Talk:Alonso Pita da Veiga

Accuracy?
I can find no mention of this name in any published sources I have on the Battle of Pavia. What I can find:

Francis Hackett, Francis the First: "Then Lannoy reached him. The Flemish viceroy of Naples knelt to the defeated king.  He kissed Francis's sword hand, took his sword from him, gave him his own.  Francis was his prisoner." (292).

Angus Konstam, Pavia 1525: The Climax of the Italian Wars: "Lannoy, who by then had returned to the scene, is reputed to have ridden into the fray and rescued the king, defending him at sword point from his own men. French sources disagree, and a number of people claimed the glory of capturing the king." (73).

Charles Oman, A History of the Art of War in the Sixteenth Century: "Francis himself fought fiercely, even after his horse had been killed, was thrown down slightly wounded, and would have been killed by a Spanish foot-soldier if M. de Pomperant, one of the Constable Bourbon's exiled partisans, had not arrived in time to save his life. He was taken before the Viceroy Lannoy, who received his sword..." (212).

It seems clear that, even if this man did claim to have captured Francis, the claim is heavily disputed. At a minimum, (a) this needs to be indicated and (b) some reliable sources for his existence (quite aside from his role at Pavia) need to be cited. Kirill Lokshin 15:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * RECOMMENDATION FOR THE EXCEPTICS: This link has a book in Spanish, Italian and English about the Battle of Pavia and Pita da Veiga's Role in capturing Francis I of France. For only € 15.00 might be worth buying the book and getting your facts right, don't you think so?
 * http://www2.lagaleriactiva.com/producto.asp?cod_em=centrallibrera&cod=260
 * Usser: Charles Wessex -- 20:13, 20 August 2006


 * This web (In Spanish) says that the Emperor Charles I of Spain (i.e.: Kaiser Karl V of the Roman Empire) gave Pita da Veiga a Coat of Arms for being one of the tree guys who captured Francis I.
 * http://www.art-marble.com/escudos/lista1/p.html
 * Usser: Charles Wessex -- 20:16, 20 August 2006


 * Web sources aren't really acceptable here; for a claim of this magnitude, we need reputable published sources (books by history professors would be good). Kirill Lokshin 20:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

This links (In Italian) give a little bit more information about a document which is in the possession of the direct descendants of Pita da Veiga (Madrid) and the book published in Pavia about the historical battle fought in this Italian location, as well as the role of Pita da Veiga in the capture of Francis I.


 * http://www.labattagliadipavia.it/attiv.htm
 * http://www.labattagliadipavia.it/foto5.htm
 * http://www.labattagliadipavia.it/lib1.htm
 * Usser: Charles Wessex -- 09:56, 21 August 2006

To add to the list of sources, here's his biography on the Spanish Royal Academy of History website. http://dbe.rah.es/biografias/86750/alonso-pita-da-veiga

There are numerous books and well-reputed secondary sources that attest to Don Alonso being responsible for the capture of Francis I. Indeed, the original document explicitly details this, as mentioned above. The only thing that is not 100% clear is who held the sword/weapon up to him. But Don Alonso was without a shadow of doubt directly involved in the capture, given the fact he was credited by the King of Spain Charles I (Holy Roman Emperor Charles V) in the aforementioned document. So yes, this page could use more sources, but there should definitely not be a "factuality disputed" box here!

2A02:C7F:7E8F:D00:FD9E:8DF3:524D:74DD (talk) 18:27, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Accurate
For instance,

Juan Carlos Losada, Batallas Decisivas de la Historia de España (Decisive battles of Spanish History), Ed. Punto de lectura, 2004 [Pavía, pg 224]:

''[...] los soldados imperiales estaban dispuestos a acabar con su vida [la de Francisco I], pero el monarca declaró su condición y se rindió ante los arcabuceros Juan de Urbieta, Diego Dávila y Alonso Pita; eran las 8:20 de la mañana. [...] Finalmente fue trasladado a Madrid, donde fue alojado en la Torre de los Lujanes [...]''

Translation:

'[...] the imperial soldiers were ready to kill him [Francis I], but the monarch identified himself and surrendered to the arquebusiers Juan de Urbieta, Diego Dávila and Alonso Pita; it was 8:20 in the morning. [...] Finally he was sent to Madrid, where he was accomodated in the Tower of the Lujanes [...]'

Juan Carlos Losada is Dr. Historian, extraordinary prize laureate by the University of Barcelona, expert in Spanish military History.

