Talk:Alpha Phi Alpha/Archive 2

Paper Bag Test
You guys are probably smarter than me, I just can't figure this out: If this fraternity was founded to help black people (African Americans if you wish), then why would they have a test forbidding entry to anyone with a skin darker than a brown paper bag? Because I don't know what sorts of bags you guys see usually, but if I look at mine. I'd probably fail the test after a few days at the beach. Explanations?

J. Cromwell --84.176.90.89 19:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The supposed test grew out of a reactionary internal racism that exisited in black society for many years. Some say it is still out there.  Basically, the closer to white you were, then supposedly you stood higher in "class".  A darker skinned person was considered to be closer to the negative stereotypes that were in the popular culture thana light skinned person.  There was even a Hudie Leadbetter (Leadbelly) song lyric about the attitude, "If you're brown, stick around, if you're black, get back, get back, get back,"

-- Bill 19:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The "paper bag test" was used by certain chapters, and there is no record that this was encouraged or condoned by the national organizationm. These chapters did not invent colorism, however; they used personal, cultural and regional criteria in accepting inititates.  This form of racism is probably not something the chapters are proud of today, but it was a part of the their history and therefore part of Alpha's hisotry.   A careful review of members throughout the 100 year history of the organization will show that there are members of every hue in the human race, therefore; not all chapters employed the "paper bag test".   Ccson 04:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

the howard chapter used the paper bag test. 64.131.205.160 19:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The alleged "paper bag test" within the Beta Chapter of Alpha Phi Alpha at Howard University is an urban legend promulgated by members of competing fraternities. It is easily disproved by viewing pictures from the chapter's history (showing varied hues of African-American men from very dark to very light), easily available, among other places, at Howard University's Library. The "paper bag test" is often orally cited by other fraternities as a reason for their respective founding, with the "test" often used as rationale or excuse for their own founders supposedly not gaining acceptance into Alpha. The claim has been found dubious even by the historians of other fraternities, who have never thought to include such claims in their history books. The main page speaks to Thurgood Marshall's observation of "the test;"  Marshall was not an undergraduate member of Beta Chapter at Howard University which is what some here seem to assume.

please look at the reference provided on the main page number 44 and what is written on the main page. thank you.

"In the selection of candidates for membership, certain chapters had not escaped challenges of racial stereotyping and allegations of colorism. In a biography of Justice Thurgood Marshall, the authors recounted how certain chapters of the fraternity used a "brown paper bag test" and would not consider students whose skin color was darker than the bag.[44] Former General President Belford Lawson, Jr. lamented this attitude and condemned initiation practices of snobbery and exclusivity, and said "Jesus Christ could not make Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity today; they would blackball Him because He was not hot enough".[45]"

64.131.205.160 02:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

And please read what was actually said, in responding to "the howard chapter used the paper bag test." thank YOU.

Even if someone isn't a member of a certain chapter doesn't mean they didnt witness it! Thurgood Marshall was a member of Alpha Phi Alpha and I doubt would brng bad light to their name if it were unncessary! NinjaNubian 18:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Straw horse argument, ninja. Indeed, Marshall (and others) saw an ill that was sadly indicative of Black Fraternities and Universities during that time period, and indeed, Alpha (and other fraternities) addressed that wrong, rather than run from it. What was addressed was the false claim that "the howard chapter used the paper bag test." I have a feeling you already knew that, though.

NinjaNubian/MyKungFu, I thougt you were a member of Alpha Phi Alpha as you had posted the APA userbox on your user page. You seem to have an unsatiable desire to bring a bad light to the name of Alpha Phi Alpha. What's up with that? Ccson 15:45, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Marion Barry
Is a famous alpha, why is it being removed or questioned? 64.131.205.160 04:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Pledging and Hazing
Already approved to have it inserted. Look above 64.131.205.160 04:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Prototype
Proposed removal of prototype. Iota Phi Theta wasn't founded at howard, neither was Kappa Alpha Psi, Sigma Gamma Rho. Who is to say that the howard chapter was the prototype. Is there any documentation behind this?

