Talk:Allentown, Pennsylvania/Archive 2

Changes to Allentown History
The source used in the previous article is a typed, unpublished document that apparently drew most of its information from Charles Roberts' 1914 History of Lehigh County. Roberts' earlier account in the Historical Society's 1909 Proceedings is consistent with the 1914 history and covers all of the particulars in the first paragraph, including the few new facts I added. Three points:
 * Roberts uses "Northampton Town" and cites his source (University of Pennsylvania).
 * I reordered Allen's roles chronologically and made clear he was Chief Justice at the time of the town's founding.
 * I removed the 1735 settlement statement. While supported by the previous reference, I believe this is incorrect. The 1735 settlement date is cited in Roberts' 1914 history as significant to Lehigh County's development, that is, when the Egypt area of Whitehall Township was settled. The "area that is now the city of Allentown" had no settlement until William Allen built his hunting cabin (circa early 1750s). The earliest "settlement" in what is now the city was probably Hunter's Cabin (circa early 1740s).Allreet (talk) 01:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Population
In tending to a few minor issues, I couldn't decipher some of the population breakdowns. "Married couples living together," for example, I assume means households with married couples (the "living together" is probably unnecessary). However, I'm not sure what "female householder with no husband present" means. Single female, divorced female, female as sole householder or a combination? And why not a similar stat for males? "Non-families" doesn't make sense. Nor does "33.1% of all households were made up of individuals." I'm not even sure if the stats are accurate since I couldn't find similar wording of U.S. Census categories. Were some census numbers combined to create these groupings? Some additional research might reveal more, but feedback would help. By and large, however, the section appears accurate and important. Thanks.Allreet (talk) 07:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Baseball
I've broken this section out from the Allentown main page to History of baseball in Allentown, Pennsylvania to allow for better expansion, organization and inclusion of images. I think this is a great little section, and one of a subject matter important to Allentown's history. Having this as a standalone article will not only serve the function of reducing the size of the main Allentown article, but will hopefully motivate editors to perform some of the enhancements described above. I will leave actual article title up for debate, if necessary... please discuss and change as seen fit. The lead-in from the main article may also need to be tweaked as necessary. Alphageekpa (talk) 11:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Geographic Location
I've added the Geographic location template to a new subsection of Geography I've named "Topography." Just what to include is probably a topic for some discussion. Some, like Bethlehem, is easy. Others, like Center Valley, may be the subject of debate. Alphageekpa (talk) 11:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Discrepancies within Sister Cities section
I've added a to the statement "Allentown has two official sister cities as designated by Sister Cities International." Allentown is not included as a city in Pennsylvania that has a "sister city", according to the Sister Cities International website. So, there's clearly either an error with the statement above, or with the Sister Cities' website. In addition, the statement says "two official sister cities," yet three are listed. The list also does not appear complete, as the Israeli city of Tiberias (at least according to that cities' Wikipedia article) claims "twinning" with Allentown. Clearly, there are some discrepancies that need to be resolved with the content of this section. Alphageekpa (talk) 11:54, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames
I also grew up in Allentown and the only one that I've heard is "The Queen City". The rest sound like slang or are quite obscure. Bwmoll3 (talk) 05:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Queen City" is probably the most well-known for Allentown residents, and that's probably because of the Queen City Airport. As you can tell from my citation, the exact origin appears unclear.  I have another book here from the period - have to find - that indicates there was a large "national" article written about the silk industry, and that Patterson, NJ was tagged the "King" city of silk, and Allentown the "queen", since they were #1 and #2 in silk production at the time, and the "Chamber of Commerce" (or equivalent) turned that into a well-used nickname in publicity campaigns.  "Band City USA" is also popular and current, and is referenced in just about any article written on the Allentown Band, Pioneer Band, etc.  A survey of The Morning Call archives indicates this term is used in articles at least once or twice a year, going back into the mid-1980s.  Anyhow, both of these are in common and regular usage.  "Silk City" is common enough to be remembered, especially by senior citizens, and as a citation is provided, is worthy of inclusion.  The same holds true for "Peanut City", which is indeed anachronistic, but of historical interest and value.  The only nickname for which I cannot provide a citation (and given, I did not add to the article), is "A-Town", which I believe to be slang.  Alphageekpa (talk) 12:16, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Radio Station Criteria
I removed three stations (WCTO, WWYY and WGPA), which did not meet the previous criteria, that is, none of these stations is located in neighboring townships or operating from the city. Furthermore, each is licensed to another municipality, so the only connection with Allentown is that the signal can be received here. To make the issue as clear and simple as possible, I changed the criteria to "licensed to Allentown." This is an official designation that defines location, even if a station's facilities are somewhere else, such as in a neighboring municipality. As time goes on, other stations that don't qualify are certain to be added (including those just removed), because people generally do not understand any of the above distinctions and confuse locally-received with location. But so it goes. Allreet (talk) 01:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Landmarks...split as separate page?
I added addresses to most landmarks, as a guide to those who wouldn't have a clue as to where to find many of these sites. The list is much more unuseful without them. There are still several notable landmarks to add, including Allentown Masonic Temple, Americus Hotel, Dime Savings and Trust Company, Neuweiler Brewery, and Old Lehigh County Courthouse (as a site apart from the museum, if it's even still in operation), all of which are on the National Register of Historic Places. Two suggestions:


