Talk:Alma, Safad

Stuff
I don't have time to research this seriously right now, but I found some interesting information here. I kinda doubt this is a reliable source despite Shpak Lissak being a historian.

I think it should be pretty easy to verify the information about Jewish populations prior to 19th century. I found this. Also, more information about the Algerian inhabitants would be interesting. The PEF reports them as Algerian, so apparently it wasn't exactly a secret.

Also, here's some info about the inscriptions. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:49, 1 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Have you read the article? Zero has inserted the 1596 census data; there were indeed a handful of Jewish residents here. As for the "Algerians": the followers of Abd al-Qadir were sent into exile (with their leader), some of them settled in the Safad-area, into existing villages. Not only Alma. Many of them were horse-men, and were very "visible" in the landscape. This isn´t exactly unfamiliar to anyone with an interest in the history of the area. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 14:57, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have read the article. Zero has indeed inserted the 1596 census data. There is more information, as you can see in the URL I posted above, as well as the Alma, Israel article.
 * Yes, I am also aware of the Algerians settling in the Safad area. The fact PEF says the village contains 250 "Algerine Mohammedans" might suggest the population was mostly or even exclusively Algerian. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:08, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought the Algerians were mostly single men? That only "the top brass" took their family with them into exile? In short, they eventually married into the local families? As for SWP-stuff; if you read it; it is very useful, but no-one can deny that they had "their angle" about noting stuff. Indeed; their whole reason for being there had one specific goal; -and it was *not* to give an objective view of Palestine. And if you suggest that the population was mostly or even exclusively Algerian; it begs the question: what happen to the descendants of the 1596-population?  Cheers, Huldra (talk) 15:23, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added the info from Schwarz provided by No More Mr Nice Guy above. I'm not convinced Lissak's article, which is self-published, is an WP:RS, so I will not add anything from it (It also seems to be somehwat selective in its focus, as though it were trying to prove a thesis, rather than document history). Anyway, does anyone know where Guerin discusses Alma? I tried to find it in this work, but its not discussed there. Anyone know which work it is discussed in and how I can access it? Thanks.  T i a m u t talk 15:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I´m quite certain it is in the  "Galilee" -part of  Guerin: not yet on the net, AFAIK, (but wait a year or two!)Huldra (talk) 15:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Dammnit ... I wish we had a decent library in Nazareth, or a university, or some kind of higher learning facility that stored rare books. Oh well ...  T i a m u t talk 15:37, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I wouldn´t worry; the old books are getting scanned and put online at an amazing rate. I bought leStrange, 1890, 3-4 years ago, not exactly cheap, ...and now anyone can download it for free....So just wait. With Guerin it is a bit strange, though: it looks as if there are many different copies scanned of the first books in the series, ..and then no scan at all for the last ones. Huldra (talk) 17:49, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * What happened to the descendants of the Jewish families that lived there in 1596 population? I don't know. This is why I was bringing it up here.
 * I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying about PEF. That they said they were Algerians because...? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:42, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously, a society of 7 families will simply not survive in the long run, without "new blood". Any society needs a certain minimum size to survive; and 7 families does not meet that level. There is a difference between that, and the much larger Muslim population of Alma (which was also surrounded by other Muslims).
 * And the PEF were looking for Jewish and Christian remains, that was their stated goal, ....and, surprise, surprise; that was what they found. (For me it was quite informative to read about some of these explorers utter, total disappointment when exploring Khirbat al-Minya, they found that it was "only" ....Umayyad..) And when they didn´t go looking for Jewish and Christian remains, they also noted (sometimes quite out of proportions) -anything "exotic", things that some would today put under the heading of "Orientalism", but in their time would interest their fellow Victorians. Such as stories about "Algerines", Cheers, Huldra (talk) 17:49, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Naturally, the PEF publications are a product of their times. They certainly were Orientalists by today's definition. That said, I think anyone carrying out a similar venture to the SOWP, even today, would note a village populated by people who weren't local. It's not "exotic" as much as "notable". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:43, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Sources to add