Beginning in 1908, the Howard chapter became the prototype for six of the remaining eight National Pan-Hellenic Council members, a predominantly African-American fraternal council

NinjaNubian 04:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * the six would be the five founded at Howard University and Kappa Alpha Psi, in which 2 of their founders were students at Howard before tranferring to Indiana, plus they had some involvement with Alpha Phi Alpha while students at Howard. Ccson 20:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Where does it state that Alpha Phi Alpha was the prototype organization? If a statement like that is made, i simply want a reference inserted. Especially stating that one chapter was the prototype for other organizations both for men and women. Is there any neutral source that states two of KAY founders were in fact involved with A PHI A. Alpha sources may state yes, but KAY sources simply state that it is based from Alpha Kappa Nu. Neutral meaning not from a noted Alpha i.e. Skip Mason, or a noted Kappa.. Johnny Cochran. NinjaNubian 07:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The article referenced by Mr. Mason indicates where his sources are regarding the 2 kappa founders and their tenure at Howard University. You can start by reading the History of Kappa Alpha Psi. Ccson 02:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I have the book, and according to the book their fraternity is based off of alpha kappa nu. Also just because something is the first, doesn't make it the prototype. I move for a rewording and the erasure of the word prototype. That word in itself is original research. Why? well Alpha Phi Alpha used the paper bag test at howard. Phi Beta Sigma accepted members regardless of their complexion. They are also founded for different reasons. If alpha phi alpha were the prototype of phi beta sigma, phi beta sigma would have similiar founding ideals. You might has well state that Sigma Alpha Mu or Tau Kappa Epsilon are prototypes for Alpha Phi Alpha. NinjaNubian 04:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The book is biased and that's the point of Mr. Mason's article that is referenced. According to Mr. Mason, the Kappa history book states two members were involved with another fraternity while students at Howard University.  What other fratenity could they be affiliated with between 1907 and 1911, but Alpha Phi Alpha?  Also, AKA founder Ethel Hedgeman Lyle has stated she started AKA as a direct result of her boyfriend Mr. Lyle who was a charter member of the Alpha's Beta chapter at howard, so Alpha was the prototype for a sorority.  If you read the History section of the article, you will see that the founders wanted to establish a fraternity similar to the white fraternities, but they did not make mention of any specific organization.  Ccson 04:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Why even mention the book if you are later goign to say it is biased? Skip Mason is biased as well, he is a member of Alpha Phi Alpha. What other fraternity could they have be affiliated with? Sigma Pi Phi or even Mason's. If there is nothing documented, I propose to remove the wording by saturday 8th unless documented proof can be made. You can state though that Alpha Phi Alpha has been said to be the prototype for Alpha Kappa Alpha, but a reference is needed. All others must have concrete documentation. NinjaNubian 05:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Alpha was charted on Howard in 1907. There is no record of Sigma Pi Phi or the Masons as a charted group at Howard in between 1907-1911, or even in 2006. I mentioned the book because you asked for a source that would confirm that 2 Kappa founders were affiliated with Alpha while at Howard; I guess you discovered the sentence in the Kappa book which states 2 members did attend howard, and of course, being the great hisorian of black fraternities, you know that it could only have been Alpha Phi Alpha since Omega Psi Phi, although founded at Howard, Omega was founded after Kappa was, just as the kappas know, but refuse to print that in their history book.  I can understand why they would not, but this is an encylopedia with must present a Neutral and Unbiased Point of View.  Ccson 05:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright alpha was charted in 1907. Who is to say that they are the only fraternity that existed on the campus on during that time. if something can be pointed that it was alpha phi alpha was the prototype specifically then we'll move on. if not remove the word prototype. with phi beta sigma, it is a fact that alpha phi alpha wasn't the prototype for them.. the ideals are totally in oposition (one organization descrimanted based on complexian and the other didn't). thus alpha phi alpha was not the prototype for them. unbiased point of view you are correct. the sentence is biased, and thus should be removed. saturday september 9th is the deadline. thank you. NinjaNubian 05:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Honorary
It is important to note if membership was instilled based on distinction or based on intake

