Talk:Alice Paul/Archive 1

Photograph
Does it seem strange to anyone else that Paul died in her 90's, is best remembered for what she achieved in her adulthood, but her primary photo in this article was taken when she was approximately 15? Perhaps the current primary could be switched with the second. I have no issue with using them both, just with using the childhood photo as primary. Try to imagine an article about J. Edgar Hoover with a primary photo taken when he was four and you'll understand what I'm getting at. Wm (talk) 00:32, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Iron Jawed Angels
How accurate is the movie? Does anyone know? --M1ss1ontom a rs2k4 | T | C | @ 05:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Not too bad, if I recall. Certainly no worse than most other history-derived movies. And it's often a good idea not to take them too seriously unless made specifically as a documentary. — Anna Kucsma 15:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

IT's actually suprisingly accurate, but Emily Leighton and Ben Weiss did not exist. Mrs. Leighton gave a good prespective, but Ben Weiss was created purely for drama. Alice Paul was never marrid, and there is no evidence of her ever being in a relationship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.59.30 (talk) 19:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The language of the film is much more contemporary, of course, than the more formal language of the time. People related to each other in more formal ways as well. The basic facts of the film are correct. As noted above, Mrs. Leighton and the boyfriend in the film are fictional characters but the boyfriend is based on a relationship Paul had with a graduate school colleague. The scene showing the boyfriend teaching Paul to dance is not accurate; she learned to dance at Swarthmore and loved dancing. Scenes like the bathtub scene are obviously dramatic. The scene of an African American woman being turned away is fictional; read Wiki on the 1913 parade for details on black women's participation. Paul encouraged black participation initially but backed down after protests from white supporters; she did manage to include black women in the parade, however. Jdzahniser (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

First civil disobedience?
The article states: In January 1917, the NWP staged the first political protest ever to picket the White House. The pickets, known as "Silent Sentinels," held banners demanding the right to vote. This is believed to have been the first non-violent civil disobedience campaign in the U.S.


 * Yes, but is picketing really civil disobedience or merely an exercise of one's First Amendment right to political expression? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

I suggest there were numerous non-violent civil disobedience campaigns prior to 1917. In Civil disobedience, the article notes that: In the (1849) essay, Thoreau explained his reasons for having refused to pay taxes as an act of protest against slavery and against the Mexican-American War. Because it is the action from which Thoreau wrote his famous essay, it is widely considered to be the origin of non-violent civil disobedience. It was certainly within the U.S. I would also consider the following as examples of non-violent civil disobedience campaigns: Underground Railroad, the Anti-Slavery Society, the Women's Rights Convention, the campaign for the 8-hour day, the whole labor movement of the late 19th Century, the 1913 Patterson Silk Strike.

Alice Paul deserves credit for the extent of her personal suffering for the causes of women's rights. However, I suggest deleting the sentence that says: This is believed to have been the first non-violent civil disobedience campaign in the U.S.

I would argue that the picketing of the White House ought not to be considered to have been civil disobedience, since it was not illegal (notwithstanding that Paul and her supporters were wrongfully imprisoned for it). This is not to deprecate the great courage of Paul et al.--Nate Levin

r3 00:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Paul consulted attorneys on the legality of the picket and believed her actions to be legal; therefore, in the strictest sense, the pickets were not civilly disobedient. They were certainly judged that way by the police and courts, however. I agree with the post above that there were many instances of civil disobedience before 1917. Jdzahniser (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

abortion views edit
If no one minds, I cut "clearly she does not care about males and thus cannot ask for equal rights if she refuses to recognize abortion as the killing of males as well as,and not just, women," because that is judgement, not information. Besides, commas are used incorrectly. 138.26.94.37 21:23, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, those commas are correct. 75.118.170.35 (talk) 19:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I have included excerpts from two essays published online by two differant women that spoke with Alice Paul on the abortion issue (one of them shortly before Paul's death after abortion was legal) as source for Alice Paul's objection to abortion. 216.255.40.133 21:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Why is Alice Stokes Paul included in the U.S. Mint's page as a First Spouse for Chester A. Arthur when his page says nothing about her and he was married? I am curious about why she is listed a a First Spouse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marsha1954 (talk • contribs) 20:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Arthur was widowed before he took office, and Paul was born during his term.