 * Drop "and popular places" from the header, and restrict this list to historical, non-commercial sites. For example, you could add every park, every business with longevity or a dedicated following, every gathering place, etc., and eventually you'd have a street directory (WP:NOT). That's why I've always felt Yocco's didn't belong here, and if the header were changed, there wouldn't be any justification for including it, whereas everything else is not here because it's a "popular place" but because it has some significance beyond contemporaneous nostalgia (will anyone care 100 years from now?)
 * Split this section from the main article. Both are getting quite long.

I'd appreciate a response. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 03:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Once upon a time, the "Popular Culture" section was broken out to a standalone page, with significant expansion. It was promptly the subject of a wp:afd debate, and deleted.  I fear you're going to risk the same with splitting out these.  I agree, the section has become unwieldy and too much like a "directory."  However I think that the best course of action would be to get these out of bullet-points, create pages for those that are notable enough, and incorporate links to them in their respective sections (ie, Neuweiler linked out in mentions of the historical importance of breweries in Allentown).  Clearly, some will get trimmed during the housecleaning, and that's probably a good thing.  Alphageekpa (talk) 20:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Crime Section
This is a quite inappropriate section as all cities have criminal activity and crime statistics. However it's generally not included in an article about a city on Wikipedia. If it was, then volumes would be written about the crime in Philadelphia, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Denver, Des Monines, and a thousand other cities. Bwmoll3 (talk) 14:26, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Other articles, such as Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, have crime sections in their Wikipedia entries (and at least Philadelphia has a break-out page).  I think that it even warrants further discussion.  Allentown, like Reading, serves as the perfect example (and forgive the simplicity here) of a "small town" with "big town" problems.  With both Allentown and Reading, part of the crime problem is a spill-over from NYC and Philly.  However, unlike NYC and Philly, Allentown does not have "big town" resources or experience.  Crime, and its impact, is much more visible.  Did I add this section?  No, I did not.  Do I think it should be here?  Absolutely.  In fact, I think it should be further developed to reflect what I mentioned above.  Is the "Gang" section necessary?  Probably not as a stand-alone section...but it does deserve mention in a crime section. Alphageekpa (talk) 16:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The Citation is Wrong. The Article says 2006 but if you check the citiation (25) it is 2003.  Does this section accurately reflect the Crime? We should use 2007 Stats. Why are there no references to recent anti-crime intiiatives like the Gang Corridor or the Video Cameras?  Why do you cite national averages rotely?  Would it be better to compare to other ciites rather than just the national average?

Russojar (talk) 20:20, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Russojar - You are welcome to edit and improve this section within Wikipedia guidelines. However, your previous deletion of this section is not an appropriate action.  Alphageekpa (talk) 13:57, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Alphageekpa - You made that point to me already in a direct communication.  I apologized for the deletion.  I told you am new to Wiki, an am learning now how to interact with editors.