NinjaNubian 04:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It should also be noted that men can no longer be admitted into the fraternity as "honorary". This type of membership ended decades ago and can be found in the fraternity's official history volumes.

adisalee

can you provide a reference to this? decades ago? dates? NinjaNubian 07:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if honorary memberships are no longer extended, but it's a matter of opinion whether it needs to be pointed out for every person listed. Each member honorary or not has the same privelges within the organization. Ccson 20:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

when an individual is inducted after his death without his consent. i.e. Frederick Douglas. Then it must be duly noted. I believe it is also important to note the types of memberships that exist and how someone became a member if you're going to start quoting individual accomplisments. NinjaNubian 07:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Frederick Douglass membership was approved by the Frederick Douglass Historical and Memorial Society and the society accpeted the shingle on behalf of Mr. Douglass. Think of it as the children of MLK Jr have the rights to accept whatever they want in the names of their father or mother, and the parents left wills attesting to this fact. Also, you may believe what you want, but that doesn't make it so.  Ccson 04:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

it is important to state that Alpha Phi Alpha is an intercollegiate fraternity, possibly it would also be important to note that it accepts members who have never attended college, but have lifelong achievement such as Frederick Douglas and Duke Ellington. Also isn't lionel richie an honorary member? NinjaNubian 16:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC) My request was that it be noted that honoray membership is no longer a form of membership within Alpha Phi Alpha. I have not stated anything nor debating anything other than such. It ceased to exist decades ago and the national website lists two types of memebrship status for brothers and aspirants: Alumni and College. The history and accomplishments of honoray members is a part of the fraternity's history and should be noted. I'm just asking that it be noted that honorary membership exists no more. I fail to see what's hard to comprehend about this suggestion.

adisalee

Alright, where is the link to support this? Where does it state that Alpha Phi Alpha no longer grants membership on an honorary basis? Along with the fact that there were previously individuals who were honorary, should be a statement assuming what you say is true that Alpha Phi Alpha no longer grants membership on an honorary basis. 150.210.226.5 21:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I smell a couple of frauds. adisalee

Where is the page for alpha phi alpha that states the types of membership. I need to link this page as the source for the info. Rather than assuming honorary is no longer granted, I'll indicate the types of membership granted and this can verified by anyone who links to the referenced page. 67.34.214.186 16:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The national website is off-line, but the info in the links I provided are are cut, copied, and pasted from it. This info is available to the public.

http://www.iotapsilambda.org/tausigma/membershiptypes.aspx http://www.iotapsilambda.org/tausigma/membershipprocess.aspx

These are the only two ways in which men may be admitted into the fraternity. I'm not deducing (or "assuming", as its been suggested) this info to mean that honorary membership does not exist anymore. IT IS A FACT! Admittance into Alpha Phi Alpha as an honoray member is no longer accepted and you may contact national headquarters or any other chapter (including the chapter to the links I provided) and they will inform you of the same.

