Talk:Alliance of Women Directors

Fox Global Directors Initiative and Sundance
Fox Global Directors Initiative [not in citation given] Please note that when you click the "Who are the nominating organizations for FDI?" "+" on that page you get a list of the nominating organizations, including "Alliance of Women Directors". The cite does support the assertion in the article text. Carl Henderson (talk) 18:00, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't add the failed verification tag to that particular sentence. That was done by by the . I agree with their adding of the tag and I think you're removal of it is premature.


 * First problem is that WP:RSCONTEXT says "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article." The sentence in the article says "The AWD has also partnered with organizations such as Sundance Institute[5] and the Fox Global Directors Initiative[6] towards achieving the group's aims." Maybe we are just splitting hairs here, but the phrasing "partnered with....to achieve the group's aims" seems to imply a much deeper relationship between the three. Neither source says anything of the such; In fact, each source only mentions the AWD once as part of a list of other organizations associated with each respective project. The FGDI calls refers to all these organizations as "nominators" and lists about 30 organizations while "Sundance" source (I've added quotes around Sundance for a reason which I will explain below) refers to them as "Allied organizations" and lists about 20 organizations. Neither source singles out the AWD in a way that would imply something a strong as a "partnership". This seems a little undue and more an interpretation or synthesis than what the sources actually say.


 * Second problem is with the "Sundance" source. The source does not really say the AWD is an allied organization of the Sundance Institute; Rather it says "ALLIED ORGANIZATIONS: These organizations have agreed to apply their expertise and resources to further the goals of the Women Filmmakers Initiative." (emphasis added by me). The WFI is an initiative formed by both the Sundance Institute and Woman in Film Los Angeles, but involves many other organizations as well. Once again, no "partnership" with Sundance is applied at all.


 * I think it would be much better to simply say "The AWD is both a nominator for the Fox Global Directors Initiative and allied organization of the Women Filmmakers Initiative." The would be perfectly neutral in my opinion and eliminate any problems at all regarding "RSCONTEXT". - Marchjuly (talk) 23:57, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree that your suggested text is more precise and accurate and have replaced that sentence with it. Carl Henderson (talk) 02:58, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Possible sources
I am not sure if any of these can be used to help establish notability (my personal opinion is probably not), but they may be useful for just referencing information in the article. I found them after scanning through all 44 pages of a Google search of "Alliance of Women Directors".


 * 1) "Women in Media Careers: Success Despite the Odds"
 * 2) "Guerrilla Girls: Unchain the women directors! billboard"
 * 3) "Center for the Study of Women in Television & Film"
 * 4) "Women send glass ceiling reeling"
 * 5) "Being Extra Curricular"
 * 6) "More Women Go The Indie Route Than Hollywood, USC Annebberg Study Finds"
 * 7) "Kudos to Women Filmmakers At Park City Fete"
 * 8) "Feeble excuses on female driectors"