The Spanish version is by far the more reliable and realistic version that I have rode so far, given the time of the battle, the development and the following consequences for the French king. Francis I falling just in front of the feet of a Nobleman, or a high officer during a battle in which around 45.000 men took part? The logic says that he fell among a bunch of simple arquebuisers, who killed his horse, and who faced their 15 minutes of fame. Why Spanish? because probably Francis I, who was a valiant man, being lost and desperate, attacked the core of the imperial army, which was invariabily formed always by Spanish arquebuisiers. And because Spanish sources from the time, and Spanish historians from nowadays say so.

Probably the problems that you have to find such names in the books you own, are a consequence of the ancient tendency to ignore or neglect whatever the remarkable and succesful aspect of the Spanish History, in the best tradition of the anglo-saxon historiography, rather than due the lack of historic accuracy. I also found myself in troubles when I tryied to find (in order to weight points of view) in anglo-saxon sources information about the Siege of Cartagena (the worst defeat in the History of the Royal Navy, 1741), the defeat of Nelson in the Canary Islands (where he lost his arm, 1797) or the Spanish raid in Cornwall in 1595. Sometimes, it is a little bit disappointing entering the english wikipedia to read articles related to the Spanish History. Músico July 10th 2007.

Another published source:

http://www.uflib.ufl.edu/spec/rarebook/cuba/pre1900.htm

University of Florida Rare Book Collection: CUBAN IMPRINTS PUBLISHED THROUGH 1900 IN THE RARE BOOK COLLECTION

BX815 .E87 1862

Author, etc.: Ferrer de Couto, Jose, 1820-1877. Title: Crisol historico espanol y restauracion de glorias nacionales / por Jose Gerrer de Couto. Published: Habana : Imprenta del Tiempo, 1862. Description: 210 p. : ill. ; 23 cm. Notes: Includes bibliographical references. Contents: Prologo-dedicatoria.--Proemio.--Resumen historico de las hermandades de Castilla, desde su origen hasta le epoca en que se extinguieron.--    .--Alonso Pita da Veiga en la batalla de Pavia.--. Subjects, general: Columbus, Christopher. Sanchez de Huelva, Alonso. Garay, Blasco de, 16th century. Pita da Veiga, Alonso. Indians of South America. Spain--History. Spain--Colonies--Administration. America--Discovery and exploration. Subjects, other: Imprint--Cuba--Havana--1862. Genre/form headings: Lithographs--Cuba--Havana--1812. Other author(s), etc.: Imprenta del Tiempo. DP72 .F38 1862 —Preceding unsigned comment added by PRESIDIOSOL98 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

An original copy of the above mentioned book, "Crisol historico espanol y restauracion de glorias nacionales", published in Havana, Cuba in 1862 by the Spanish historian Jose Ferrer de Couto, can be read as on Google Books.

It has an entire chapter entitled "ALONSO PITA DA VEIGA EN LA BATALLA DE PAVÍA" which, in large part, is dedicated to the verbatim text of a grant of a coat of arms to Alonso Pita da Veiga that was archived at the Archivo General de Simancas (General Archive of Simanca), signed by Emperor Charles the V on 24 July 1529, four years after the Battle of Pavia. I have pasted the entire text of the document below (it is, of course, in Spanish) but I will summarize its salient points in English:

After the usual formalities identifying Emperor Charles V, the document identifies " Alonso Pita da Veiga, Galician, and our vassal". "Galician" refers to Spanish the region of Galicia in northwest Spain. It goes on to say that Alonso Pita da Veiga served his majesty well in several battles including the Battle of Bicencio and the Battle of Vicoca.

In regards to the Battle of Pravia, the domument states that Alonso Pita da Veiga recaptured the standard "del Serenísimo Infante D. Fernando, que agora es Rey de Ungría, Nuestro muy caro y muy amado hijo y hermano" (" ... of His Most Serene Prince Don Fernando, who is now King of Hungary, Our most dear and loved son and brother"). This refers to Ferdinand, the brother of Charles V whose troops fought at Pravia. The author, Jose Ferrer de Couto, writes in the chapter that, before this document was found in the archives, it was not known that the standard had been temporarily lost when the flagbearer had been killed. The loss and subsequent recapture of the standard in the heat of battle, however, would have been a minor historical detail. For this action, Alonso Pita da Veiga was awarded 600 gold ducats.