adisalee

No one, at least not me, that what you say is not correct. However; an encyclopedia must have referenced information. You indicated above and I quote This type of membership ended decades ago and can be found in the fraternity's official history volumes. I just asked for the book, chapter and page where this can be found so I can insert the appropriate reference. If I say the color of the rainbow contain red, blue and green, a true statement, but this doesn't mean the other 4 color are no longer valid. An encyclopedia cannot infer, but only state what its source says. Although you may know this to be true, that's considered "orignial research" and not a fact. If the fraternity no longer allows honorary membership, this decision had to be made at a national convention and probably the reason for the decison. I will look at the links you provided, however; can you provide some documentation where the "honorary" status is directly spoken about? BTW-when you want to sign your name, you type 4 "tildes"; this the key to the left of the number 1, key, you must use the shift and tildes, four times as such Ccson 02:53, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. And I stand corrected about the history volumes. Honorary membership still existed during the recording of the history contained in the volumes. To my knowledge their exists no document available to the public that "clearly and plainly" states that Alpha no longer permits honorary members. Therefore, I understand that's its easy to assume otherwise and also that the abolishment of honorary membership will be difficult to include in this article without "hard" evidence. The only available source is to contact headqurters or a local chapter for clarification about the membership process, as I've already advised, and hear it from the "sphinxes" mouth. No harm done. But for your enjoyment, here's an old thread I found on a message board while searching for a more acceptable form of proof. This is not a realiable source either! It's basically everything (almost) you wanted to know about honorary membership in BGLO's, but was afraid to ask...and its quite hilarious at times!! http://www.stophazing.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000738

adisalee
 * when the national site is available for preview, I will get the membership statement and and add it to the article. Readers will have to infer until a valid referenceable source regarding honorary status can be located. Ccson 14:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Internal Racism & Prejudice
The paper bag test was moved, modified and expanded into internal racism.

NinjaNubian 04:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

any protests? if not i move to go ahead and do this by next thursday. sept 7th. NinjaNubian 04:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

"OJBECT, internal would be within the membership and there's no record of that. Certain chapters used Colorism in accpeting candidates for membership, that would be external, and discussed in detail in the colorism article.  BTW-that why they allow links to topics which demand more detail, so an article doesn't become lenghty.  Unless there's something that Alpha did that's not covered in the colorism article, there's no need to elaborate because there's nothing new here. Ccson 04:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I move to create a section known as Colorism and Prejudice. Certain chapters? It was used by what is quoted in the article as being the prototype chapter of Alpha phi Alpha, the howard chapter. This article isn't lengthy. There could be a few revisions in other sections that due seem to drag on though. NinjaNubian 05:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

There's already an article in wikipedia on Colorism and Prejudice.

There is also an article on Paul Robeson, but in the main article it speaks of his letter

"In 1946, fraternity brother Paul Robeson, in a Letter to the editor, published in The New York Times, referring to apartheid and South Africa's impending request to annex South-West Africa, a League of Nations mandate, appeals

to my fellow Americans to make known their protest against such conditions to the South African Ministry in Washington; to send to the Council on African Affairs, an expression of support for these grievously oppressed workers in South Africa; to keep the South African situation in mind against the time when General Smuts will come to the United Nations Assembly to demand the annexation of South West Africa, which means more Africans for him to exploit.[25] "

If you're going to start quoting individual accomplisments of members. Then something that directly correlated with Alpha history shoudl be included. Internal Racism within the organization must not be ignored! Move to expand to a section of internal racism, and delete the quorte of Paul Robeson. Being that it is his own accomplisment and not the direct result of Alpha Phi Alpha's. NinjaNubian 05:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * that text is included to show the result of Mr. Robeson being rewarded the "Alpha Medallion". Ccson 14:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Pledging and Hazing
Pleding was expanded to pledging and hazing. They are very different things. The Cornell chapter which is noted quite a few times in the first few paragraphs, should be noted to have been suspened and the basis of the suspension.

http://www.subboard.com/generation/articles/98510489992159.asp

It must also be noted that membership rests with the chapter as well and not just the intake officer.

