Talk:Allegory of the long spoons

Wikipedia policy adherence notes
A note for any new editors of the Long Spoons article, please take note to adhere to Wikipedia policies, a few are outlined below, and how this article already adheres to the policies.

Below shows how the text in the article adheres to Wikipedia policies.

Please add any relevant policies which should also be considered, below.

Also, please add comments if more detail is required for any of the policy adherence notes below.

Policies adhered to: WP:HOWTO WP:VER WP:NPOV WP:N WP:NEO WP:SYN WP:ADVERT WP:ESSAY WP:OPINION WP:ORIG


 * VisitingPhilosopher (talk) 21:52, 17 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Policy adherence fully clarified and updated. ♥ VisitingPhilosopher ♥ talk ◊ contribs 12:08, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Propose removal of orphan tag

 * Evidence: This shows all the current links from relevant pages which link to this article: Special:WhatLinksHere/Allegory of the long spoons
 * 19 links currently, 6 of them directly relevant-intra-wikipedia-content links
 * Let me know any objections to removal of the orphan tag from the head of the page, or at least move it further down the page. Much appreciated.  VisitingPhilosopher (talk) 22:46, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No objections and four directly relevant-intra-wikipedia-content referrals to this page, so I will remove the tag at the head of the article. VisitingPhilosopher (talk) 22:54, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Origin of the parable
This article describes the parable, but doesn't say where it originates. More importantly it doesn't really discuss its use as a contemporary idiom. Needs work I think.Gymnophoria (talk) 11:08, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for the constructive comments and invaluable feedback.
 * I think the contemporary idiom you are referring to is:
 * "When supping with the devil, always use a long spoon"
 * Should wikipedia have a new article about this idiom?
 * I believe that idiom is a different subject to this parable, although possibly a similar etymological root.
 * The spirit of the two diverge in this way:
 * The parable - positive encouragement towards Golden Rule kindness and good behaviour.
 * The idiom - a negative flavour which is a bit more cynical.
 * If a new article is created, the two pages would appear on a Long spoons (disambiguation) page.
 * Contemporary usage of the parable is attempted in the "Interpretation" section - please add any further views on its usage to that section.
 * I've not had much luck tracing the original source, I recall personally that it was Nordic / Scandinavian, but that was probably hearsay from a khutbah / sermon when I was little.
 * Any help with tracing the origin, or ideas on where to start, would be much appreciated. ♥ VisitingPhilosopher ♥ talk ◊ contribs 20:34, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I believe the line under the popular culture section, "It taks a lang spoon tae sup wi a Fifer", is a variation of the "It takes a long spoon to sup with the devil" idiom and not the long spoon allegory. Possibly it should either be removed or added to the page for the idiom, if one is ever created. 97.81.103.49 (talk) 16:44, 20 February 2016 (UTC)


 * For that reason, I have removed the quote. If I'm wrong, an editor restoring the quote should add explanation of the idiom.  128.135.98.25 (talk) 22:38, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Hilarious stuff about being "Hindu" as well. No one uses spoons in South Asia to eat, soup or anything. I'm seeing this for the first time, it's clearly a Judeo-Christian parable so we should remove the Hindu reference which is bogus. 07:47, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * In the Asian variants of the allegory the denizens of heaven and hell are provided with long chopsticks to feed each other. They make the effort in heaven, but in hell they deride each other and argue about who should do what.   ♥ VisitingPhilosopher ♥ talk ◊ contribs 09:50, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Oldest sources
I found the oldest versions of this allegory in the following documents, the first is a 1941 edition of"The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science":

https://books.google.it/books?id=FFYqAQAAMAAJ&q=Heaven+Hell+feed+spoons&dq=Heaven+Hell+feed+spoons&hl=it&sa=X&ei=LJHiVPWJIcn3atG7gvgI&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAjgK

the second document is "Typical Plans for Postwar World Peace" by Otto Tod Mallery in 1942:

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/intcon21&div=41&id=&page=

Is there anyone who can find older source of this tale?

Bye.