My reason for deleting the section was that it was out of date, lacked citiatons, had citiations that were about other counties and states, and had general info about crime and gangs. The section does nothing to provide facts about Allentown's crime picture. Again, I apologize for deleting without following proper Wiki protocol.

Having said that, I think the section should be deleted until it can be corrected.

I see that the crime section has been questioned before. I see also that the there does not seem to be a discussion. You just reply and say you don't agree and that there should be a crime section and that's that.

How do we have a intelligent dialogue on this? Who gets to decide whether it stays or not. Who gets to decide what goes in the section or not. My business has given me an opputunity to work with the Allentown Police and the County District Attorney. There is more to the crime situation than is presented in that entry. 2003 stats are being used. We shold be using the stats from the PA State Police Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) data and we should use 2007 data. That is why I deleted the section. The entire section is misleading. There are no citations to back up the some of statements. Example: "MS-13 has a stronghold"  Shouldn't that have a citation? Also, it says that "The Bloods and Crips, two notoriously violent gangs, also have a presence in the city. The only citation in the whole section is an express times article written 5 years ago about Warren County NJ and Northampton County.  It has no relavence to Allentown other than an Allentown Police officer is quoted in a talking about gangs in general. Speaking about gangs in general is this sentence appropriate for this section of sould it be moved to Wiki page about gangs in general

"These and other gangs have been responsible for gang signal graffiti, which typically is a reference to their presence on a certain block and sometimes an advance warning of forthcoming retaliatory gang violence or other crimes."

So again, I ask that we consider removing this section until we can provide an updtate, factual, non-editorial secition on the current crime situation in Allentown. I have a email into Capt Warg of the Allentown PD to review the entry and comment.

Please advise as to how long I should wait or what your protocol is for these discussions?



Russojar (talk) 15:46, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * So the city is hiring a PR firm to come in and work on its WP article? Great.  Here is what I suggest:
 * The stats section, if it is inaccurate or dated, should be corrected or updated. But I do not know how a list of crime statistics is inappropriate for the article.  If its not in an article on Bethlehem, maybe it should be.  But its existence or the lack thereof is irrelevant for Allentown.  Unfortunately cities don't hire people to write about how crime increases, so we have to wait until an editor comes through to add that to other articles.
 * I agree that the gang section is poorly written. However, in my own look at some sources, Allentown does indeed have a gang issue.  MS 13 appreas to be active there (as they are in many other cities).  In addition, if I recall correctly, gang crime was an issue in the city's 2006 illegal immigration debates.  So it would be hard for you to argue that a gang issue does not exist if you were going to do this. It exists in many places, Allentown is probably not that much different.
 * 1. I would change any factual information in the stats as reported using the information you have. Most editors are unable to conjure up these statistics on their own.  If you want to provide the information to me, I can do it for you.
 * 2. For the gang issue, I would suggest that you present a re-write on the talk page prior to making a major edit. I am suggesting this due to the guidelines on conflict of interest.  I am hoping that what comes out is not something along the lines of a police department press release.  Any assertions the the chief wants you to make about anti-crime activities that are successful in reducing crime should be backed up with real data and independent sourcing.  Press releases from the Allentown PD and the Mayor's Campaign manager aren't what we have in mind.  I am sure that negative assertions in the Morning Call aren't necessarily what the chief has in mind either.  That's why people collaborate.