NinjaNubian 04:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Please visit the Alpha Phi Alpha website or follow the footnote link where this information was derived. If it rest with the chapter, provide some reliable source, remember what dystopos told you
 * "Reminder: personal knowledge is original research. Citing sources may help maintain a neutral and verifiable article. --Dystopos 17:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)"

the website doesn't work anymore. i can provide a photocopy of the membership application. would that be enough to prove that this isn't original knowledge? NinjaNubian 04:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What will that prove? Ccson 05:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

that although intake is done nationally, membership is still ultimately rest on the result of a chapter vote. which is what should be included on the main article. NinjaNubian 05:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * a candidate may be selected by the local chapter for membership, howver; the process of becoming a member is implemented by a national intake officer, and that's what's discussed in the article. Ccson 05:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pledging&x=0&y=0

a person accepted for membership in a club, fraternity, or sorority, but not yet formally approved.

hazing

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hazing&x=0&y=0

To persecute or harass with meaningless, difficult, or humiliating tasks. To initiate, as into a college fraternity, by exacting humiliating performances from or playing rough practical jokes upon.

That is why i stated that pledging and hazing are different things. I feel that they should be separate sections. I don't feel that a hazing incident should be held within a pledging section. Move to separate? NinjaNubian 07:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * hazing occurs during the pledge process, plus there is a link for the hazing article is anyone wants to know the down and low details of what hazing involves. To elaborate in this article would have to show some form of hazing that only this organization invented or only used by this organization.  Ccson 02:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

what link is this? hazing may occur but during a pledge process, but is mutually exclusive to the pledge process. one doesn't require the other. the hyponatremia incident in texas was exclusive to alpha phi alpha, as is the paper bag test that was used. NinjaNubian 04:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * JAZZ, hazing only occurred during the pledge process. Once a member, the other members do not haze one another; that's in any organzation. Click on hazing,and I think the link in Alpha Phi Alpha is the first 2nd or 3rd paragraph. Ccson 04:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

hazing occurs prior to membership, as well as prior to pledging in what is known as pre pledging. thus it can be listed in it's own section. NinjaNubian 05:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * hazing occured during the pledge process, which was the vehicle to membership, however; its not important whether pre-pledge or pledge, the types of hazing are the same, objected to by the fraternity, and no longer allowed. There's nothing new here.  Ccson 05:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

you'r simply rambling on without providing any evidence. first you state it occurs only during pledging, and then as a vehicle towards membership. the types of hazing are the same? what types are there? Hyponathremia is exclusively used by Alpha Phi Alpha as is documented that it is the only case of hazing you using this. As stated earlier, pledging as the main topic, hazing as a sub topic, internal racism as a sub topic, and the paper bag test as smaller sub topic. If any strong evidence can be provided we will continue. If not i move to include it by thursday septemeber 7th. NinjaNubian 18:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know what Hyponoathremia is, but I'm sure the fraternity did not invent this. Ccson

in terms of hazing they are! the first documented fraternity to utilize this technique! If any strong evidence can be provided we will continue. If not i move to include it by thursday septemeber 7th. NinjaNubian 05:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Page Protection
Thank goodness that the article is protected. I am tired of people who simply do not have anything to do with their lives mess up a featured article about a 100 year-old African-American organization, which withstanded the test of time. Bearly541 05:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

100 year isn't really the test of time, but as is the nature of wikipedia, a user driven encyclopedia, information is constantly being added. NinjaNubian 06:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

What Bearly is referring to is the "need" of some people to continuously try to discredit this organization by posting "tidbit" half-truths as relevant info about the history, success, aims, and significance of Alpha Phi Alpha. If one didn't know anything about Black culture in general and read the garbage that people try to place in this article you would be led to believe that only Alpha Phi Alpha has dealt with classism, elitism, internal racism/paperbag tests (an early practice of Historical Black Colleges and Universitites, not just APHIA or fraternities), pledging/hazing, and other "scandals". Don't believe what I'm saying? Just view the information and the discussions about the other NPHC organizations. Nobody's been offering up "facts" about their hazing incidents and deaths, financial scandals, internal "isms", etc. For a plethora of reasons, APHIA garners a lot of attention and good old fashion playa hating! adisalee