- Marchjuly (talk) 02:20, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I'm going to go through those as well as a number I've found and see what can be reasonable and legitimately incorporated into the article. Carl Henderson (talk) 04:01, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. FWIW, I am not a fanatical deletionist, so if these help save the article, then great. As I said, however, I personally don't think any of these links help establish notability. That is what is really needed in my opinion. Something written specifically about the AWG in a major independent publication would really be good. I scanned Variety's online archives and found nothing but cursory mentions. I found nothing in either the New York Times or the Los Angeles Times. That doesn't mean something doesn't exist; It's just means it hasn't been found yet. I don't mean to belittle all of the hard work you and other's have been doing on the article. It does seem much better than it was. Even so, I don't think Wikipedia notability is something we can "give" to the subject of an article through our editing; Wikipedia notability is something that the subject of an article must "give" to us (through significant coverage in reliable sources) so that we can edit. I'll post more sources if I find any. - Marchjuly (talk) 04:41, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I've searched Filmmaker Magazine and did not find anything. I searched MovieMaker magazine and found this interview but an interview is considered to a primary source and the only mention of AWD is cursory. I also tried to find something on Empire, but had no luck there as well.
 * It's surprising and unfortunate for sure that the AWD has not received better mainstream press coverage, but Wikipedia is not really the place to try and right great wrongs or for increasing the visibility or credibility of a particular subject. It is possible, after all, that the reason an AWD article has not been created until now was simply that no Wikipedia editor was able to find the sources needed to establish the group's notability. This article was directly added into the mainspace by who may not have been too familiar with relevant Wikipedia policies. There's nothing wrong with doing it that way per se and lots of articles are added to Wikipedia that way. The risk of ending up at AfD, however, tends to be greater than if the article is added via WP:AFC. - Marchjuly (talk) 06:53, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Billboard
At 15:20, 20 March 2015 User:Ritchie333 added, "In 2006, the group ran a billboard at Sunset and Cahuenga in Hollywood reading "Unchain the Women Directors", explaining only 7% of the top 200 films released the previous year had been directed by women." However, the cited source Bollinger & O'Neill 2008, p. 90 attributes that billboard to two other groups—The Guerrilla Girls and Movies By Women—not to AWD. Moreover, a contemporaneous WP:RS confirms that the billboard was "a coproduction of the Guerrilla Girls and Movies by Women, grassroots collectives." It does not mention AWD. JohnValeron (talk) 16:40, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I had speculated that would be the case, I was just struggling to see in the source who was responsible. I'm having no joy whatsoever trying to save this article :-( Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  16:48, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The Guerrilla Girls page on the billboard does list the AWD as on of the organizations that "contributed to" the billboard at the bottom. I found that source in my first run through of searching but did not think that the connection of AWD to the story was strong enough to warrant inclusion. Carl Henderson (talk) 17:38, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

H-D Contest
At 15:56, 20 March 2015 User:Ritchie333 added, "In 2008, the alliance ran a competition for films directed by women. The winner, Victoria Rose Sampson (with Need for Speed) received a prize of $5,000 and new camera equipment." However, the cited source states, "Harley-Davidson's Bar & Shield was on the A-list in Hollywood last Thursday night as The Motor Company held a premiere party for the winners of its 'Bikes, Camera, Action!' contest." The Motor Company is presumably Harley-Davidson, which prominently displays the phrase "Motor Company" on its corporate logo. The source refers to the Alliance of Women Directors only once, indicating that Ms. Sampson had learned about the competition through an e-mail from AWD. JohnValeron (talk) 17:01, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The source says "after learning about the competition through an e-mail from The Alliance of Women Directors", suggesting the AWD had something to do with it, unless they were just browsing randomly. I'll reword it. And that, is pretty much the extent of everything I can find. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  17:09, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Ritchie333, you're trying too hard and making beginner's mistakes. The article's entire, 3-sentence History section is embarrassingly weak. It only serves to highlight the AWD's near total lack of recognized accomplishments over its 18-year lifespan. JohnValeron (talk) 17:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think it's angry mastodons getting in the way from people complaining about the AfD all over the internet. But you'll note I haven't changed my vote at the AfD from delete, and even after what I've added, it's still nowhere near enough to get a keep closure. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  17:29, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I've found a few more sources (including the Time one Ritchie333 added). I'm going to evaluate them and see if any can be used. I'm also planning a trip to a brick and mortar university library this weekend to run down a print-only source for another article I'm writing. I will see if there is anything on the AWD I can access via their resources while I'm there. There is still a lot of stuff from the late 90s and early 00s that has not made it on to the web. I think the article can be saved, and that it has come a long way in just three days. Carl Henderson (talk) 17:49, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Never have so many struggled so mightily to resuscitate a stillborn article. JohnValeron (talk) 18:03, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You've got to be careful, in early 2007, this might have been considered "not a chance". Ritchie333 <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  21:17, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, my trip to the university library (UT Dallas) was a bust. Their periodicals section was closed for re-carpeting, and their catalog system was down, too! I miss card catalogs sometimes. I did find a source I needed for an article I am researching for a mid-20th century french astronomer, so that's good. Nothing for AWD, though. Carl Henderson (talk) 05:59, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Alliance of Women Directors Potential Sources
I was given a number of possible sources for the AWD article via Twitter from AWD members. This is my analysis of the citations and their applicability to the Wikipedia article. I'd appreciate comments on my comments.