other widowed Presidents aren't treated this way, though. 75.118.170.35 (talk) 19:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Paul was chosen to fill the First Spouse slot because of her birth date, her importance, and because Arthur had no spouse. Paul's abortion views are always based on hearsay evidence. She never commented publicly on any issue beyond the ERA. Her comment in the 1970s oral history is that of course women were going to do lots of things with equality that she or others might not like but the point was to obtain the equality not make people's choices for them. It is appalling that these ideas about her supposed stance on abortion continue to be distributed. Jdzahniser (talk) 18:18, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Stokes?
Where did the name Stokes come from? I have looked for sources published in the 20th century to see when the name crept into some of the sources, and it seems like the 1990s.
 * Alice Paul
 * 1921 The Story of the Woman's Party by Inez Haynes Gillmore
 * 1977 Women Lawyers' Journal'', "Biographical Sketch of Alice Paul 1885–1977" by Elizabeth Chittick
 * 1977 The Story of Alice Paul and the Woman's Party by Inez Haynes Gillmore
 * 1981 The Origins of the Equal Rights Amendment: American Feminism Between the Wars by Susan D. Becker
 * 1983 "Alice Paul: The Quintessential Feminist" by Jean L. Willis, published within Dale Spender's Feminist Theorists: Three Centuries of Women's Intellectual Traditions
 * 1987 Almanac of American Women in the 20th Century by Judith Freeman Clark
 * 1993 Second to None: From 1865 to the present by Ruth Barnes Moynihan
 * 2000 Civil Rights in the United States: L-Z, index by Waldo E. Martin


 * Alice Stokes Paul
 * 1990 Past and promise: lives of New Jersey women by Joan N. Burstyn and the Women's Project of New Jersey
 * 1993 On The Issues magazine, volume 26
 * 1999 Significant Contemporary American Feminists: A Biographical Sourcebook, "Alice Paul" entry by Amy Butler. Jennifer Scanlon, editor.

Before 1990 there's nothing about Alice Paul with the Stokes name. After 1990, none of the Stokes-inclusive sources bothers to explain the name, where it came from, etc. It looks like it appeared out of thin air. Binksternet (talk) 17:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Stokes is Paul's grandmother's name; she was named after Alice Stokes. At some time in later life (not clear when), she began to use Stokes as her middle name. The name on her birth certificate is simply Alice Paul and there is no indication that she legally changed her name. She became very interested in genealogy in later life and perhaps was inspired to add the middle name to make the source of her first name more clear. Jdzahniser (talk) 18:21, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2016
2606:A000:694B:1500:9A2:F116:7809:61D6 (talk) 21:30, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --allthefoxes (Talk) 21:38, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Lead birth control
The last sentence of the read states, "She insisted that her National Woman's Party focus on the legal status of all women and resisted calls to address issues like birth control." However, this sentence has no citation and I am unable to find any information in the article whatsoever related to birth control, pregnancy, abortion, surgery, etc. I am going to rephrase the sentence in terms of positive views (e.g. legal/constitutional rights) - something well supported by the article body. -Darouet (talk) 22:26, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Abortion Views
The Touchstone article about Alice Paul not supporting the link of abortion to the ERA should be removed. This article was written in 2000 and is not based on any facts or primary sources, only speculation. It is hard to believe that Alice Paul would give in to anything for political reasons just a few short years after going on a hunger strike. Also, the second article, which is based off of a primary source, contradicts the first. I think the first article was put there for political reasons and does not belong on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.217.88.79 (talk) 19:14, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Article sez:
 * Antibiotics were not available to treat infection until the 1930's and Paul thus reasoned that women should not have to endanger themselves with any surgery unless they had to.

