Talk:Alizée/Archive Jul 2006

Alizée's message
Regarding Alizée's messages which was sent to nidalizee.com, is it verified enough to be put in the article? I mean, even though the handwriting looks similar to other handwritten notes of Alizée, it is not official - there has been no newspaper/website coverage, and thus there is not alternate source to verify. So is it right to replace the previous version of Alizée's future section with just this note? I feel this new information should be added to the previous content. Dunno what to do... --Soumyasch 04:44, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll keep an eye on Google News France to see if a more official confirmation can be found. Nothing there as of yet, though.  jaco plane  09:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's been quite a long time now but there hasn't been any official announcement. Changing to a less authoritarian tone. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  09:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Considering this is English wiki, is it necessary to keep the copy of her letter? Or is it better to link to it via an external link? -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  10:07, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it is worth having in the article. I've changed the date format in the translation from "March 31, 2006" to "31 March 2006" as this is the format the original is in ("31 Mars 2006") and also the way a French person writing in English would most likey write it. Wikification isn't apropriate in the quote imho. Thryduulf 14:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * By the same logic, the "the" that you added shouldn't probably there, as well. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  14:24, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Removed the "the", contrary to what the edit summary says (which was due to a moment's carelessness, sorry about that). -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  14:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't object to your removing it if you feel it better (although I disagree), but your first edit of "fixing the braces" was incorrect. Square brackets are used to indicate that what they enclose is not in the original. See Bracket (I can't link to the specific section). Thryduulf 15:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I later realized it, anyways thanks for pointing out. But I removed it just because I did not want the contents to be tampered with during the translation. Anywayz, add it if you deem it necessary. I don't see any necessity though, "in studio" is also not incorrect. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  15:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * While "in studio" is not technically incorrect, it is very ugly and the normal English phrasing is "in the studio", hence "in [the] studio" to make it read better - imho. Thryduulf 19:20, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I have added it back. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  05:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

More and more i get the creepy feeling that this message was only just a hoax. Recent photographs suggest that Alizée was in most likely in Ajaccio around the time the message was written, not in Paris. Frits van Houten 18:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I reworded the text, which recently changed to After almost two years of fan speculation, on April 3, 2006, claimed to be Alizée herself, sent a handwritten message for the fans to the webmaster of the fansite Le Nid d'Alizée.... claimed to be Alizée herself doesn't make grammatical sense. Also, I removed While it most likely is real, it should be noted however that the validity of the message remains unconfirmed. It should be noted is deliberate drawing attention to one way of interpretation and hence not POV. I changed that to include the line However, the statements have not been yet officially confirmed. Hope this change addresses the concerns, still doesn't introduce POV. Please comment on what you think on this change. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  17:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds ok to me. :-) Frits van Houten 20:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Videos
The Videos section in the External Links is getting too haphazard. I tried by dividing into music videos and performances and listing by alphabets. But this soultion is not very scalable - it will falter if quite a few more links are added. What other layout can be used? May be a table which lists these by performances and albums? Please suggest. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  10:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. I've been thinking that the page has too many sections. Some are not really all that useful, for example the audio gallery and picture gallery (there are a thousand picture galleries of her on the web). The article seems to have a lot of lists, and comparably little prose. Having an entire section list her music videos (which are just her singles, which are listed in the singles section) seems rather redundent to me. Regarding the external links, perhaps the reviews could be merged with the References section. For the videos, I actually liked it the way it was before, With no separation between music videos and performances. jaco ♫ plane  10:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I was also thinking the same on doing the edits. The TOC was too long, and many info was repeated. I attempted a cleanup. As videos were released of the singles only, there was no need of two different section, I removed the music videos section, after mentioning in the singles section that all had videos. Similarly, there were three sections for references - Reviews, Notes and References. I converted all instances of external reference to inline and merged all three into a single Referenc section. And as for the audio/picture gallery, I am neutral. But I don't think the images, even though they are just screenshots from her videos, should be moved to the respective singles page, as they hardly provide any info. Adding more pics will only dilute their info content. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  12:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Great job ;) I'm a bit worried that the images in the gallery don't follow the Fair use guidelines, which state that fair use images must be used for critical commentary. Also, there are currently two sections which should maybe be merged, namely "Biography" and "Personal life". Perhaps the second one should be a subsection of the first. What do you think? Finally, I don't really like the "Awards" section, which is extremely short and has no references. I'm sure that the fact that she got these awards could be included in the "Carreer" section in once sentence. jaco ♫ plane  13:04, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point about the Personal Life section. I moved it to be a subsection of Biography. But I got confused whether to put it before career or after it. Finally I put it before, but move it around, if you feel so. As for the awrds, the handful of them that are listed in the article can be easily referenced. I don't think merging them into biography would be a googd idea. If that is to be done, the sentence would be like She also won this, this, this and this awards, which I think would be too vague, and if it has to include the info on when she won it, the line would be too long. And if it becomes a paragraph, it would be too wordy considering the info it aims to disseminate. So the separate section seems a good solution, as it also includes a chronological ordering, and the show/organizer info can also be added on a per-award basis without any information overload. What say? And as for the gallery, I am neutral - I don't feel either way. So I will leave that to others to sort out. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  13:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Personal life

