Talk:Ali Muhammad Brown

Notability
Notability (people) For Perpetrators

''The motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime is unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event. Generally, historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role.''

This not just an average mugging, subject is notable because 4 victims in 3 attacks motivated by militant Islam, with coast to coast coverage in Seattle, New Jersey, LGBT press, national CNN, counterjihad pundits, since 2000s and several months in 2014. Please do not use spurious criteria to stub-ify an important and well researched article on a horrific murder and terrorism case which bears many similarities to the shooting spree of DC sniper John Allen Muhammad who also shot at dozens of people with no other believable explanation other than his obvious religious-political worldview and sympathies, another case where links to religious violence have been largely not been raised by mainstream media. Bachcell (talk) 21:02, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Bachcell, but Brown's alleged spree killing is not a "well-documented historic event". As the paragraph you copied says, "historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage". It is much too soon to claim that there has been any sustained coverage of Brown's alleged killings beyond contemporaneous news coverage.
 * I cannot emphasize enough the importance of reading WP:Biographies of living persons, which you seem not to have done, and WP:Identifying reliable sources. The only sources you have cited, ever, have been blogs (which are not reliable sources) and a dribble of news coverage from 2014. Where is this "coast to coast coverage in Seattle, New Jersey, LGBT press, national CNN, counterjihad pundits, since 2000s and several months in 2014" you claim exists?
 * I would also argue that you're looking at the wrong notability guideline. You should be looking at WP:BLP1E, which is policy and says:
 * Wikipedia is not news, or an indiscriminate collection of information. Being in the news does not in itself mean that someone should be the subject of a Wikipedia article. We should generally avoid having an article on a person when each of three conditions is met:
 * If reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event.
 * If that person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual. Biographies in these cases can give undue weight to the event and conflict with neutral point of view. In such cases, it is usually better to merge the information and redirect the person's name to the event article.
 * If the event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented. John Hinckley, Jr., for example, has a separate article because the single event he was associated with, the Reagan assassination attempt, was significant and his role was both substantial and well documented.
 * The significance of an event or individual is indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources. It is important for editors to understand two clear differentiations of the People notable for only one event guideline (WP:BIO1E) when compared with this policy (WP:BLP1E): WP:BLP1E should be applied only to biographies of living people and to biographies of low-profile individuals.
 * That's why I'm restoring the notability tag you removed from the article today. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 22:06, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * He's been covered for one bank fraud conviction, suspected of attending a terrorist training camp in Oregon, and murdering 4 individuals ion 3 crime scenes. Bachcell (talk) 13:25, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Coverage by media in Seattle, New Jersey, CNN and Fox News is not "low profile" Bachcell (talk) 13:25, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * See media sources. He was a significant player in bank fraud, and the killer of 4 people, he just didn't shoot a president, but in the current context of terrorist attacks of groups like ISIS and similarity to DC sniper shooting spree, it is very important to document (or in your case, it appears to be important enough to try to delete, though I will continue to assume good faith) Bachcell (talk) 13:25, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Please don't threaten people at first revert. Not an indicator of "good faith". Bachcell (talk) 13:25, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

WP:BLP1E
WP:BLP1E is nonsense. Where is the "one event"? It's sustained coverage of a series of events, not 1 event. He was found guilty of bank fraud, that's one event, connected to number of individuals who were also connected to terrorism in Seattle and Oregon, and murder of 4 individuals in 3 crime scenes, not mentioning coverage of arrest event or court events. Covered by many news organizations in Seattle, New Jersey, not to mention CNN, and many, many counterjihad pundits for good measure. Fort Hood WAS a single event, and that's notable because of the nature of the attack and direct link to Al Qaeda terrorist recruiter. Bachcell (talk) 16:50, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't think you understand what the word "sustained" means. You have yet to provide a single source that doesn't pertain to a murder spree during April–June 2014. A single event. And self-proclaimed "counterjihad pundits" who write blogs from their mothers' basements are not reliable sources. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:18, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


 * How is a murder spree killing 4 individuals, 2 of whom were a LGBT hate crime, in 3 crime scenes in the name of vengenance for war, plus a conviction for bank fraud in apparent support of terrorists not notable or constitute "one event"? The motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime is indeed notable and unusual (in this case holy war consistent with his version of religion) or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event (such as mainstream newspapers and television states in Seattle, New Jersey, and CNN and Fox). Generally, historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event (from 2000s bank fraud case) in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage (bank fraud events were covered in 2014) and devotes significant attention to the individual's role. (he was featured among co-conspirators in Seattle fraud case, and New Jersey murder) The existence of hundreds of pieces by counterjihad bloggers important enough to merit being targeted by IS in no way invalidates extensive coverage by mainstream media, even if it the profile was much lower than for the killing of Michael Brown. Please do not twist wikipedia rules as a tool for censorship.  Bachcell (talk) 13:19, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Extensive International Diverse Continuing News Coverage