TastyPoutine talk (if you dare) ] 17:03, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The City has not hired a PR firm. Keep your powder dry.  I am working on a volunter committee called Allentown Ahead.  I agree.  We should collaborate.  I stated previously that Wiki is NOT a PR platform for anyone.  There is no conflict of interest.  Our interest is to ensure the Wiki states facts in a neutral way.  At the moment, that is not being done. Yes there is a gang problem, but saying the MS-13 has a "stronghold" is editorial.  I wonder what the motives or conflicts of interest are of the guy who cited a Express Times about Warren County as a legitimate citation for Allentown crime. So in the interest of collaboration, I ask the active editors of this article if you are all OK with citing articles about New Jersey and pretending they apply to Allentown?  Can we start with citation 28 and agree that it should be removed? Can we get a citation for the MS-13 stronghold? (And whats with "if you dare" thing.)Russojar (talk) 13:17, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * TastyPoutine - Regarding your items 1 and 2 in your last note. First, thank you for the sugestions. 1. I will work at looking into the PA State Police UCR data. It is onnerous and it will take a few days. 2. I will draft re-write of the gang section and post it here for review.

I want to let you know that I agree wholeheartedly that this should not be PR of the Chief or the Mayor. I am also relieved that you offered the resistence to allow this to be the Morning Call spin as well. Again, I am all for neutral. I thank you for the opportunity to participate and hope I can contribute to all the good work that has been done so far.Russojar (talk) 22:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The fact is that the city can spend money to add to the article, however if what they change becomes a cheerleading piece, it will be edited back to a NPOV.   Frankly, the city has a website it already pays for.  Spending public tax money to update the Wikipedia article is a waste of money, as it's already being done by the wikipedia community.  Bwmoll3 (talk) 14:29, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

This city is NOT spending any money on updating Wikipedia. That is a fact. Your statement is false. And while there are people updating the Allentown Wikipedia article, they are doing so with false statements, some of which are inflamatory and potential dangerious. Specifically, stating that there is an MS-13 stronghold when MS-13 is one of the most violent gangs in the world is flat out reckless. There is no (zero, zip, nada) evidence of MS-13 activity. The current editors cite articles that are written about Newark. That is reckless.

With garbage like that being published as an encylopedia, the City SHOULD be spending money to police the wiki page and may be incented to do so. Statements like that are damaging to the taxpayer.Russojar (talk) 01:20, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Please see the note I left on your talk page. TastyPoutine talk (if you dare) ] 01:52, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Neighborhood Section
Has anyone condsidered adding a section listing the various neigborhoods in Allentown? Other city pages have done this and in some cases link to individual pages for a specific neighborhood.Russojar (talk) 16:22, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

City Seal
Is it possible for someone living close to Allentown (I grew up there, but live in Atlanta now) to scan a decent larger color graphic of the city seal? Bwmoll3 (talk) 14:33, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And flag, please. I'm assuming such a thing exists. Alphageekpa (talk) 16:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I have a 154 X 150 that would be a bit better. City Seal. When I try to upload it, they start with all the permission stuff.Russojar (talk) 16:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the link to the seal graphic. I uploaded it and used the  use justification that was used for the Philadelphia city seal (with alternations for Allentown) Bwmoll3 (talk) 18:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Gang Section
I met with Chief Manescu yesterday to initially discuss getting his input on the gang write up. I will continue to do that. He is reviewing the current write up.

In the interim, can we either get a citation for the "MS-13 has a stronghold" or otherwise delete it? When I mentioned MS-13 he quickly stated that we do not have any MS-13 presence, let alone a stronghold. He added that if we had MS-13 activity, we (the citizens) would know about it because they are very violent. He further added that when there is a hint of poetential MS-13 activity, he gets calls from the gangs alerting him because the gangs do not want them here. He briefly outlined the gang activity in conversation and said he would review the current writed up and provide his input. He was forthcoming with his verbal description and I think that he could provide useful information. What is the process to vett his statements? Do we just cite them?

What is the process to gain concensus on the MS-13 stronghold reference. It appears we have a statement in the page that is false. Due to violent nature of MS-13, I do not see why we would want to have such a statement there withhout having a reliable citation.Russojar (talk) 15:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I won't go so far as to say that its false, but I will say its unsourced and, if untrue, is inflammatory. I did a quick search and found very little to indicate that Allentown has an MS 13 presence that is unusually large or is acting as some sort of beachhead to branch into the Lehigh Valley area.  All I found related to MS 13 in the Morning call were this story which doesn't mention Allentown and this which mentions Hazelton in connection with the hearing over their Immigration act there.  The assertion is made by someone who is said by the paper to be a gang expert.  So you can take that for what its worth.  But again, not Allentown.  I would support removing that statement given the lack of anything reliable that jumps off the page.