The doucument then goes on to refer to the capture of King Francis I of France. It specifically states "y en la misma batalla ficistes tanto que allegastes á la misma persona del dicho Rey, y fuistes en prenderle, juntamente con las otras personas que le prendieron" ("and in the same battle, you accomplished so much that you reached the person of said King (Francis I of France) and captured him, JOINTLY WITH THE OTHER PERSONS THAT CAPTURED HIM.")  So, in effect, Charles V credited A GROUP of individuals, and not a single individual, with the capture of Francis I.  For that action, Alonso Pita da Veiga was awarded the sum of 30,0000 maravedís, for life, "above and beyond your pay as an 'hombre de arma'". "Hombre de arms" was a term used in that era to signify a mounted warrior as opposed to a foot soldier.

The document goes on to say that Alonso Pita da Veiga took from Francis I of France the following: " .... y vos le quitastes la manopla izquierda de su arnés y una banda de brocado que traia sobre las armas, con cuatro cruces de tela de plata y un crucifijo de la Veracruz, de lo cual el mismo Rey de Francia hizo fé y testimonio por una cédula firmada de su propia mano" (" and you took from him his left gauntlet and a brocade decorated with four crosses of silver cloth and a crucifix made of the True Cross, of which events the same King of France gave testimony in a document signed by his own hand.")

Alonso Pita da Veiga is then awarded a coat of arms described in the document that incorporates the different elements of his deeds: A royal crown, the fleur des lis of the King of France, a gauntlet, the design of the brocade and the design of the recaptured bannner.

The decree issued by Charles V on 24 July 1529 describing the actions of Alonso Pita da Veiga at the Battle of Pavia and the rather substantial monatary rewards given to Alonso Pita da Veiga for those actions are as "primary source" as you can get. The debate on this subject should therefore be closed.

Archivo general de Simancas, legajo 388, rotulado de "Mercedes y Privilegios."

"D. Cárlos por la divina clemencia Emperador siempre augusto, Rey de Alemania; doña Juana su madre, y el mismo D. Cárlos por la gracia de Dios, Beyes de Castilla, etc. Acatando los buenos y leales servicios que vos, Alonso Pita da Veiga, gallego, nuestro vasallo, nos habeis hecho en todas las guerras que se han ofrecido, nnsi en España como en Italia, donde os habeis hallado, especialmente en la batalla de Bicencio, que D. Roman de Cardona visorey y capitan general que fué del Católico Rey nuestro abuelo y Señor, que haya santa gloria, en el Nuestro reino de Nápoles dió contra Bartolo de Albiano, capitan general de venecianos, donde os hallastes y señalastes muy bien, y lo mismo en la batalla que Próspero Colona, que fué Nuestro capitan general de Italia, hubo en la Vicoca, con Mr. de Escur, capitan general del Rey de Francia y de su ejército; y ansi mismo en la que D. Cárlos, duque de Borbon, Nuestro capitan general que fué de Italia, y D. Cárlos de Lanoy, Nuestro visorey de Nápoles y D: Francisco Hernando Dávalos de Aquicio, marqués de Pescara, Nuestro capitán general de infantería, dieron en Gatinaraal ejército de franceses, de que era capitan general el Almirante de Francia, donde os hallastes y señalastes, como hombre de buen ánimo y esfuerzo, de todo lo cual soy informado y certificado por cartas de los dichos Nuestros capitanes generales de Italia, y de otras personas que de allá han venido: y demás dello nos consta y es claro y notorio que en la batalla sobre Pavía, que los dichos duque de Borbon y D. Cárlos de Lanoy y marqués de Pescara, hubieron con el Rey de Francia, donde le desbarataron y prendieron, vos, continuando vuestra lealtad y esfuerzo, y el deseo que teneis de nos servir, peleastes como valiente hombre, y cobrastes de poder de franceses el estandarte del Serenísimo Infante D. Fernando, que agora es Rey de Ungría, Nuestro muy caro y muy amado hijo y hermano, en el cual iba la insignia del Nuestro ducado de Borgoña, y lo tomaron los dichos franceses, habiendo muerto al alférez que lo traia, en prueba de la cual hazaña, os ficimos merced de seiscientos ducados de oro; y en la misma batalla ficistes tanto que allegastes á la misma persona del dicho Rey, y fuistes en prenderle, juntamente con las otras personas que le prendieron, y vos le quitastes la manopla izquierda de su arnés y una banda de brocado que traia sobre las armas, con cuatro cruces de tela de plata y un crucifijo de la Veracruz, de lo cual el mismo Rey de Francia hizo fé y testimonio por una cédula firmada de su propia mano, y Nos vos hicimos merced por ello de treinta mil maravedís cada año para toda vuestra vida, allende de vuestro salario ordinario de hombre de armas; en memoria de lo cual, y porque los Emperadores, y Reyes, y Príncipes, acostumbran honrar y hacer mercedes á los que bien les sirven, para que en sus linajes y sucesion quede de ellos perpétua memoria, y otros á ejemplo dellos se esfuerzen y animen á bien servir.