Is this just speculation? Or is she on record as having said this? -- 69.181.74.76 19:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Dunno. Antiobiotics weren't available until the 1940s, BTW. --M1ss1ontom a rs2k4 | T | C | @ 05:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * This is not related to her abortion position. Her statement against abortion can't just be dismissed by saying abortion was dangerous back then. She isn't merely stating that the procedure should be avoided, but that the act itself is immoral. 75.118.170.35 (talk) 20:38, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Alice Paul very consciously never made a PUBLIC statement about abortion. Some people claim to know her private statements about abortion, but these sources are suspect. jdzahniserJdzahniser (talk) 22:32, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Personal life
Why is there no info about her personal life?

I added some material but my biography is the only one to detail her personal life, so had to cite my own work. jdzahniserJdzahniser (talk) 22:59, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Early work in British woman suffrage
Holy cow! Here is the first name/last name issue again, but that is not my concern at this point. Initially I was concerned that the phrase, "...but as a soldier in the battle..." is metaphorical. Now that I have started to get into the business of criticizing, I am seeing the whole section as more of a novel than an encyclopedic article. I think I will re-write the whole section, but let me make two points here: Alice Paul is a giant of American History, and Wikipedia is a greater giant of world history. So, I shall do my best by both Paul and Wikipedia. Anewcharliega (talk) 20:51, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Good finds on those peacock words, yes, that section needs work. Randy Kryn 20:54, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * After an hour in the sandbox I changed only a few words around the original metaphorical phrase in question. That is about as much as I have ever done to a Wikipedia article, and I guess that is enough.  I am (thankfully) not the only person concerned about these things.  I am posting my change to the article with gratitude and deference to the original author. Anewcharliega (talk) 21:35, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 07:18, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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When did Alice Paul move to London?
The section headed "Early work in British woman suffrage" starts "In 1907, after completing her master's degree at the University of Pennsylvania, Paul moved to England where she eventually became deeply involved with the British women's suffrage movement... "Then the second paragraph begins "In 1906, Paul moved to London..." Anyone have a resolution? --Mwanner | Talk 16:00, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

OK, the "after completing her master's degree" in 1907 statement appears to come U. Penn Archives,  "After earning her master's degree in sociology from Penn in 1907, Paul spent three years in England where she studied economics and sociology at the Universities of London and Birmingham."

A possible source for 1906 is www.biography.com "While in London from 1906 to 1909, Paul became politically active and unafraid to use dramatic tactics in support of a cause."

But American National Biography has "When Paul went abroad in 1907 for further education and practice in social work, she became involved in the British suffrage movement..."

So in the absence of further sources, I'm going to be bold and change it to 1907. I'd be glad to see something more definitive. --Mwanner | Talk 22:22, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

1907 is correct. Paul never "moved" to London: she lived there from 1907-Jan 1910 while she was continuing her schooling and working for the WSPU (i.e. the Pankhursts." --Jdzahniser (talk) 18:19, 29 July 2018 (UTC)JDZahniser

Alice paul the racist?
I removed the following unsourced paragraph:

"Alice Paul was blatantly racist against African Americans and was also incredibly anti-Semetic. Said novelist Veronica Ross, "I saw the whole women's movement as racist. Having Alice Paul's name on the center was like hanging a confederate flag on the door." Although she was partly responsible for the women's suffrage, one cannot overlook the racism. The real question is; how can someone be hypocrital enough to propose an "Equal Rights Amendment" while being a racist? Alice Paul is over-rated."