 * Alizée, even though she has a singing career, prefers dancing[4]. She is quite proficient in jazz, ballet, tap and flamenco. Alizée also likes[5] football, and is a fan of Zinedine Zidane. She is a supporter of AC Ajaccio, and was once invited to kick off one of their matches. She is also a fan of Julia Roberts and Brad Pitt, having watched the latter for the first time in Legends of the Fall. She also likes Madonna, and also sang La Isla Bonita, originally sung by Madonna, live on stage.

The article says who Alizée is a fan of. But I feel such info is highly temporal - they can change every now and then. Also there is barely any relevance of such information. This makes such info somewhat unencylopaediac, and therefore they should be removed IMO. I think the three lines should be removed from the paragraph:
 * and is a fan of Zinedine Zidane
 * She is also a fan of Julia Roberts and Brad Pitt, having watched the latter for the first time in Legends of the Fall.
 * She also likes Madonna, and also sang La Isla Bonita, originally sung by Madonna, live on stage.

The para uses too many alsos as well. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  11:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Have done it. Please voice your opinion here if you disagree. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  07:52, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Links
Does anyone else feel the article is too heavy on links? -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  08:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about internal or external links? jaco ♫ plane  09:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Internal. At first glance it seems to have more blue text than black. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  19:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, is it really necessary to link to all of Alizée's videos? I fear the article might turn into a web directory of her videos. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  20:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the video links are worthwhile. Regarding the internal links, I'm sure a lot of them are not necessary: remove any you feel are not necessary. jaco ♫ plane  07:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * To start with, linking of dates, IMO, is unnecessary. But most of Wikipedia probably feels otherwise. So there's no point unlinking the dates, as they will be relinked. Theres no point edit-warring over such trivial a matter. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  07:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Manual of Style (dates and numbers) & Only make links that are relevant to the context are relevant in this case. If you want to remove the links to dates, I'd back you up if anyone comes in and reverts the changes. jaco ♫ plane  09:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Removed irrelevant wikilinks as far as I could. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  08:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if the links to the individual album/single articles be removed from the Career section. Those pages can anyway be reached from the track lists and/or the templates at the bottom of the page. So they might be removed, but again they are relevant to the context, which means they should be retained. I am in a fix. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  08:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Pronounciation key
Can somebody please help with an audio pronouncitaion key of Alizée's name? -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  17:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that the current IPA [æ.lɪə.zeɪ] looks/sounds much like an english pronounciation. I think [ʌ.liː.zɛ] (with a very long ɛ :) ) might by closer to the french pronounciation... --Xeper 12:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

