambivalent about, remain. --AladdinSE 06:36, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

A new version of descendents section
I rewrote the descendents section again. I hope this one will do. As to sharif/sayyid:

An official website for the kingdom of Jordon says:

Ali and Fatima had two sons: Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein. The direct descendants of their eldest son, Hassan, are known as “Sharifs” (nobles), while the descendants of Hussein are called “Sayyids” (lords). The royal family of Jordan, the Hashemites, is descended through the Sharifian branch of lineage.

Also that:

King Hussein’s branch of the Hashemite family ruled the holy city of Mecca from 1201 CE until 1925 CE.

The purpose here seems to be rank sharifs over sayyids. The Shi'a websites I've seen use sayyid or sayyed exclusively, not sharif. Did only the Sunni descendents use sharif?

It seems that there's some conflict over usage within the Muslim world, which is making it difficult to write a coherent account in this section. Zora 20:59, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * The Saudi royal family is Sunni, but they discourage the use of Sharifs because it is the title claimed by the Hashemits, the family the House of Saud displaced in Najd and Hejaz. The version stated by the Jordanian website is technichally true though presented in a way most likely to enhance their claim to the old "Sherif of Mecaa" title that chagrins the Saudis so much. Also, in Sunni Arab countries, non-royal members of the population who claim some decent from Muhammad or Ali rarely go around inserting either of the honorific titles into their family names. Unlike Iran where notoriously many do, far more than is genealogically feasible, especially since Iranian stock is predominantly Indo-Aryan while Muhammad and Ali came from Semitic Arab stock. In any case I made some slight modifications, mostly about Arabic meanings. --AladdinSE 05:30, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Mr./Ms. AlladinSE, I find it very intriguing that not only are you a linguist but apparently a geneticist. I need not remind AlladinSE that Islam has found its way to the FAR EAST primarily through marriage by Arab-Muslim Merchants. Food for thought my obviously hungry friend.

I'd like to say also that it's not only Royal families of the east who can claim descent from the family from Muhammad. Many average muslims, both Shia and Sunni, are descendents of Muhammad. Last names like Rizvi, Jaffary, Abedi, Mehdi, etc... indicate Seyyeds/descent from the Muhammed. --Zee 16:24, 16 Jul 2005