I believe the article needs—in addition to the existing sources—is one good major media article (local, national, or industry media) focusing entirely or almost entirely on the Alliance of Women Directors. Carl Henderson (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Women still making few inroads in directing field Rob Lowman 02/18/15 Los Angeles Daily News http://www.dailynews.com/arts-and-entertainment/20150218/women-still-making-few-inroads-in-directing-field

AWD Related Content: "Maria Burton, who was the co-chair of The Alliance of Women Directors for six years, said that the good news is that some statistics now to show the inequity, but “no matter how you slice and dice it, through all the years, through all the genres, in front and behind the camera, women are vastly underrepresented."

Comment: Useful—already in the AWD Wikipedia article Carl Henderson (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Sundance Institute and Women In Film Los Angeles Study Examines Gender Disparity in Independent Film January 21st, 2013 Stacy L. Smith, Ph.D., Katherine Pieper, Ph.D. and Marc Choueiti Annenberg School for Communication and Journalism, University of Southern California http://dotorg-cms-production-live.cfapps.io/blogs/news/sundance-institute-and-women-in-film-los-angeles-study-examines-gender-disp

AWD Related Content: "These Allied Organizations will be involved in and lend counsel to the project, and include: AFI; Alliance of Women Directors [...]"

Comment: Marginally Useful—already in the AWD Wikipedia article (along with the Fox Global Directors Initiative) Carl Henderson (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Women Directors: Can We Sue The Studios? November 6, 2012 Maria Giese Women Directors in Hollywood http://www.womendirectorsinhollywood.com/women-directors-can-we-sue-the-studios-2/

AWD Related Content: "There are many organizations that represent women directors, including Women in Film, the Alliance of Women Directors, and Women Make Movies."

''Comment: This just says AWD exists. Articles that talk about the problem AWD was created to help address don't really help. In Wikipedia terms (by my understanding) AWD can't inherit notability from the notability of its cause.'' Carl Henderson (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Cannes' Female Director Problem Highlighted By 2012 Selection Huffington Post Joe Satran 04/19/2012 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/19/cannes-film-festival-female-director_n_1438632.html

AWD Related Content: "When you're talking about Cannes bait, you're really talking about complex dramas, which tend to be difficult to finance in the U.S.," explained director Jacqui Barcos, a boardmember of the Alliance of Women Directors, which works to improve gender parity in the industry. "If they are complex, the only way to get them financed is to have a big-name director, because then the investors are assured it'll be a masterpiece. And many of the most talented female directors are still relatively unproven, so investors don't want to take a chance."

Comment: Useful—already in the AWD Wikipedia article. Carl Henderson (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Welcome New Members, March-April 2006 Tamara Krinsky Documentary Magazine March / April 2006 http://www.documentary.org/feature/welcome-new-members-march-april-2006-0

AWD Related Content: "Judy Chaikin [...] sits on the board of directors of the Alliance of Women Directors."

''Comment: Under Wikipedia rules, this would help establish notability for Judy Chaikin, but not so much the AWD. AWD can't inherit notability from the notability of its members. (That's what I'm told by more experienced Wikipedia editors).'' Carl Henderson (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Producers Guild of America Diversity: West Coast Committee http://pgadiversity.org/about-us/west-coast/

AWD Related Content: "Julie Janata is an Emmy Award-winning producer, an editor and director of independent films [...] Julie is President Emeritus of Alliance of Women Directors."

