Talk:Allison Mack/Archives/2020

Opening paragraph
I a change to the Opening paragraph because it was grammatically wrong and I disagree with the sentence being moved. Looking at the guidelines for an opening paragraph, I think the primary reason for her being famous should at least be listed first. However someone has. Example of a similar article for a famous person with criminal charges as a reference. I will leave it for now but if you agree feel free to again revert this change.

Nationality
Per the talkpage history, Mack is described as "a German-born American" actress because her West German birth resulted in past problems with editors arguing that she is, in fact, a German actress. While it's not generally the case that a birthplace is included in the lede in this manner, in this specific instance it was done so to head off well-intended but inaccurate edits "correcting" her nationality. Grandpallama (talk) 14:11, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * She is certainly not German, and if you insist on being 100% factual, she would be "a West-German-born American" because when she was born the country was called "West Germany". The point is that as far as I can tell from the biography, she was not raised in Germany, so it would be deceptive to write in the lead sentence that she is "a German-born American". American should be good enough unless we know that she spent time growing up in West Germany to an age in which she would be able to remember West Germany. Banana Republic (talk) 15:23, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You did not at all respond to the substance of my point, which is that there is a particular reason that "German-born American" has been used, because She is certainly not German is absolutely correct; American should be good enough, and yet multiple users rewrote the lede to state otherwise. Did you even read what I wrote, or bother to check the talkpage before you made assertions? Grandpallama (talk) 15:28, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Just because other editors have been trying to push "German-American" does not mean that there should be a compromise of "German-born American". She is certainly not "German-American", and based on the early life section of the article it would be misleading to call her a "German-born American" because it appears that she came out of her mother's womb at a time when her mother happened to be in Germany, and she herself did not really grow up in Germany. Banana Republic (talk) 15:36, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think calling her a German-American actress is a misnomer, but I also think it's good to be cagey about definitively declaring she's not German-American; Germany has birthright citizenship (which is yet another reason this compromise was used). Also, your statement that someone is not German-born just because she was born at a time when her mother happened to be in Germany is nonsensical. Finally, including information to avoid problematic editing on a particular topic is absolutely the sort of situation where we make a compromise on Wikipedia. I've presented reasoning for why this material should be included, both because her status falls into a slight gray area and because it has been used to head off disruptive editing; so far, from what I see, you are repeating that you think it's unnecessary. Do you have any objection beyond not liking it? Grandpallama (talk) 15:45, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Calling her German-born gives the impression that she was born to German parents or has some sort of connection to Germany besides just her place of birth. It is misleading. There are many Americans who are born overseas on Wikipedia that are simply called American. WP:MOS/Bio states what should be included is "location or nationality". She has contributed absolutely nothing to German film or television (her entire filmography is American), and her citizenship is only clearly American. You say Germany has birthright citizenship, but for those born in Germany to non-German parents to keep their German citizenship from expiring they must have "resided in Germany for at least eight years during their 21 first years of life, attended a school in Germany for at least six years, graduated from a school in Germany, or successfully finished vocational/ professional training in Germany" by the time they're 23 and there's no evidence Mack has done so. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 16:00, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for providing the info about citizenship; can you provide a link? As I said, it was not clear to me what the status was. On your points about her being obviously not a German actress, as I said, I'm in full agreement. The information was provided to head off disruptive editing, but it's not normally something we include, I agree; I'm familiar with the MOS, but consensus at an individual article to deal with issues specific to that article can always override the MOS, and the MOS itself acknowledges that "location" might be as important to include as nationality. If we remove it as a matter of consensus, that's fine, but it wasn't just casually thrown in. Grandpallama (talk) 16:08, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see you pulled this from the Wikipedia article on German nationality law. But you see that the requirements you mentioned specifically refer to children born in Germany, to non-German parents, after 1 January 2000. It seems like Mack might still fall in a gray area, then. I don't know what the birthright citizenship laws were pre-2000, or for West Germany vs. unified Germany. Grandpallama (talk) 16:17, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