 * Bibliotheca sacra, Volume 12 (1855) : pages 825 - 832 describe a new Protestant community at Alma, the Sheikh of Alma, its being the only inhabited village in the area called "Ladder of Tyre", though the area did abound with Arabs living in tents (presumably Bedouins), author expresses his belief Alma is Umma, and more ...  T i a m u t talk 17:43, 1 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Umma is probably Alma - this can't be the same Umma discussed here, right?  T i a m u t talk 17:58, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No the coordinates indicate it is a place in Lebanon called Aalma ech Chaab. Zerotalk 08:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)  (I see you found it with a different spelling.)


 * The land of Israel: a journal of travels in Palestine (1865): page 89 - seems that these Protestants are Arabs as after a travelling companion of Tristram's says he saw a monkey in the vicinity, the villagers of Alma, described as Protestants, tell him there are many nisnas (Arabic for small monkeys) in the area.  T i a m u t talk 17:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)


 * 'Alma esh Shaub or Alma Shaab is referred to by some (recall that Robinson refers to Alma el-Khait) - could these be the two different names for the two different Alma's discussed in the 1920 book above?  T i a m u t talk 18:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Update: seems Alma Shaab is in south Lebanon very close to the border.  T i a m u t talk 18:19, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Evangelical Christendom, Volumes 13-14 (1859) - to be taken with a grain of salt of course, given its a missionary account, but it gives the number of Protestants at Alma as 80.  T i a m u t talk 18:17, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The Alma discussed here: p.826, is "our" Alma..he starts out his travel by Al-Kabri (notes on the aquaducts there), but note also that he in 1855 writes that they were "recently established"...it is not sure that they lasted long! I´ve read elsewhere (was it Finn?) about these missionaries who wrote home and made a huge fuzz about a few converts. That was what they were there for...they had to "show their success". -Huldra (talk) 18:30, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

There's more about the Protestants at Alma and other Arabs in The land and the book, or biblical illustrations of the Holy Land (1864). See pages 288-290, 295-297 (290-295 are a long soliloquy on the superiority of Protestantism - interesting insight into why McClure was there, but scant on details about the place). Anyway, this account agrees with much of what is in the Bibliotheca Sacra. I'll start adding material to the article soon. I'm just mining the sources a little more to see where there is consensus and which provide exceptional claims that should be attributed directly to them.

One a side note, we have some Protestant Arabs in Nazareth too. Because there's no "p" in Arabic, we call them ''Bratestante". :)  T i a m u t talk 18:47, 1 May 2010 (UTC)


 * GUERIN!!!! p. 149 (rough translation): "Return to Alma - At 6:50pm, continuing to advance towards the east in a narrow gorge, I saw that it widened bit by bit into a beautiful and [riante=?] valley planted with vines, figs, pomegranates, citrus, irrigated and fertilized by the waters of the Alma Spring. At 7:10pm, I passed beside this abundant source, where all the women of Alma were constrained, despite the distance and difficulty of the route, to come each day to get their water provisions. This route, in effect, was practiced into the rock on very steep slopes that ressembled a long, interminable staircase, of which the stages are mostly used and very slippery. Finally, at 7:35pm, after a laborious ascension, I returned to the village."  T i a m u t talk 08:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


