Talk:Ali Pasha Sherif

Links, Sources, Etc.
This was particularly interesting... Paper on Slavery. World Statesmen has governor's of Syria and here is Saudi Arabia. Not sure if APS's dad is in there or not. Some info on the British Occupation. Muhamed Pasha's family life has a mention at the bottom about Sharif Pasha being the finance minister, probably the same one we're looking for. Battles of 1882This gives the basis of the occupation/protectorate of Egypt. History of Egypt from Ancient Times might have something in it. Ealdgyth | Talk 00:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * An article to look up - "The Conflict of East and West in Egypt. II" John Eliot Bowen Political Science Quarterly, Vol. 1, No. 3 (Sep., 1886), pp. 449-490; a book All the Pasha's Men: Mehmed Ali, His Army and the Making of Modern Egypt by Khaled Fahmy; interesting web site on the Egyptian Royal Family Egyptian Royal Family; al-Tahtawi the son Ali Fahmi MIGHT be our Ali Pasha Sherif, as APS's name when young was supposedly Ali Bey Fahmi; another article to look up "Al-Hakim Cornelius Van Alen Van Dyck (1818-1895)" Lutfi M. Sa'di, George Sarton, W. T. Van Dyck Isis, Vol. 27, No. 1 (May, 1937), pp. 20-45; Jewelry auction blog well, that seems to show he had jewels or something... dang!Ealdgyth | Talk 03:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Way cool. Obviously he had a lot of money from somewhere, most horse breeders also tended to have things like art collections and such. Usually the fortune was diversified. Not that they always could hang onto it. Montanabw (talk) 04:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, of course they couldn't hold on to it, they had horses! Ealdgyth | Talk 04:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Calling in the reserves
I can't find APS on any of the wikipedia lists of foreign ministers, nor his father on lists of governors of Syria/Damascus, etc...the naming and title/honorific conventions are confusing and I am not sure what the heck this fellow did besides raise horses. (Had tons of trouble finding real life information on Henry Babson too, and he was an American!) In short, I have run across the various articles on the history of Egypt in this period and it was, to be gracious, chaotic. So, I am dropping off messages asking for help in some of the Ottoman Empire and Egyptian history areas. Hope someone bites. Montanabw (talk) 05:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Moved from user talk pages
Info for future article improvement