Paper bag test is already stated in the article, but it is part of a greater topic of internal racism. Other "black" fraternities were founded based on the fact tht they didn't judge members based upon things like classism, elitism, or paper bg tests such as Phi Beta Sigma,  which states that  "each potential member should be judged on his own merits rather than his family background or affluence, without regard for race, nationality, color of skin, or texture of hair"  The hazing incidents were mentioned in the other pages, but as is done here, they are erased. Why not give the opportunity to realize that history is history. It isn't what the present organization is, but why deny it? The organization is greater than that! NinjaNubian 07:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * the fact that Alpha was orginally limited to any "Negro Male" student is discussed in the Expansion and Consolidation section of the article. The decision to open membership to all races and the reason for this decision and when the organization became interracial is also discussed in the History 1919-1949 section.  Ccson 03:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

alright, so it's been inter racial since 1945 or so. the united states made slavery illegal since 1869. that doesnt take away from the fact that it existed. internal racism in alpha phi alpha is well documented and referenced in it's history. i strongly move for an internal racism portion for this article unless confounding evidence can show why it didn't or isn't noteworthy. NinjaNubian 04:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * there nothing to say, once a member, members were not discrimated against because of skin color.  The fraternity used Colorism, (discussed in article) in accepting member.  This is external racism and that's the point of the Colorism article,  Again, this wasn't invented by Alpha and they weren't the last to employ it. Ccson 04:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

individuals couldn't become members based on the color of their skin. a fraternity founded by blacks that based membership based on color is an internal racism (racism within a race). please document proof of the paper bag test amongst other fraternities or the last known documented case. besides that, you aren't giving any confounding evidence. NinjaNubian 05:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * the fraternity's constitution stated that membership was open to any negro male. Cetain chapters exhibited elite selection, which is mentioned, but that's never been the agenda of the national organization. Ccson 05:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

pledging is barred by the fraternity constitution, but it still occurs. certain chapters, it seems that all chapters used this, unless otherwised stated. going by this i propose to remove the ape as a symbol of the fraternity since it isn't stated in the national webstie as being a symbol. NinjaNubian 05:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You can't assume something and personal knowledge is not original research. Of courese, it's not possible that one person would personal knowledge of the pledging progam in over 700 chapters.  Where is pledging still occuring within the fraternity?  this would be illegal and the persons involved would not be considered members by the national office.  The membership intake policy is stated on the Alpha national website and on many chapter website, plus its become common knowledge that pledging no longer exists.  Any individual who engages in this pledge process knows, or should know that it's all for nothing. Ccson 14:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Personal knowledge or primary/first hand knowledge by Wiki Standards cannot be included. Don't you state that hazing occurs within pledging? If so.. there have been many cases of hazing since 1988. Well documented as can be seen by. www.anti-hazing.com It is very possible that one could have personal knowledge of 700 chapters. That is being very naive. Membership intake states a no pledging/no hazing policy, but both still very much occur as can be seen by the website. I move to include pledging and hazing as 2 separate topics on the main page or pledging as one topic, hazing as a sub topic and internal racism as another subtopic. Unless you can provide real strong evidence as to why it shouldn't be included. Asking a question isn't providing evidence. Thursday september 7th is the deadline. NinjaNubian 18:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Removal of Ape as a symbol
Since it isn't stated in the national website. If other information stated by the national website can challenge this we should keep it. Just because one chapter or a few chapters use it as a mascot doesn't mean it represents the fraternity as a whole. NinjaNubian 18:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

If you were in fact an Alpha, you would know that that Ape is used by all chapters. 67.34.214.186 00:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

documented proof please? if not it shall be removed. saturday september 7th. i don't see this listed on the national website. NinjaNubian 05:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Famous Alpha's
I propose to add to the list of famous alpha's vaughn lowery

http://myspace.com/vaughnlowery

if you don't know who he is

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5RgG7p9oW18

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dG3VURwMxPA

i move to add him by sunday unless there are any protests. NinjaNubian 17:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * the article cannot contain all names of Alpha men, famous or not. There's an category for alpha phi alpha brothers, in which any member who has an article can be posted to this category.  In fact, there are over 100 names in the category so far, but all names don't appear in the article.  One because it's not necessary, and two this would make the article longer than it is now.  67.34.214.186 16:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