It seems that if the only reason to call her "German-born American" was as a compromise to editors who wanted to call her "German-American", then it was not a good compromise. Banana Republic (talk) 16:37, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you've said that. Again, beyond the fact that you don't like it, do you have any reasoning to remove it? Jjj1238's argument that it's not recommended by the MOS is the closest I've seen, but the MOS is a guideline that we can override when we have an issue to deal with on an individual article. The MOS also notably doesn't exclude listing a birth location as well as nationality. Grandpallama (talk) 16:47, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't see a consensus here to override the MOS. Banana Republic (talk) 17:38, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The MOS also notably doesn't exclude listing a birth location as well as nationality. Grandpallama (talk) 18:07, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Of note, according to an interview she gave, Mack lived in Germany for two years and her first acting job was a campaign of print ads and commercials for a German company: “'My very first job was a commercial for German chocolate and it was all in German,' she recalls." I found numerous references to this being her start in acting, which I would say lends weight to the argument that her connection to Germany is a bit greater than just having been born there. Grandpallama (talk) 18:39, 6 May 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:MOSETHNICITY is very clear - "Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." - her birth in Germany, to American parents temporarily in Germany, and living there for two years - before returning to the United states - is completely irrelevant in regards to her notability. A commercial for German chocolate has no bearing on Mack's notability. This is a project guideline, not to be overridden lightly. Icewhiz (talk) 07:57, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd dispute the notion that it was overridden lightly, but your argument is cogent, and more importantly, it pretty clearly supports that consensus has shifted (based upon the number of folks in this discussion pushing for that version) to remove the info from the lede. I'm happy to abide by consensus, which is all I'd ever really pushed for when this first became an issue. Thanks for responding on the talk! Grandpallama (talk) 13:44, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how long a person lived in any given country, or how much that person remembers of a country they were born in. It doesn't matter how they "feel" about it. It doesn't matter if they "really" grew up in said country. There is no extra "weight" to an "argument" about "just having been born there".

What matters is the law of that specific country.

For example the law of the USA and of the UK (prior to 1981 or so) was that any person born in that territory was automatically a US citizen or a British citizen, regardless of parents' nationalities. So, ironically (because this particular person is somehow an exception on Wikipedia), Gerry Adams having been born in the UK before 1981 is actually British - despite his obvious disdain for that. I'm not sure about US law, but for a British Citizen, in order to become NOT British one has to pay a fee to the government, also be accepted when you petition (the Monarchy, I think) and also not be rendered stateless in doing so.

It doesn't matter if that person spend fifty years, five years, five months, five days, five hours or five minutes in the country they were born in - the legal system of that particular country is what renders the facts. (Again, Gerry Adams seems to be an exception on Wikipedia). Nor does it matter what they remember, if anything, about that country.

So, if Mack had British parents and was born in the USA, then she would be a US citizen and also entitled to British citizenship.

So what has to be ascertained are basically two things:


 * What were the laws in West Germany at the time of her birth?
 * In what way, if any, does the reunification of Germany affect those laws as pertaining to Mack?

As for any guideline or policy regarding previous nationalities or place of birth, I think that is a weird policy to have. Amongst the first questions you ask about someone is "Where were you born?", secondary to "When were you born?". I'd love to know the rationale behind the idea of not including such rudimentary facts as this.

Of course, I feel sure there are plenty of examples in other Wikipedia articles in which place of birth (if different to current nationality etc) is mentioned when it is not particularly relevant to the subject.

Finally, because she is an actor, Mack's first job as such was in an advertisment for chocolate in the country of her birth. That is relevant to the subject. --82.21.97.70 (talk) 23:19, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 July 2020
Source for the 2008 Syfy genre award, "citation needed", source can be found here with the Wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20080825092527/http://www.syfyportal.com/news425320.html AaronInt (talk) 18:05, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 20:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 October 2020
Intern2020 (talk) 15:19, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Wham2001 (talk) 15:50, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2020
I would like to request an edit please. Intern2020 (talk) 16:50, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:38, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Personal info
"Mack and co-star Kristin Kreuk have become close friends, and have started a new clothing line together (along with others). Allison is also an accomplished dancer and singer, and currently lives in Vancouver. She enjoys reading, making art, going to movies and plays and spending time with her friends and family. She has two tattoos: the Dawn Faery by Brian Froud on her right ankle and a "P" near her heart". Allison Mack was recently arrested for sex trafficking and branding her slaves. Clare Bronfman, an heir to the Seagram’s liquor fortune, according to authorities. Allison could do 15 years to life for the illegal activity.

the part that regards the tatoos is suspicious, as it isn't cited. please remove it unless you can find a reliable source about it. 87.68.21.28 (talk) 17:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

www.nytimes.com/2018/05/30/magazine/sex-cult-empowerment-nxivm-keith-raniere.html : In her apartment, I was surprised to hear Mack take full responsibility for coming up with the DOS cauterized brand. She told me, “I was like: ‘Y’all, a tattoo? People get drunk and tattooed on their ankle ‘BFF,’ or a tramp stamp. I have two tattoos and they mean nothing.’ ” She wanted to do something more meaningful, something that took guts. 79.78.205.113 (talk) 08:49, 24 November 2020 (UTC)