References to French articles
If some info is taken from a French article, should the ref point to the French article or to an English translation (Google translator, perhaps) of the same article? -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  20:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Message translation
Hello everyone! Just want to let you know that I am currently in the studio... The new songs are great!! Kisses and I'll see you very soon! I promise

This is how Alizée's message is currently translated (emphasis mine). But in the message the bolded words are not present :- Therefore it should be indicated so by putting the extra words in square braces (see discussion above). -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  17:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * en studio translates as in studio not in the studio
 * Promis translates as Promise, not I promise
 * That is nonsense. Leave this to those who know French.  — Gulliver ✉  07:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Even I know French, to quite an extent. Could you please tell where "the" comes in direct translation of "actuellement en studio", and "I" in "Promis". -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  08:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 *  A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


 * There is, of course, no definite article ("le") in the expression "en studio". There is, obviously, a definite article ("the") in the English translation of the expression.  To employ square brackets in the translation implies that Alizée omitted something necessary, which is false.  "En le studio" would actually have been ungrammatical.


 * As for "promis", literally, by itself, it means neither "promise" nor "I promise". It is a past participle; it thus means "promised".  Alizée has indeed indulged in ellipsis, but the full version would be "[c'est] promis", literally meaning "[it's] promised".  If she had literally said "I promise", then the French would be "[je le] promets".


 * "Could you please tell where "the" comes..." really is a retarded question. Where does any of the English translation come from‽  The note literally says "Good day to all!  Just for to you to say that I am currently in studio.. the new songs are enormous!!  I you embrace and to very fast!  Promised."  But translation is the process of re-expressing a message gracefully in a new language.  Glossing texts word for word is something else entirely.


 * Sorry if this is harsh, but that's what you get if you ask me such questions. — Gulliver ✉  15:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * You are correct in this case, but there's no need to take such a condescending attitute. It's just a question, you can remain civil, no need to call it a "retarded question". jaco ♫ plane  01:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comments (and the French tutorial :-) ) but I mirror Jacoplane in saying you could have been a bit sober in your language. I never said you were wrong (I was just trying to know how best to translate!!!!). As for the "promis" part, I did deiberately refrain from going into past tense as "promised" gives no meaning to the context. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  01:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

CQuote template
Hi, regarding your addition of the cquote template, it has created a lot of empty space between the end of section text and the end of the letter scan (after which the quote starts). I tried to get the quote into the text, but could not. Is there a way out without resorting to direct HTML coding? -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  07:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah I realised that this did create quite a bit of white space, however I felt it was better than the old way where we had the box that bumped into the image and therefore didn't close properly. In the old version there was also a lot of empty gray space on the right-side of the box. At least now it is symmetrical. I'm not sure what can be done to improve this, if I figure something out I'll improve it. Feel free to hack away though ;) jaco ♫ plane  13:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok well I've tried to shorten the article somewhat. The reference & audio gallery section contained the most white space, so I've removed the audio sample (The moi... lolita video is linked to from the ext links anyway) and moved the references into a column in the external links. What do you think of this? jaco ♫ plane  15:37, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits
Merging of references with the external links looks nice. I shrunk the Wikiquotes template a little bit, to reduce overlap between the references and the template.

As for the gallery images, as I had already said, I am neither for nor against. But it is true that they do not add to any information in the article. So that might justify their getting the axe :). Feel free to remove them. I fully endorse it.