''Comment: Same as for Judy Chaikin source above. AWD can't inherit notability from the notability of its members.'' Carl Henderson (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

These Are the Best Unproduced Screenplays with Female Protagonists Time Lily Rothman February 6, 2014 http://time.com/4975/athena-list-female-protagonists/

AWD Related Content: "Filmmaker Gabrielle Burton cites a positive example of something parallel managing to get that job done: the movie she’s currently directing (A Sort of Homecoming) was a gig she got thanks to the producer deciding to look to the Alliance of Women Directors for someone to work with. The Athena List, Burton says, is another way that a “mindful approach” to gender in filmmaking can help with the problem of under representation."

Comment: Useful—already referenced the AWD Wikipedia article, but I think it is worth making a bit more of, as Time is a high quality source. Carl Henderson (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

The Girls in the Band Get Down Cultural Weekly Sophia Stein August 1, 2013 http://www.culturalweekly.com/the-girls-in-the-band-get-down/

AWD Related Content: "The film first came to my attention through the numerous email postings I was receiving from members of The Alliance of Women Directors in Los Angeles, who could not stop showering Chaikin with praise for her achievement."

Comment: Not really useful for Wikipedia purposes, as it is just a mention of AWD in passing. Carl Henderson (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Resources women of cinematicarts http://uscwca.org/resources

Whois Info on uscwca.org Admin Name: Karin Schneider Admin Organization: Women in Cinematic Arts Admin Street: Office Topping Student Center Admin Street: 3607 Trousdale Parkway C/O PLC Admin City: Los Angeles Admin State/Province: California Admin Postal Code: 90089

AWD Related Content: "Alliance of Women Directors, established in 1997, is the only organization solely dedicated to education, support and advocacy for women directors in the entertainment industry. Each member has achieved professional status by having directed at least one long or short-form narrative film, television program, documentary, commercial or new media program that has been recognized by the creative community."

"The organization fosters a community of professionals to advance the art, craft and visibility of women directors in the world of film, television and new media. AWD is dedicated to create opportunity for women's voices in our industry, because we believe it is vital that stories are told from all perspectives."

Disclaimer: "This website is independently managed by members of Women of Cinematic Arts and not endorsed by the University of Southern California."

''Comment: Depending on the level of affiliation that women of cinematicarts has with USC, this could be very useful. But it stands or falls in the Wikipedia world based on how close it is to a recognized academic organization. That's why I pulled the Whois info for uscwca.org domain (it is operated out of a university building) and noted the disclaimer "not endorsed by the University of Southern California". However, when you do a search for "Women of Cinematic Arts" on the USC website, you get dozens of hits, which does go to strongly imply an affiliation. And it is unclear if "Women of Cinematic Arts" is a student group, and alumni group, or both. I think it might be worth using as it is independent confirmation of some of the basics about the AWD, but I'm uncertain whether it will pass muster.'' Carl Henderson (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * User:Carl Henderson, thank you for your hard work and especially for going the extra mile and summarizing each of these resources instead of just pasting a bunch of links and saying, "Here you go, guys & gals—have at it! I'm outa here!" Regrettably, I think your two short paragraphs quoting AWD-related content from cinematicarts exemplify our larger problem. Both paragraphs tell us what AWD is "dedicated" to, but neither reports what AWD has actually done. It's astounding that such a "dedicated" organization can, after 18 years of continuous existence, leave a virtually undetectable footprint on the media landscape. JohnValeron (talk) 02:43, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Vampires & Good Deeds – News Round-up #4 Hollywomen Fabien Hurelle October 12, 2014 http://hollywomen.com/news-vampires/

AWD Related Content: "New Models of Distribution Panel - The Alliance of Women Directors board member Hilari Scarl and Sarah Moshman, director of The Empowerment Project, organized a panel on film distribution in Los Angeles on October 7. Hosted by the former and featuring the latter, the panel counted Sheri Candler (Film Collective) and Seed&Spark CEO Emily Best as guests." The Diversity Directory Hollywomen http://hollywomen.com/directory/

AWD Related Content: "Alliance of Women Directors - Community of professionals to advance the art, craft and visibility of women directors" List of Fellowships & Mentorships for Women & Diverse Filmmakers Fabien Hurelle October 12, 2014 Hollywomen http://hollywomen.com/workshops/