Hello again. I don't really have much info on him. He was awarded the GCSI on 1 January 1878 when he was Minister of Foreign Affairs to the Khedive. As for why: well, it's customary to give out honours to both heads of states and their ministers and I can only imagine that this honour was given to the Pasha due to his political position and to keep him sweet during the British occupation of Egypt. However, I have found correspondence from Sir Evelyn Baring to Lord Grenville in October 1883, which mentions the Pasha's suggestion to reduce the amount of British forces in Egypt, which was swiftly carried out a month later. Regards, Craigy (talk) 11:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC) --- In essence, everything on this fellow I have researched is about his history as a horse breeder, but the articles I used suggest that he had some significant influence in the Egyptian government of the mid-1800s. Problem is, the horse breeding histories are vague (one said he was the "president of the Chamber of Commerce" for crying out loud!) the titles and claims of his fame conflict, people confuse titles and honorifics with names, and in short, I can't find his father's name on the list of Governors of Damascus, which he supposedly was, I can't find Ali Pasha Sherif on the list of Foreign Ministers of Egypt (which allegedly he was) and basically, while the fellow obviously had money and political power from somewhere, my sources are neither definitive nor helpful. For all I know there is another wikipedia article on this fellow under a different name. Can you skim the article for me and let me know (on the talk page would be fine) if this fellow or his father, El Sayed Mohammed, went under other names and titles? Or edit to correct information? My stake in this is that the fellow was a significant breeder of Arabian horses, worth a study for that reason alone, but I also want the article itself to be an accurate biography of the whole person. Help! Help!! Montanabw (talk) 05:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * i found some great reference for you. Bred for Perfection: Shorthorn Cattle, Collies, and Arabian Horses Since 1800 - By Margaret E. Derry, ISBN-0801873444. The fellow is mentioned many times in the book and you can get enough details about his activities indeed. In fact his father had been educated by Mohammed Ali and had served him as governor of Arabia. By 1873, Ali had around 400 horses from the breeding of Abbass Pacha but most died before 1890 because of a virulent disease which led to his imprisonment by his own sons (Ali's sons) because of the stud their father introduced. They immediately dispersed the remnants of the breed. Ali died shortly after his imprisonment. Is that sufficient? -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  06:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input. Unfortunately, most of that is already in the article, though I have heard of your source before and I will add it.  The bit on his imprisonment is new, and rather interesting.  What I cannot figure out is what he did for his career, the source information is very sketchy, and I cannot figure out, for example, if his father, El Sayed Mohamed, was the same person as Muhammed Sherif Pasha or not.  Ali Pasha Sherif was allegedly a foreign minister of Egypt, but I can't fine his name on any list, nor have any idea of when he served other than the vague reference to the rulers under which he served.  The problem is all available material seems only to list his accomplishments (and failures) as a horse breeder.  But you have to have a small fortune to raise horses--where did he get it?  Montanabw (talk) 06:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The answer to your last question is relatively simple. On page 106, it says that after the death of Abbas Pasha, and after the spread of animal diseases his son Hami Pasha (who has little interest in horses) auctioned them off w/ low prices. Around 200 horses went to Europe while Ali Pasha bought 40. I personally believe that since the sale was auctioned, the prices were relatively low for a son of a governor of Arabis/Syria... But i am not sure about the correct spelling of his father.
 * The imprisonment by his sons can be found at page 107. Here is the link by the way. As for his father, in fact he was educated by Muhammad Ali of Egypt and was later appointed as Governor of Arabia (i am not sure if the book includes Syria but i just can't guess) see page 106.
 * What is worth mentioning (page 122) is that by the 1950's the horse breeding situation in Egypt changed dramatically from the last days of Ali P. Sherif.
 * Also (see page 141), from 1914, the Agricultural Royal Society [of Egypt] started focusing on Ali's breed which carried the blood of those of Abbass Pasha.
 * I see that there are many post-Ali Pasha era information which is related to his breed. If you can't have access to the book please let me know. -- FayssalF  -  Wiki me up®  07:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your post. Sorry for the delay in replying, I only just saw it. He was my great great grandfather so this is family history passed on to me. I had a great grand-uncle who passed away about a year ago and whose mother lived with Ali Pasha until his death so he had first hand information. I have just finished reading the Journals and Correspondence of Lady Anne Blunt and there are many negative fallacies concerning him. She took the word of a broker and a groom for granted and never bothered to check up if that was true. Some day, when I have the time, I want to write something on his life and correct all these fallacies. Best regards, Gulsun Sherif gulsunsherif@hotmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gulsun Sherif (talk • contribs) 18:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Parentage and life stuff
Copied from my talk page:

RE: Wikipedia Article on Ali Pasha Sherif
Dear Montanabw:

Hello!

I see in your Wikipedia article on Ali Pasha Sherif, that you recently made a link to the Ecole Militaire in Paris. This is an error. The Ecole Militaire is not the same institution as the Ecole Militaire Egyptienne. Ali Pasha Sherif attended the Ecole Militaire Egyptienne, not the Ecole Militaire.

The Ecole Militaire Egyptienne was a special school that Muhammad Ali Pasha (1769-1849) set up in Paris for the exclusive use of students that he personally approved and sent there. The school was in existence for only 5 years (1844-1849). After Muhammad Ali Pasha passed away in 1849, the school was quickly closed down by Abbas I Pasha who was the Governor of Egypt from 1848-1854.