For the awards, it is okay as of now, I'm not reverting it. But if any descriptive text needs to be added to the table, only one row would get longer than the rest. Thus, for only one row or two, the entire table would eat into the space for the paragraph. What I am suggesting can be observed to some extent on the NRJ award line. Thats why I was saying a bullted list would be better, as such tidbits of information can be added without bothering about how it gels with other text (unless, may be, a 2-column layout for the "Critical response" section, with the second column reserved for the awards table. Not sure how it would look though, didn't try out). -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  09:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, we can always go back to a bulleted list if the table becomes too bulky. If you'd rather go back to the old system that is fine, I was just being bold and trying something. jaco ♫ plane  12:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Not that I dislike it at the moment. But I feel it will get unruly if the list grows. But I am in favor of trying out a few things before getting it back to square one. :-) -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  13:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you think of the new infobox? jaco ♫ plane  00:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, to me it does look very nice, more bright and cheery than the blue suggested by Infobox colours. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  05:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I just followed the guidelines on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians/Article guidelines for the colours. I think it looks pretty ok, jaco ♫ plane  05:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it does look good. :-) -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  07:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I also put a link to a google translated page of a reference used. What do you think of that? -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  12:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally I don't think this is such a good idea. This is generally not done on other articles, and anyone can translate the link if they don't understand french. jaco ♫ plane  00:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, removed it. Simple :-) -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  09:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Personal life section
''Even though the albums have protrayed her to be in a sexy, lolita-like image, Alizée maintains a "squeaky-clean public image as the perfect teenager". A very shy and a reserved person, she likes to perform in front of audience''

Most interviews, and reviews, that I went through did include a mention of this aspect of her personal life. So, though this as important enough to be included in the article. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  09:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Lead
Does the lead satisfy the requirements according to WP:LEAD? I believe so. What do you think? -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  08:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't really care that much what Wikipedia guidelines say about how articles ought to look, I find that it's different for every article. Anyway, I'm going to move some details out of the lead into the career section, maybe that will improve it somewhat. jaco ♫ plane  10:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Alizée is presently taking a break from singing, but is slated to return with a new album soon.
 * I put this in the lead to conclude the summary of her career. Now since the summary itself isn't there, is this line necessary? It is made pretty clear later in the article. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  19:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikiquote template
What do you think of the new position of the template? -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  10:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, not sure. I don't really like the horizontal line. What was wrong with the old location? jaco ♫ plane  10:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In the earlier location, this was causing the RFI musique link to be split into two lines. Also the link, along with the reference points and the quote was making it look very congested. And now, I have at least rmoved the line. You may revert it if you dont like. I have a feeling it will look much better if we can have another template (both shrunk a bit) showing up side by side below the video links. Dunno what template can be used though. :-) -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  10:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I like the current location... the line was bothering me mainly. jaco ♫ plane  10:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Awards table
I guess I am getting used to the table now, but wouldn't it be better if we just keep the awards name in the table and any description (such as "best newcomer award") displayed as a tooltip when moused over the award name? That way, the width of the table may be contained so that it doesn't eat into article space. -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  11:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay I have gotten used to and am even liking it. :-) -- soum সৌমো yasch  22:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have reduced the width by moving description (for NRJ award) into tooltip. -- soum সৌমো yasch  04:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Verifiable Confirmation of her letter
Can this be considered so? -- so U  m  y  a  S  ch  18:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

New info

 * The french channel "Europe 2" reported in the music show "Le JT de la musique" at the 7th July 2006 about Alizée. The presenter told:
 * 


 * The french music magazin "Platine" printed in the July/August issue the following:
 * <It's certain: Alizée leaved Mylene Farmer and her studio Polydor. Against the News some months before, she didn't work with Nicolas Sirkis (the singer of Indochine). The father of her little child, Jérémy Chatelain, will make the music of her new Album with six or seven written lyrics by Jean Fauque (Bashung, Romane Serda, Jérémy Chatelain)[and certainly some other songs by other songwriters]. The first single will probably be published in september, the Album at the end of the year. It seems that it won't be published by Universal or the last Album of Jérémy seems to be buried (?? that sentence seems to have no sense ??).>

I removed the direct quotations and replaced them with prose summarizing what they said. I am still unsure whether the "Platine" info be kept. I am not sure how it fits into wikipedia's requirement of a reputed, verifiable source. Please comment. -- soum সৌমো yasch  07:40, 9 July 2006 (UTC)