 * more PEF (p.205) - mentions graves of famous Rabbis as well as various travelers visiting the place. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:17, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Do we have any mention of Protestants that are definitely for this Alma? I'm not at all sure. The "Ladder of Tyre" is generally placed on the coast near the Lebanese Alma. Here is another mention of Protestants at Alma which is clearly the wrong one. Zerotalk 01:29, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * That "other", partly Christian Alma is north of Al-Bassa, on SWP map 3, called Alma esh Shaab, presently in the Tyre District, SWPI:150. And in Guerin, 1880, Galilee 2,  pp. 136, p. 149. This is really messy, though, as Robinson, and Finn both calls it/places *this* Alma in "the Khait", however, SWP does not have any such  name. Instead they have the name "the Khait" around Alma  esh Shaab!!!   (And yeah: both  Robinson, and Finn checks out (by following their surroundings/initiary) that they were writing about *this* Alma.  Huldra (talk) 19:50, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Al-Rihaniyya
The elementary school is linked to Al-Rihaniyya. Are we sure that's correct? That's pretty far away. I think it's more likely the Circasian village Rehaniya, which is much closer. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:51, 1 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Should be Rehaniya. Seems there were two villages of the same name (not uncommon) which are transliterated here entirely differently (also not uncommon). I'll change it now.  T i a m u t talk 18:56, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Rehaniya seems like Hebrew transliteration (possibly from official Israeli publications) and Al-Rihaniyya is the Arabic transliteration from Khalidi. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:12, 1 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Same same. Anyway I made the change and added disambig headers linking each of the two articles to one another so that people looking for the other one can find it.  T i a m u t talk 19:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Two villages in 1908?
"At Ras el Ahmar, 'Alma, and Deishun there are Algerians. In a separate village of 'Alma, on the same plain and within sight of its namesake, there is a large settlement of Circassians, a race which has also settled in other spots." — E. W. G. Masterman, Upper Galilee, The Biblical World, Vol. 32, No. 4 (Oct., 1908), 226+234-241. Zerotalk 10:48, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, its seems there were two. I've moved this comment down here from above:
 * A handbook of Syria: including Palestine (1920): page 554, can only see excerpts, but it says "Algerians have settlements at Ras el-Ahmar, 'Alma, ... Circassians live in a separate village of 'Alma and at other spots. ... Taken as a whole the people of Northern Palestine are, physically, finer than those of Southern Palestine." Was there more than one Alma, or two parts of the same village? Where are the Protestants described above?  T i a m u t talk 18:02, 1 May 2010 (UTC)  T i a m u t talk 10:53, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

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POV
Do we write, in the lead of the articles, say, Kiryat Ata, Petah Tikva, Merhavia, that they were Arab/Palestinian places earlier? No, we don't, even if they have a longer period of habitation as an Arab/Palestinian place, than as a Jewish settlement.

Also, the sentence "The village was totally destroyed in the earthquake of January 1837" is sourced to Nicholas N. Ambraseys, 1997-article; I have read the article, and I cannot see that he mentions Alma, at all? And note that Robinson and Smith (who travelled in the area in 1838) notes the place as a village, NOT a ruin, (Ruins were denoted with a * after the name).

And Guerin says nothing about "Alegrine Muslims", neither does Finn, so the "rebuilt and inhabited by Muslims of Algerian origin" seems to be pure fiction? Yes, followers of  Emir Abdelkader were exiled to the area, but that was long after 1837.

And worst of all, writing that "In medieval times, Alma was a Jewish settlement" ..in the lead(!) -when it had  288 Muslim households and 140 Muslim bachelors, and 7 Jewish households and 1 Jewish bachelor in the 1500?(Defter from  1595/6, or 1548/9)

The problem with sources like Benjamin of Tudela is that they only note Jewish resident; were there 500 Muslims in addition to the 50 Jews? Or 5000 Muslims? We simply do not know. But this sherry-picking is as bad (referred to above, under "Stuff") that of Rivka Shpak Lissak, who only reports Jewish tax-payers, not Muslim(!) -and calls "Modern Alma was a Jewish Town Until the 17th Century"? So if a town/village had between 1-5% Jewish population, it was a "Jewish town? Huldra (talk) 23:42, 9 June 2023 (UTC)


 * But by all means, add some of the older Jewish history, but be aware that Guerin took Isaac Chelo for beeing a good source, when it that was most likely a forgery by Eliakim Carmoly, Huldra (talk) 23:55, 9 June 2023 (UTC)