Talk:Ali al-Rida

Date of death
This article has several different values for the date of death. In the infobox, it says 17 Safar, or 6 June 818, but introduction puts the Gregorian date at 23 August 818. Later in the "Death" section, it says the precise date is unknown, and the "Reciting the sermon" section places his death on 30 Safar. So something is messed up here. — howcheng  {chat} 17:12, 6 November 2018 (UTC) Researching this date for an unusual reason this year of 2019 AD 176B.E. I found the most widely accepted date by scholars is the last day of Saraf. That would make the 30 Saraf date the correct one. This is also when the Martyrdom is observed in Iran, so I would go with that date. Ekmsid (talk) 22:52, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Al-Dhahabi
Al-Dhahabi never held hatred against the ahlul bait, in fact his books are filled with praise for them! to claim that "Al-Dhahabi, known for his enmity towards the Ahl al-Bayt, could not help but acknowledge" is a blatant lie and cause for sectarian tension. also, the ref given is to a website that is no longer active and takes you to a page with viruses! It's contradictory that he hated ahlul bait when in the same section you say that he praised ahlul bait! I ask this part to be removed or changed because this simply isn't true! AmirsamanZare (talk) 14:41, 6 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Where is your proof? And when I mean proof, I mean what WP:RS support your view? Leo1pard (talk) 16:25, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Here are some statements from Al-Dhahabi about ahlul bait:

“The noble and complete Imam, the grandson of the Messenger of Allâh and his sweet scented plant (Rayhanah) from the world, his beloved one, Abu Abdullah Al-Hussein bin (the son of) Amir AlMu’minin (Prince of the Believers) Abu AlHassan Ali bin Abi Talib bin Abdul Muttalib bin Hashim ibn Abdu Manaf bin Qusai, the Quraishian and the Hashemite”.

“The honorable Imam Zain AlA’bidin, the Hashemite, the descendant of Ali, the Medinian”.

And finally “He is the honorable Imam Abu Ja’afar Muhammad bin Ali bin Al-Hussein bin Ali Al-Alawi, Al-Fatimi, AlMadani, the son of Zain Al-Abidin… He was one of those who combined between knowledge and work, honor and dignity, reliability and calmness. He was fit for the Caliphate, and he is one of the twelve Imams whom the Imamate Shiites glorify and believe that they are infallible and sinless and that they know all about the religion. Indeed none is infallible and sinless except the Angels and the Prophets. Everyone can be right or wrong, and his word can be accepted or rejected save that of the Prophet, verily he was infallible and assisted with divine revelation. Abu Ja’afar was famously known as AlBa’qir from the word “baqara al-ilm” to rip open knowledge i.e. to cut it, (this means) he knew its source of origin and its secrets, Abu Ja’afar was a hardworking Imam, a reciter of the Holy Qur’an, great…”.

As you clearly can see, Ad Dhahabi is calling members of ahlul bait Imams and leaders of the Muslims. If he had hated them he would not have called them imams or accepted their khelafah! There are more statements by Dhahabi about the family of the prophet but I feel like this should be sufficient. AmirsamanZare (talk) 16:53, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Al-Ridha's merits
"Al-Dhahabi, though critical of the Shi'ah, could not help but acknowledge al-Ridha's merits" makes it sound like sunnis consider Ridha shia, but that's not the case. according to the sunni tradition, all the twelve imams were part of ahlul sunnah wa jammah. I suggest that It changes to "Ad-Dhahabi mentions (name of the books where the qoute comes from) that ...." If Dhababi had thought that Imam Rida belonged to the twelver shia sect and preached that he was all-knowing, infallible and controlled the atoms of the universe he wouldn't have praised him.

Ibn Taymiyyah mentions in his Minhaaj al-Sunnah (6/387) that: "Ali ibn Moosa al-Rida, Muhammad ibn ‘Ali ibn Moosa al-Jawaad, ‘Ali ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Ali al-‘Askari, and al-Hasan ibn ‘Ali ibn Muhammad al-‘Askari. Concerning them, Shaykh al-Islam (Ibn Taymiyah) said: They did not show a great deal of knowledge such that the ummah might benefit from them, nor did they have any authority by means of which they could help the ummah. Rather they were like any other Haashimis, they occupy a respected position, and they have sufficient knowledge of what which is needed by them and expected of people like them; it is a type is knowledge that is widely available to ordinary Muslims. But the type of knowledge that is exclusive to the scholars was not present in their case. Therefore seeks of knowledge did not receive from them what they received from the other three. Had they had that which was useful to seekers of knowledge, they would have sought it from them, as seekers of knowledge are well aware of where to go for knowledge."

Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid says about the imams of the twelver shia: "As for the imams to whom they claim to belong, they are innocent of this lie and falsehood"

The quotes above shows that scholars of ahlul sunnah don't see the twelve imams as shia, rather as normal sunni scholars. Therefore I ask that the text be changed. AmirsamanZare (talk) 22:45, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * May I change this article based on the statements above without you or someone else removing it?? AmirsamanZare (talk) 13:17, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I changed that section. Leo1pard (talk) 18:19, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

New edits
Most of the material from poor sources (websites and such) was replaced with similar content from better sources, which meant also rewriting much of the article. New information about succession and character were added, among other changes. Some of the changes are highlighted below:
 * Replaced al-Ridha with al-Rida everywhere per MOS; see Manual_of_Style/Arabic.
 * The paragraph "On the eleventh of..." is sourced from a website.
 * "Ali was born one month after the death..." is not in the source.
 * "It is said that the boy al-Ridha required a great deal of milk..." does not seem to be encyclopedia-worthy content and it only appears in Donaldson's work (1933).
 * Except for its opening sentence (which is unrelated to the title of the section), the rest of "Admonishment of his brother" is unreliably sourced.
 * "His mother, Najmah, was also a distinguished and pious lady." is not in the source.
 * "...especially Imam Musa al-Kadhim, who would..." is unreliably sourced. Same issue with the rest of the section 'Designation as Imam', save for three sentences.
 * "The Shia of al-Ma'mun's era, like the Shia of today, who made a large population of al-Ma'mun's Iran, regarded the Imams as their leaders who must be obeyed in all aspects of life, spiritual and terrestrial, as they believed in them as the real caliphs of Muhammad" is considerably different from the source.
 * "Thirdly, he intended it to fool other Shias..." is unsourced. The rest of the section 'Contemporary political situation' is unreliably sourced (except perhaps the last couple of sentences) and contains long quotes.
 * "Disputes exist regarding the number of his offspring and their names..." and other information about family life are unreliable.
 * "According to some accounts, Ma'mun's main objective.." doesn't come from a reliable source.
 * The section 'Imam Reza shrine' is mostly sourced from websites and seems marginally related. There is also a separate Wiki article about it. Similar content were added from the work of Momen.
 * "The Imam advised him to solve the problem by dismissing him from his position" is not in the source.
 * "It is regarded as the most precious Islamic literature in the science of medicine," is not in the source.
 * According to the Iranica article about al-Jawad (and other sources), he was the only child of al-Rida.
 * "He was an Imam of knowledge according to the Zaydi (Fiver) Shia school." in the lead is apparently unsourced.
 * "Al-Dhahabi praised al-Ridha's by saying "He (al-Ridha') is Imam..." was replaced with similar content from reliable sources in a new section called 'Character'.
 * A new section about succession to al-Rida was added. Thanks! Albertatiran (talk) 16:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi Albertatiran. Your changes have introduced multiple no target errors, which I'm currently trying to correct. Separately you appear to have added manysfns without page numbers, do you have the page details? - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 17:03, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Could you supply the details of which work these refer to?
 * Rizvi 2006a
 * Rahim 2004
 * Kohlberg 2022
 * Mavani 2013
 * Skyes 2013
 * Rivzi 2006
 * Sharif al-Qurashi 1992
 * Unless there is a full cite for these sfns to link to, the they are much worse than the web cites they replaced. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 17:08, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that. Added the missing sources. The page numbers for encyclopedia articles are given under 'Sources'. The only source with missing page numbers seems to be Sharif al-Qurashi which is not a very reliable one and is only cited by previous editors for the quotes in the last section. I kept those for now since the quotes are uncontroversial and I couldn't find an alternative source. Albertatiran (talk) 11:09, 8 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Is Rivzi 2006 a typo of Rizvi 2006? - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 11:18, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * A typo indeed. Fixed :) Albertatiran (talk) 11:41, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

date of death
June 6, 818 is the wrong date. It is equal to 27/11/202 AH. The correct date is September 5, 818 which corresponds to 29/2/203 AH. Aminabzz (talk) 15:51, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Tus didn't replace with Mashhad
Tus and Mashhad are two separate places. Tus still exists today. In fact, Mashhad was a village called Sanabad at that time; while Tus was a more important city. But now Mashhad is a great city while Tus is a village (just like Tehran and Ray). Ali al-Rida was killed in Tus; that's true. But al-Ma'mun ordered his body to be buried in his father's tomb (Harun al-Rashid) in Sanabad. Aminabzz (talk) 17:51, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

He was not shia. Shai believe came after muslim invasion in India. 213.40.108.62 (talk) 21:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)