AWD Related Content: "Alliance of Women Directors Shadowing Program - Los Angeles; December; Follow a TV director during the shooting of an episode; Female director with AWD membership"

''Comment: The three "Hollywomen" references are not very useful—mostly because Hollywomen appears to be blog-like source. Such sources are not considered useful under "Wikipedia Law" to establish notability. If the "Alliance of Women Directors Shadowing Program" has not already been mentioned, this might be a source for that.'' Carl Henderson (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Two More Potential Sources for AWD Article
'''¿por qué los estudios no confían en ellas? Hollywood echa a las mujeres del negocio''' El Confidencial Eva Catalán September 12, 2014 http://www.elconfidencial.com/cultura/2014-12-09/hollywood-echa-a-las-mujeres-del-negocio_579515/

AWD Related Content: "Creo que los estudios se han decidido por ella, en parte, por la gran presión que había", explica a El Confidencial Maria Burton, directora de documentales, largometrajes y anuncios y presidenta emérita de AWD (Alliance of Women Directors), una organización que desde 1997 se dedica a apoyar proyectos de mujeres en Hollywood.

Google Translate: "I think the studies have been decided by it, in part, by the great pressure that he had" explained to The Confidential Maria Burton, director of documentaries, feature films and commercials and president emeritus of AWD (Alliance of Women Directors), an organization that since 1997 is dedicated to supporting women's projects in Hollywood.

''Comment: Again this is what might be characterized as a passing mention, but it serves to help demonstrate the notability of AWD, and could replace an AWD site reference in the opening paragraph. El Confidencial seems to be a mainstream reliable source (though in Spanish).'' Carl Henderson (talk) 23:41, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

How a Film Salon Celebrated Women Directors on Wikipedia Indiewire: Thompson on Hollywood Anne Thompson March 26, 2015 http://blogs.indiewire.com/thompsononhollywood/how-a-film-salon-celebrated-women-directors-on-wikipedia-20150326

AWD Related Content: Below is the list of the Salon writers' Wikipedia pages, some of which were deleted by Wikipedia because they didn't match their "notability" requirements. That can be a self-perpetuating circle. It seems that you often have to build "consensus" rules for "relevance." Such women's organizations as the Alliance of Women Directors that don't get enough press coverage, said Best, "have an additional burden of research for the time being."

''Comment: This source brings Wikipedia itself into the story, so I'm not sure how that affects the usability of the source according to Wikipedia rules. I do remember reading about a huge controversy over the Guardian article on Wikipedia and Gamergate, but I don't know how that was resolved. However, unlike that Guardian article, this seems like a reasonably factual take on the Wikipedia process.''

''Indiewire seems to be a reputable source for film industry news. They do have bloggers—and this story is from one Thompson on Hollywood—but from the way the blogs are presented, they seem more akin to columnists for newspapers. I'm not sure that makes a difference. I'm personally skeptical of the idea that newspaper/magazine = reliable source but blog != reliable source, but that's not my call in this context.'' Carl Henderson (talk) 23:41, 26 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Anne Thompson's Indiewire post mentions Alliance of Women Directors only once, in passing, as an example of women's organizations that—in the opinion of Emily Best—don't get enough press coverage. Far from enhancing AWD's notability, this brief allusion inadvertently confirms that AWD has, during its 18-year history, failed to achieve adequate recognition. Kent Krupa (talk) 23:04, 26 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I disagree. I think it is not reasonable to claim, on one hand, that an organization is not notable because it has not been reported on often enough in the media, and then to turn around and cite an additional media reference as further evidence it has not been reported upon enough to be notable.Carl Henderson (talk) 23:47, 26 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The problem is this "additional media reference" is merely one supporter who mentions AWD a single time. How is that notable? Kent Krupa (talk) 23:58, 26 March 2015 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that references in reliable sources help establish notability, not that references have to be notable in and of themselves. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. I really prefer working on articles where everyone involved is non-sentient or long-dead! Carl Henderson (talk) 01:59, 27 March 2015 (UTC)