There are other errors in this article which I have detected. The major remaining error is the confusion of Ali Pasha Sherif's father (who died on Feb. 13, 1865) with a man named Muhammad Sharif Pasha (Feb. 1826 - April 20, 1887). Muhammad Ali Pasha (1769-1849) and these other 2 men were all born at Kavala in northern Greece, which has led many people who are not careful in their research to assume that Ali Pasha Sherif's father and Muhammad Sharif Pasha (1826-1887) were the same person.

My research on this particular issue is still continuing, but following are the basic conclusions I have arrived at.

It was indeed Ali Pasha Sherif's father who was Governor of Damascus, Syria from November 1832 to some time in 1838. Since Muhammad Sharif Pasha wasn't born until 1826, he couldn't have been appointed Governor of Syria in 1832, since he would have only been 6 years old at the time of the appointment. Also, more than likely it was also Ali Pasha Sherif's father who was head of the Egyptian Financial Ministry in 1844, since Muhammad Sharif Pasha would only have been 18 years old at that time.

However, since Ali Pasha Sherif's father died in 1865, the Egyptian governmental positions that he is usually credited as holding in the 1870s and 1880s were actually held by Muhammad Sharif Pasha, who didn't die until 1887.

Another point well worth considering is the following.

It is known that Ali Pasha Sherif (1834-1897) had 2 brothers, namely Khalil Pasha Sherif (June 20, 1831 - January 12, 1879) and Osman. Khalil was a famous art collector and Ottoman diplomat. If you check the biographical and genealogical records available on Muhammad Sharif Pasha (1826-1887), you will find that he had a few sons, but that their first names were not Ali, Khalil and Osman. This is further proof that Ali Pasha Sherif's father and Muhammad Sharif Pasha were definitely not the same man.

Furthermore, the available records state the following.

"Muhammad Ali Pasha [1769-1849] brought El Sayed Muhammad Cherif [Ali Pasha Sherif's father], of Kawala [Kavala, a city in Macedonia, Greece] origin, to Egypt when he was 12 years old, and obtained admittance for him into the school at Khanka [El-Khanka, a city 12 miles northeast of Cairo], where all the sons of the Pashas and Princes were educated. He filled many posts in the Egyptian government during the reign of Muhammad Ali Pasha under the name El Sayed Mohamed Cherif Pacha El Kebir. He was made Wali (Governor) of all Arabia, including Lebanon and Syria."

According to the historical records, Muhammad Ali Pasha (1769-1849) was born in Kavala (Cavalla), Macedonia, Greece, and first journeyed to Egypt in 1799 (when he was about 30 years old) as an officer in the Ottoman expeditionary force that was defeated by the French at Abu Kir in July, 1799. It is quite possible that when Muhammad Ali Pasha left Kavala for Egypt in 1799, he took 12-year old El Sayed Muhammad Cherif with him. If that was indeed the case, then we can calculate that if El Sayed Muhammad Cherif was 12 years old in 1799, he was born around the year 1787. This is another proof that El Sayed Muhammad Cherif and Muhammad Sharif Pasha were not the same person, since Muhammad Sharif Pasha wasn't born until 1826 - approximately 39 years after the birth of Ali Pasha Sherif's father.

I plan to add some documentation to your article, in substantiation of the statements made above, as time permits. Plus, I am still conducting research in order to make sure that I have reached the right conclusions on these particular points. This is very much a work in progress.

Sincerely yours,

72.68.107.232 (talk) 12:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)Phil Kromer72.68.107.232 (talk) 12:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

gibraltar37@gmail.com November 9, 2011

--- I'll fix the link. What we desperately need here are the actual source citations for the "historical records" you are putting in above. I'm not questioning what you are saying, only that we have to have information on the actual source documents (read WP:CITE, WP:V, and {[WP:RS]] to see what I'm talking about.  Wikipedia really needs to have the actual source material cited, if we can do so)  I'm also going to move this over to the talk page for the article so  it can be available to anyone else working on it. Montanabw (talk) 15:53, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

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