 * Seattle 2004 13 Arrested In Joint Terrorism Task Force Raid Nov 18, 2004 KOMO
 * Advocate, national June 2014: Seattle: Second Suspect Sought In Murder of Two Gay Men Two gay men were gunned down last weekend, on their way home from a club, and the at-large suspect is possibly armed and dangerous. BY MICHELLE GARCIAJUNE 06 2014
 * International Iraq: Iraqi News: American jihadist kills 4 in the United States to protest Obama’s policies in the Middle East By Amir Abdallah - Aug 22, 2014
 * CBS News CRIMESIDER STAFF CBS/AP August 21, 2014, 11:48 AM NJ student's accused killer also charged with 3 murders in Wash.
 * CNN: Police: Seattle man's hatred of U.S. foreign policy motivated killings By Ashley Fantz, Pamela Brown and Aaron Cooper, CNN Updated 3:58 PM ET, Tue September 16, 2014
 * Michelle Malkin Creators Syndicate The Jihadi Serial Killer No One’s Talking About Aug 22, 2014 August 23 New York Post article by right-wing author Michelle Malkin described Brown as a "jihadist serial killer"
 * Notable victim: St. Mary’s Academy to change name to St. Brendan’s Academy in memory of Brendan Tevlin St. Mary’s Academy in Hackettstown announced plans to change its name to St. Brendan’s Academy in memory of Brendan Tevlin - the 19-year-old college student who was tragically killed in West Orange earlier this year.
 * Seattle media: Religious Fanatic Claims to Have Murdered Gay Men Ali Muhammad Brown Says He Shot Dwone Anderson-Young and Ahmed Said Because the US Is "Evil" it's only now, because of the bloody trail that Brown left on both coasts, and reports that he was a "jihadist," that their deaths are starting to make national headlinesBachcell (talk) 13:47, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

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Seemingly ordinary crimes as terrorist attacks
This is disputed. It is not original research because Insite is the one that notes that terrorist intent can be hidden by staging what appear to be random crimes unconnected to terrorism.

Although none of evidence or media reports before his capture and arrest pointed to any connection to terrorism. Brown later told investigators that he is guided strictly by his faith, and that the killings were "just" because they were in retaliation for actions by the U.S. government in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan. The Insite blog on Terrorism and extremism notes that Brown's claims show he was following jihadi strategic directives to activate lone wolves "for not only large-scale dramatic attacks against Western targets, but also for smaller, less risky and less predictable, individual operations" Bachcell (talk) 15:02, 18 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is disputed. Which is why it doesn't belong in the article without the best of sources, according to our WP:BLP policy. The Insite blog doesn't meet that standard. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 16:16, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Edit sourced to fox news by FBI agents removed: Fox is a reliable source on terrorism, as is blogs like Insite which specialize in terrorism coverage.

Former FBI agents believed that Ali Muhammad Brown as a teen may have traveled to traveled to Bly, Oregon to attend one of the America's first Islamist terrorist training camps which was in operation from October to December 1999. From January 2002 to November 2004, Brown with three accomplices defrauded the Bank of America, Washington Mutual, Wells Fargo, and other banks out of large sums of money. The group was led by barber Ruben Shumpert who later fled to Somalia, where he died fighting for Al-Shabaab. The check kiting scam involved depositing bad checks, and then withdrawing cash before the checks were returned. Authorities believed that the effort was to fund militant Islamist terrorist groups in Somalia, but were unable to prove the link. After a 30-month investigation the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force executed 19 search and arrest warrants in November 2004, but none were charged with terrorism. Brown was convicted of bank fraud in federal court in 2005 and served time in prison. Bachcell (talk) 17:52, 18 February 2017 (UTC)


 * How does the Insite blog satisfy the requirements of WP:IRS? And a Fox News story citing unnamed former FBI agents who believe Brown may have done something as a teenager is absolutely not sufficient for a WP:BLP. Please start a discussion at WP:BLP/N or WP:RS/N if you disagree. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:01, 18 February 2017 (UTC)