 * In reference to information on gangs, I would suggest that a good approach is to try and learn whether gang activity is higher than it has been in the past in Allentown. I don't know enough to make an statement either way.  But if someone had access to the proceedings f the gang conference that took place in Norristown, that could go some way in establishing some facts that can be presented in a neutral fashion.


 * As a last point, the chief's assertion that they would know about it if there was gang activity doesn't hold a lot of water in terms of a WP article. It seems there has been MS 13 activity in the past  (yes its two years old) and there could be such activity now.  No indication that this is any sort of a stronghold, but there has been something.  From his own political standpoint, I would be nervous about making a public statement like that on WP, because he is going to look like a jerk if something happens. Others can speak about the process to include his statements.  TastyPoutine talk (if you dare) ] 18:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * TastyPoutine. Thank you for your response. I read your link.  It is about an arrest in Newark for MS-13.  The reference to Allentown says "In a related story" and then goes on to say 12 aliens were deported relative to drug charges.  There is no link to MS-13.  I am new to WIKI and I don't know what the standard is for references and citations.  However, it seems it is not encyclopedic to reference an article about Newark's MS-13 activity and conclude that Allentown also has MS-13. What am I missing?


 * Can we agree that the Allentown page should be edited to delete the MS-13 reference? I agree with you. If it is false, it can be inflamatory.Russojar (talk) 20:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm going to concur on the "MS-13 stronghold"... Searching the Morning Call archives, I could find no evidence supporting that statement. I've rewritten the entire section, and have included better citations (it appears many of the old links have "gone dead" since the section was originally written.)  Alphageekpa (talk) 22:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Russojar, you are right, I was looking at lunch and didn't catch that the arrests were unrelated to the MS13 incident.  My mistake.  At this point, I am unable to find anything indicating a presence in Allentown proper.  There are certainly references to the gang in areas not far away.  But I have little to show for my searches.  One more suggestion.  I found that the Express Times did a whole series on gang activities.  While much may not be appropriate for Allentown itself, there appears to have been some reference to the city.  I do not have access to the Express Times archives.  But perhaps you might consider looking it up and using it to help write the section.  Its a couple of years old but it can sometimes be a good starting point for further research.  I am sure you can get confirmation or repudiation of any of the assertions in the series from your own sources.  I realize that you didn't start out to focus entirely on this issue.  But since it's reliability seems to be a question, I believe that further research is warranted in the interests of a good article.  TastyPoutine talk (if you dare) ] 23:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the revised write, it looks much better. Is there a way to get citation 27 to point to the actual article rather than than the morning call home page? I could not find the actual article.Russojar (talk) 01:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It does not point to the Morning Call "home page," Russojar, however the title of the publication in the citation does indeed link to the Morning Call wikipedia entry. What is presented is a standard citation for a newspaper article.  The Morning Call archives, going back to 1986, are available online here thru the website of the Allentown Public Library.  Access is available, provided you have a library card.  The Morning Call "commercial" website itself keeps articles available online for a short period of time only, so using the Proquest link thru the library is your best bet.  Articles before 1986 (and going back to around 1900) can be accessed on microfilm at the library.  Alphageekpa (talk) 10:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Economy Section
Be advised that I have killed the following from the Economy section, as it is a copyright violation. The ENTIRE paragraph was lifted directly from Paul Muschick's Morning Call article from May 18, 2008 titled, "Image Overhaul ** As mayor works to transform Allentown, poll shows signs of progress." I'm removing to here until paragraph and/or section can be addressed, with appropriate citations given to material. Alphageekpa (talk) 13:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * SNIP:"About $488 million in development is finished or under way in and around downtown and more than 80 percent of Hamilton Street storefronts are full between Third and 10th streets. The city currently has 6,420 licensed businesses, the most in a decade."