Not only is this paragraph far from NPOV, it is also unsourced. I removed it. If the author finds a source and a NPOV way to rewrite it, please feel free to put it back in.spirit 02:23, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Paul's racism and anti-semitism have been overstated, at least for her beliefs in the suffrage era. She did grow more conservative with age, but most of the statements about her supposed racism and anti-semitism cite no credible source; it's often hearsay. For the suffrage era, unlike Carrie Chapman Catt and others, she never spoke to the press in racist terms (though some of her statements have been misinterpreted as such). Some letters from staff indicate that she was very supportive privately of African American civil rights. Like most at the time, she was supportive of legal equality for blacks but did not consider them socially equal. Her relationship with Mary Church Terrell reflects that--Terrell was certainly on par in social terms with Paul. Her choices regarding black women were politically expedient and did not necessarily reflect her personal views. Jdzahniser (talk) 18:14, 27 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Encyclopedia of the American Left, 2d, edited by Mari Jo Buhle, Paul Buhle, and Dan Georgakas, 1998, Oxford, the entry of Women's Liberation, pg. 882,states "Politically isolated, the NWP narrowed into a small, elite band of Paul's followers who frequently expressed flagrant racist, anti-Semitic, and red-baiting sentiments." Unfortunately, nothing more is said on the topic, but it is a reliable source, and the entry is written by Ruth Rosen, as of the date of publication "Professor of History at the Universty of California, Davis, and is the editor of The Maimie Papers and author of The Lost Sisterhood: Prostitution in America." It is certainly a plausible conclusion, worthy of mention, although not as a certain fact at this point in time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.74.25 (talk) 23:32, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Audre Lorde wrote "That was in 1921, and Alice Paul had just refused to publicly endorse the enforcement of the Nineteenth Amendment for all women - excluding the women of Color who had worked to help bring about that amendment." In: The Uses of Anger, Women's Studies Quarterly, Vol. 25, No. 1/2, Looking Back, Moving Forward: 25 Years of Women's Studies History (Spring - Summer, 1997), pp. 278-285 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spinach charm (talk • contribs) 10:41, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Sexuality
[heading changed and original post redacted as offensive to the point of obvious trolling -- leaving the rest since it did lead to good faith responses] &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 15:42, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * If she was a "Lesbo", more appropriately referred to as a Lesbian in polite circles, there is no concrete evidence of that fact.  She  made some negative statements about lesbians late in life which  would suggest that she was not.  On Wikipedia, we have to be able to back up asserted facts with reputable sourcing; citing books, interviews, personal correspondence that has been made public.. that sort of thing.  It's true that some historians consider actions and relationships in her younger life to be proof of, at the very least, her bisexuality since she is known to have dated at least one man during her college years but after that, she didn't have any relationships of note except friendships with fellow activists.  That's not considered proof.  I would be all for listing her sexuality if she had made it known in her lifetime through letters, actions or interviews late in life.  The matter is CAN IT BE PROVED AS A FACT? If there is no historical evidence to confirm a fact such as this, there is no need to start guessing and put unreferenced assumptions in an article that many students will read.  Verifiability is everything when we come to biographies, even of the dead. LiPollis (talk) 01:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

LiPollis' comments are well-taken. Just would add that, based on my research, very little info is available about Paul after 1920, so we don't know whether she was involved with anyone after that point. Her relationship with Elsie Hill, whom she recruited as an activist, was also personal and lasted all their lives; the relationship does not appear to have been sexual; Hill married in the early 1920s. Paul had long-lastin friendships with like-minded women and men but nothing that became a love affair that we are aware of (but there is much about Paul's personal life that is unknown). JDZahniser ( JDZahniser) 14:10, 10 Sept 2016 (UTC)
 * Since Alice Paul's stature as an activist has rightfully taken off like a skyrocket lately, on a rising trajectory ever since the film, yes, her sexuality seems like an includable descriptor topic, but only if reliable sources emerge or have emerged. It's surprising how much of Paul's personal life is still unknown. For instance, a group of historians could have gone into her nursing home after she died and interviewed its residents and staff to determine if anyone's alleged recollections about their discussions and interactions with Paul opened up any new historical-informational paths to explore. I've never looked into how much historic research work was done on Paul's life while she was still alive, and it has hopefully greatly escalated since her death. That her sexuality isn't nailed down, so to speak, leaves a public mystery which itself creates more interest in the things that Paul did, and more awareness of the daily effect that Paul's deeds still have on individual lives and the culture in general. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:56, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

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Kaybeesquared (talk) 15:52, 18 August 2019 (UTC) new article in todays 'National on Sunday' and new book out reference to Glasgow/Scottish influencing suffragettes. Alice Paul is mentioned.

