Talk:Alice MacGowan

Removed
In 1900, she rode a distance of a thousand miles from western North Carolina to Chattanooga, Tennessee. This could be as close as 75 miles - but no part of North Carolina is 1,000 miles from Chattanooga. Rmhermen (talk) 01:07, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Arcadia Publishing
, if I'm not allowed to delete already-existing uses of Arcadia Publishing pending the ongoing RSN discussion, then you're not allowed to add new ones. I've respected your request to hold off on the deletions of it, so you have to hold off on the additions, fair is fair. Left guide (talk) 00:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Not sure how long that RSN discussion is going to take. The WP:ARCADIA discussion is about four-years old and involved just a handful of editors. said "...many of Arcadia's authors are well-respected professionals with a lifelong interest in their communities." He goes on to say that books need to "assessed on a case by case basis."
 * It seems unfair that you removed an entire paragraph from this article by claiming "disputed source relating to an RSN discussion ... this looks like WP:GAMING the system." I am not trying to game the system. The Arcadia book was written by two respected authors: Alissandra Dramov and Lynn A. Momboisse. Greg Henderson (talk) 01:34, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Let's just agree not to make any edits in article-space related to Arcadia Publishing until the current RSN discussion is resolved; those discussions take time. I already went a long way for you in abiding by your request to pause the Arcadia deletions, even though I didn't have to. You can save the material in a sandbox if need be. Meanwhile, we can continue discussing those two authors here, what evidence do you have that they are "respected authors"? Left guide (talk) 01:40, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * He goes on to say: I will point out now that per my signature and user page, appropriate pronouns to refer to me are she/her/hers.
 * I would also encourage both parties to take it easy. There is no deadline, and so no need to rush to either create article content or delete it.
 * Left guide, I would encourage recognition that not deleting content merely because it is cited to sources published by Arcadia Publishing is not a matter of abiding by a single editor's request to pause deletion. This is not about doing Greg Henderson a favor; this is about following policies and respecting the reality that there is not a consensus to regard books published by Arcadia Publishing as unreliable merely because they are published by Arcadia. WP:ARCADIA is far more ambiguous than the initial impression you left from your invocation of it, as there's everything from The authors are highly respected and knowledgeable on the local lore and history to they shouldn't be used for controversial claims. I also am not so sure that the mere existence of a discussion thread on WP:RSN places a freeze on using that source.
 * What is more relevant, however, is that here, at this article, on this talk page, Left guide has challenged the use of Historic Homes and Inns of Carmel-by-the-sea, and that is a reason for taking a step back before adding more material cited to it. In this particular situation, where there's some ambiguity about Arcadia books and which ones are more reliable or less reliable than others, Left guide is correct, Greg Henderson, that instead of immediately reverting Left guide's edit, you ought to provide more evidence here on the talk page for regarding this source as reliable Rather than name drop Alissandra Dramov and Lynn A. Momboisse and assert they're respected, provide us with sources and information for thinking so. Have they written other books? Are they or their writings recognized by any historical organizations? Do they have professional backgrounds in reliable writing, like journalism or academics? Are there book reviews (e. g. in newspapers, magazines, or journals) of Historic Homes and Inns of Carmel-by-the-sea that indicate the book is reliable?
 * I also think, Greg Henderson, that under the circumstances it'll be more productive if you hold off on expanding pages using citations to Arcadia Publishing books. There's no deadline, so let's take this in due course. Hydrangeans (she/her &#124; talk &#124; edits) 02:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I apologize for using the wrong pronoun. Thank you for your response. You make some good points. Google Books says: "Alissandra Dramov is a journalist, author, and historian. She is a former television broadcast news reporter, anchor, producer, and videographer. Alissandra supports historic preservation and is the author of three history books about Carmel-by-the-Sea." I've read all three books and they are full of important insights into the history of Carmel-by-the-Sea, California. Her books provide secondary source information that is backed by primary sources. Currently, there are 114 search results on Wikipedia based on her name. I can hold off on expanding pages using citations to Arcadia Publishing books, but this matter should be resolved in a reasonable amount of time. Greg Henderson (talk) 02:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Last I checked, Google Books is not a reliable arbiter of an author's credentials. It (like most other Google-related things) is basically a scraper site, which is good for efficiently conglomerating factual book details and specifications in one place, but useless for nuanced discussions about reliability and credentials. That description was likely copied from somewhere in the book itself. And 114 results on Wikipedia means nothing; already established that over at Talk:Reardon Building. Can we find stronger evidence? Left guide (talk) 03:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Greg Henderson, what's reasonable is giving editors time to think, notice, weigh in, etc. This atmosphere of rush isn't necessary and can even be inhibiting. I would encourage you to relax and be okay with the possibility that some discussions take a few days, a week, sometimes really detailed and involved ones take longer.
 * Also, if you plan to continue citing Arcadia Publishing books, please take more time to look into the books and their authors. Be aware of book reviews, or of the authors' professional backgrounds. Left guide's questions on this page have been reasonable, and resorting to a Google Books author bio doesn't help your case much. I shared what I found about Dramov on the Reliable Source Noticeboard thread; that's the sort of digging you can and ought to do. From the reliable sources I've read, Arcadia Publishing books do vary in quality, so they aren't guaranteed to be unreliable, but that means the responsibility falls on an editor—on yourself—to present a persuasive case to other editors for why a given Arcadia book is reliable. Hydrangeans (she/her &#124; talk &#124; edits) 08:53, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Dramov is a councilperson of Carmel; she has a vested interest in promoting the town and its real estate holdings. This may affect the neutrality of her writings on Carmel. Netherzone (talk) 10:15, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Last I checked, Google Books is not a reliable arbiter of an author's credentials. It (like most other Google-related things) is basically a scraper site, which is good for efficiently conglomerating factual book details and specifications in one place, but useless for nuanced discussions about reliability and credentials. That description was likely copied from somewhere in the book itself. And 114 results on Wikipedia means nothing; already established that over at Talk:Reardon Building. Can we find stronger evidence? Left guide (talk) 03:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Greg Henderson, what's reasonable is giving editors time to think, notice, weigh in, etc. This atmosphere of rush isn't necessary and can even be inhibiting. I would encourage you to relax and be okay with the possibility that some discussions take a few days, a week, sometimes really detailed and involved ones take longer.
 * Also, if you plan to continue citing Arcadia Publishing books, please take more time to look into the books and their authors. Be aware of book reviews, or of the authors' professional backgrounds. Left guide's questions on this page have been reasonable, and resorting to a Google Books author bio doesn't help your case much. I shared what I found about Dramov on the Reliable Source Noticeboard thread; that's the sort of digging you can and ought to do. From the reliable sources I've read, Arcadia Publishing books do vary in quality, so they aren't guaranteed to be unreliable, but that means the responsibility falls on an editor—on yourself—to present a persuasive case to other editors for why a given Arcadia book is reliable. Hydrangeans (she/her &#124; talk &#124; edits) 08:53, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Dramov is a councilperson of Carmel; she has a vested interest in promoting the town and its real estate holdings. This may affect the neutrality of her writings on Carmel. Netherzone (talk) 10:15, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Dramov is a councilperson of Carmel; she has a vested interest in promoting the town and its real estate holdings. This may affect the neutrality of her writings on Carmel. Netherzone (talk) 10:15, 9 February 2024 (UTC)