''Por la presente, de Nuestro propio motu y ciencia cierta y poderío Real absoluto, de que en esta parte queremos usar y usamos como Reyes y Señores naturales, es Nuestra merced y voluntad de os hacer merced, y conceder y dar por armas un escudo cuarteado, el campo del cuarto de encima colorado de color de sangre, y en él una manopla en señal de la que tomaste al dicho Rey de Francia, y una corona real de oro un poco más arriba de la dicha manopla; y del cuarto de abajo el campo azul con tres flores de lises de oro, que son las verdaderas armas de los Reyes de Francia; y el cuarto derecho tenga el campo colorado como el cuarto de arriba, y en él la banda subsodicha con sus cruces;-y el campo del cuarto siniestro así mismo colorado, y en él el dicho estandarte del Serenísimo Rey de Ungria con las armas dé Nuestro ducado de Borgofía, y timbrado dicho escudo segun y como y de la manera que va puesto y pintado aquí.

"Las cuales dichas armas vos damos y concedemos para vos, y para vuestros hijos y descendientes nacidos y por nacer, y sus descendientes de ellos perpétuamente para siempre jamás, para que las podais y puedan traer y poner por vuestras armas y suyas en vuestros reposteros y suyos, y en las otras partes donde las quisiereis y quisieren traer y poner libremente; sin que por ello ni por ninguna causa ni razon que sea ó ser pueda, vos sea ni pueda ser puesto embargo ni impedimento alguno á vos ni á los dichos vuestros hijos descendientes, y á los suyos perpétuamente para siempre jamás; y por esta Nuestra carta ó por su traslado signado de escribano público, mandamos al Ilustrísimo Príncipe D. Felipe, Nuestro muy caro y muy amado hijo y nieto, y á los Infantes, perlados, tiuques, marqueses, condes, ricos-homes, maestres de las órdenes, priores, comendadores, subcomendadores, alcaides de los castillos y casas fuertes y llanas, y á los del nuestro consejo* presidente, oidores de las nuestras audiencias, alcaldes, alguaciles de la nuestra casa y corte y cnancillerías, y á todos los concejos, y á sus tenientes, gobernadores, merinos prebostes, y otras cualesquier nuestras justicias y jueces destos reinos y señorios, y á cada uno y cualquier dellos en sus lugares é jurisdicciones, que vos dejen y consientan á vos, y á los dichos vuestros hijos nascidos y por nascer, y á sus descendientes para siempre jamás, traer y tener y poner por vuestras armas las subsodichas, segun como dicho es; y que en ello ni en parte dello embargo ni contrario alguno vos no pongan ni consientan poner; y vos guarden y cumplan esta dicha Nuestra carta y la merced en ella contenida; y contra ella ni contra cosa alguna ni parte de ella no vayan ni pasen, ni consientan ir ni pasar en tiempo alguno ni por alguna manera, sopeña de la Nuestra merced y de diez mil maravedís para Nuestra cámara á cada uno que lo contrario hiciere; é demás mandamos al home que les esta Nuestra carta mostrare, que les emplace que parezcan ante Nos en la Nuestra corte del dia para que los emplazaren fasta quince dias primeros siguientes, so la dicha pena; so la que mandamos á cualquier escribano público, que para esto fuere llamado, que dé ende al que se la mostrare testimonio signado, con su signo, porque Nos sepamos como Nuestro mandado se cumple.—Dado en Barcelona á 24 de julio, año del nacimiento de Nuestro Señor y Salvador Jesucristo de 1529 años.—Yo el Rey.—Yo Pedro de Casasola, secretario de Sus Cesáreas y Católicas Majestades, la fice escribir por su mandado.—Idiaquez." PRESIDIOSOL98 (talk) 01:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

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