--Myron Aub (talk) 01:18, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I found an even older source reporting the allegory, it is found in a 1938 magazine, 'Kʻoria Misyŏn Pʻildŭ, Volume 33' edited by the 'General Council of Evangelical Missions in Korea'. On page 152, it is said that this account was narrated by a 'Korean preacher':

https://books.google.it/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&hl=it&id=hGxgTRZCsagC&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=spoon

Bye.

--Myron Aub (talk) 14:34, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Drafting...

Cooperation in Evolutionary biology
Ecological studies have hypothesised that in an abundance of natural resources, near the equator, evolution favours shorter lifespans, more competition and less parental involvement.

Whereas, in harsher environments (i.e. far from the equator), evolution favours extensive care by parents when young and populations tend to have cooperative or mutualistic behaviours. If populations have a competitive behaviour in hostile environmental conditions they mostly die by environmental selection, hence populations in hostile conditions are selected to be cooperative. Cooperation via mutualistic interactions is vital for the terrestrial ecosystem to function.


 * The proposed draft above is relevant to the allegory as it demonstrates the importance of cooperation. But it needs to be summarised further and included across the article, NOT in its own section.
 * ♥ VisitingPhilosopher ♥ talk ◊ contribs 10:23, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

The allegory's use in conflict resolution
The allegory has been used to encourage peace and reconciliation by the Pope and by Rev Lapsley during sermons when invited to talk to both Protestant and Roman Catholic congregations, bridging the divide in Belfast, Northern Ireland, during The Troubles. During conflict resolution communicating difficult truths can be better through a third party who can make suggestions through such stories.

propose to insert above this existing text on the page: One variant of the allegory was used by the League of Nations to assist with postwar peace after World War II.

♥ VisitingPhilosopher ♥ talk ◊ contribs 12:40, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to add this link to a new "External Links" sub heading
drafting link syntax:

https://food.caritas.org/video-one-human-family-food-for-all/

Also, there needs to be a fix to the syntax of the current REF11 markup. REF11 does not appear correctly in the REF section.

Currently:

Proposal for a new entry with the full allegory, as told by Rev Lapsley
The version below of the story is as told by Rev Lapsley, free use copyright is granted for this version.

It is valid to be published on Wikipedia in this form as this version of the story has been publicly displayed on Parish noticeboards in Kent, England for several months.

--- Can anyone suggest an appropriate wiki markup syntax to put it in the box on the page? Ideally with a border which looks like a scrolls at the top and bottom, or similar. --- The proposed addition to the page. ---

STORY TITLE: Allegory of the long spoons

Reverend Lapsley preached approaches to peace and reconciliation to his congregation in Belfast, Northern Ireland, for decades during The Troubles. His approach was ecumenical, bridging across the divide between Protestant and Roman Catholic.

Story attributed to: Rev. D. W. Lapsley. (1927-2017) — Preceding unsigned comment added by VisitingPhilosopher (talk • contribs) 10:07, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

--- Redacted the February 2022 version, as a few edits have been done, and it is repeated, below. --- ♥ VisitingPhilosopher ♥ talk ◊ contribs 11:20, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Latest version, editted, reviewed, ready for mainspace
The entry below was reviewed by a published author, and as there have been no objections for 4 months, I will publish the new version of the allegory (below) at the bottom of the page in mainspace.

Version told to bring peace during The Troubles
The Reverend Lapsley preached approaches to peace and reconciliation to his congregation in Belfast, Northern Ireland, for decades during The Troubles. His approach was ecumenical, bridging across the divide between Protestant and Roman Catholic.

The version of the allegory attributed to Rev Lapsley is below.

Reverend Lapsley told a tale of a vision he had of heaven and of hell.

He told of two Viking long houses standing, isolated, in a cold Scandinavian expanse, high up in the Arctic Circle.

The Viking kings would gather their whole tribe inside the tribe's long house for festivals.

He told that leading up to the two feasting houses were two paths which joined at a huge gate.

The gate was magnificent, tall and adorned with pearls.

Looking closer at the two long houses, he saw only one difference.

One long house had “Heaven” on its door, the other “Hell”.

He went up to the long house called "Heaven" and peered through the window.