Questionable quote on abortion
I am removing the "Views on abortion" section, which contains only this sentence: "Paul referred to abortion as 'the ultimate in the exploitation of women.'" The citation for this quote is an article on the web site of Feminists for Life, an anti-abortion advocacy group. It is inappropriate to use the words of an advocacy group as a citation for a quote like this. Unfortunately, there are several spurious "quotes" that are being inaccurately promoted on the web as being from early feminists against abortion. See the Susan B. Anthony abortion dispute article for examples.

When this quote was first added to this article several days ago, it used a different citation, an extremely short (84 words) BBC article. That BBC article, however, included a "quote" on abortion by Susan. B. Anthony that is known to be invalid, so it won't do as a proper citation either.

A proper citation for this supposed quote by Alice Paul would be a book or article written by her, or an interview of her in a standard newspaper or magazine. I have found several books that contain this supposed quote, but none that provides its source. We need the actual source, if it exists.

FYI, there are several minor variations of this quote, including "Abortion is the ultimate in the exploitation of women", "Abortion is the ultimate in exploitation of women", and "Abortion is the ultimate exploitation of women". The fact that there at least three variations of this quote might indicate that its source is unknown. Unless it can be proven that this is a real quote, it should not be in Wikipedia. Bilpen (talk) 13:22, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Paul?
Would anyone object to the use of "Alice" instead of "Paul" when referring to her by one name in the article? However silly it might seem to the sentient beings among us, it's surely confusing for some people that the latter is a man's name, especially if they've followed a link and are skimming the article for something specific. Kaz 17:06, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Her last name is the style in which Wikipedia articles are generally written. Could we not assume that the reader has enough intelligence to figure it out?  We could use both names, at times, in the article to try to make it clearer. Sunray 20:02, 2005 Feb 10 (UTC)


 * Indeed, use of the last name is the standard; at least when referring to an adult. As far as the use of "Paul" by itself as being confused with a boy's name, note that the Wikipedia entry for James Madison contains has scores of instances of "Madison" by itself, even though "Madison" is a popular girl's name--and has no instances of "James" by itself. That it is seemingly permissible to use the first name of woman (by itself) creates the appearance of a double-standard. As such, these stand-alone first names have been removed, when referring to an adult. (Toby.Linton (talk) 09:55, 17 July 2020 (UTC))


 * I've added Alice or Ms. in some cases to (hopefully) make it more understandable. I'm reluctant to do this too much for the reason given above (i.e., it is more encyclopedic to use the last name). Sunray 22:14, 2005 Feb 10 (UTC)
 * Agreed. As you will note from the article page history, t'was I who removed them&mdash;just didn't look right. Sunray 16:38, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)
 * I encountered a scientific article in a periodical, today, which used the first name and last initial, in order to look officious without being too cumbersome. Perhaps that would work here, she could sometimes be referred to as Alice P. Kaz 19:10, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Miss Paul was her preferred callsign.
 * I don't agree with Ms. because any woman can be called so it makes it just more confusing.420900008 17:21, 11 Jan 2016 (UCT)
 * Ms is not appropriate because it was not in use in Paul's day. She chose not to use the title she earned, Dr., and as noted, preferred Miss Paul. I am her most recent biographer. Some recent sources use Alice Stokes Paul. Paul's birth name was simply Alice Paul, named after her grandmother Alice Stokes. She chose in later life (not clear exactly when) to incorporate her grandmother's last name as her middle name. Jdzahniser (talk) 17:54, 27 October 2015 (UTC) 27 Oct 2015

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 * Alice Paul-unc-obv.jpg