Inside, the people in heaven were very happy, they were all laughing, joking, well fed, chatting with each other and enjoying a wonderful meal from a long table.

Then, he looked in through the window of the long house called “Hell”.

He saw an identical long table in the centre, piled high with delicious food and drink, out of reach of the feasters sitting on their benches.

But in hell the people inside were thin, weak and arguing with each other. Some were shouting, some not talking at all,

everyone in hell was miserable.

Apart from their name plate on the door, the two long houses were the same in every way, so he wondered why the people inside were behaving so differently.

The same long benches were along the walls inside each building.

But here was the strangest thing of all, in both feasting houses each person had a long slat of wood bound to their right arm, strapped on so that they could not bend their elbow! All the people were fixed in their seats on the wooden benches along the walls of the room. Peering closer he could see it was a long spoon bound onto their arm. They could not pick up what was in front of them. They could not bring the food to their mouths.

---

Reverend Lapsley paused and asked us:  "Have you remembered what I saw?"

In heaven – Everyone was happy, laughing, joking, well fed, chatting.

In hell - they were thin, weak, some arguing, some shouting, some not talking at all,  everyone was miserable.

But in both houses, all the food, the seats, the table and the long spoons were exactly the same.

Why is this?

The people in heaven were helping each other. They each used their long spoon to reach the food on the table and feed the person opposite them. In this way everyone in heaven was well fed and happy.

In hell no one helped anyone else, they tried to feed themselves but they didn't manage to get the food into their mouths. They were all thin and weak.

Judgement day

Outside the long houses, at the huge set of pearly gates, stands St Peter.

He holds up your life’s record and he decides whether you belong in the long house of heaven, or hell.

Interpretation of the allegory

The Reverend Lapsley said it is very important that each person is sent to the right place. Just one person who is sent to the heavenly place by mistake will destroy the happiness of the others there.

Each person in heaven reciprocates kindness and feeds the person opposite. If a selfish person is sent to heaven, then the happiness will be disrupted.

It is important that any selfish and unkind people are sent to live together in hell.

Otherwise the malaise of an eye-for-an-eye and a tooth-for-a-tooth revenge could spread like an infection in heaven. This is why the decision made at the gate is so important. If there is any doubt, it may be better to send someone to live in hell than disrupt the happiness of heaven.

Attributed to: Rev. D. W. Lapsley. (1927-2017)

--- Can anyone suggest an appropriate wiki markup syntax to put it in the box on the page? Ideally with a border which looks like a scrolls at the top and bottom, or similar.

Proposed text to add about different variants of the allegory.
= Variant used during World War II peace talks = Proposed text to add to the VARIANTS section of the article:

One variant of the allegory was used by the League of Nations to assist with postwar peace after World War II.
 * ♥ VisitingPhilosopher ♥ talk ◊ contribs 09:33, 4 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The above sentence has now been added to the article, after being proposed for three weeks on the Talk page with no dissent. ♥ VisitingPhilosopher ♥ talk ◊ contribs 15:31, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

= Proposed text to add in INTERPRETATION section about Crab mentality =

 Should the text below be added to the INTERPRETATION section?

The long spoons allegory has been associated with crab mentality. Specifically, exam scores are now anonymous in New Zealand, to reduce bullying by peers.


 * ♥ VisitingPhilosopher ♥ talk ◊ contribs 12:30, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Added to main page now, as it has been proposed here for six months, with no objections.
 * ♥ VisitingPhilosopher ♥ talk ◊ contribs 09:56, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

<!-- commented out,    these are discussion points...

NB: NOTE THAT THIS COMMENT SEEMS TO BREAK ANY FOLLOWING TEXT... closing syntax needs to be checked.

The above version was posted on the Talk page for five months. The version has been published on parish noticeboards. The version has been reviewed and edited by a published author. and with no objections in five months, it is ready for mainspace. [ In real life people will be moved from heaven to the “other place”, - “sacked” / “let go”, “moved on”,  ] Can anyone suggest an appropriate wiki markup syntax to put it in the box on the page? Ideally with a border which looks like a scrolls at the top and bottom, or similar.

--!>