to add 2 words isn't going to unnecessarily lengthen the article. there are many members who weren't elaborated upon. he is the most famous young alpha in present day. also i propose to add marion barry the former mayor of washington dc since andrew young and Maynard Jackson is included; being that they all have the same accomplisments NinjaNubian 04:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As famous as he may be, i have never heard of him. What is his accomplishment of fame that would mesh with the goals and ideas of this orgnaization. Is there a page in wikipedia for the famous individual?  I agree that all members may be worthy of listing 2 words of their name, but there are almost 200,000 members.  Ccson 04:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

he is the man in the joe boxer commercial. he has appeared on jay leno, oprah winfrey show, wall street journal, inside edition and more. http://www.aboutvaughn.com/video.html. past that i move to add marion barry. any protests? if not by thursday they will be added. NinjaNubian 05:16, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * being on talk shows does't make you famous. what has he done that embodies the goals of this organization.  You can't just print his name, what has he done other than dance around in christmas box with boxer on? Ccson 05:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

model and actor. world famous entertainer. have you looked at his website? his accomplishments are many. NinjaNubian 06:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm asking you to enumerate his many accomplishments and why these accomplishments warrant his name from the almost 200,000 names to appear in the article. Ccson 14:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

appeared on the wall street journal, american's next top model, the tonight show, the superbowl, old navy. it's like saying what are jim carreys accomplisments. as an entertainer it's going by a different set of standards. what are jessie owen's accomplishments other than run a few track events? move to include in article NinjaNubian 18:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Jesse Owens was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1976 by Gerald Ford and (posthumously) the Congressional Gold Medal by George H. W. Bush on March 28, 1990. In 1984, a street in Berlin was renamed for him and the Jesse Owens Realschule/Oberschule (a secondary school) is in Berlin-Lichtenberg.Ccson 04:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, I have never heard of Mr. Lowery and have no objection to his success, but good looks is not really a talent, and your comparison to Jim Carey is like comparing Apples to Oranges. Ccson 04:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

good looks is a trait like race is a trait. fast leg speed is a trait. Mr Lowery is also renown dancer, as can be seen by his nationally successful commercial appeal. I have started a page on Mr Lowery on this site, and move for his inclusion. Unless compelling reason can show why he shouldn't be a member of the main page. 64.131.205.160 04:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't agree that looks is a trait, but I know its not a talent. You still haven't given a compelling reason what this person has done that embodies Alpha, mainly First of All, Servants of All, We Shall Transcend All, or Manly Deeds, Scholarship and Love for All Mankind.  Also, you haven't provided documented proof that he is an Alpha. Ccson

his myspace page shows that he is a member of alpha phi alpha. he went to college at cornell. you can provide proof that he isn't an alpha, but thus far it is accepted that he is. past that, he is the first alpha to appear on the tonight show, be on america's next top model, and be a supermodel. thus, proof. thank you, inclusion by thur sept 7th. NinjaNubian 05:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I move to insert marion barry into the main article by thursday unless there are any major protests. NinjaNubian 06:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

there seems to be not eevn a minor protest about the inclusion of mayor marion barry into the main article. thursday sept 7th he will be inserted. NinjaNubian 18:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Sentence concerning civil rights removal
I vote to remove this sentence. "Alpha men were pioneers and at the forefront of the civil rights struggle." It is innately false. Pioneer would suggest that Alpha men were the first to bring about the civil rights movement. Vernon John's who isn't a members of Alpha Phi Alpha is known as the father of the civil right movement. Marcus Garvey is also a pioneer of the civil rights movement, but wasn't a member of Alpha Phi Alpha. Please bring about strong supporting evidence by saturday september 9th or this sentence shall be removed. NinjaNubian 18:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * In your opinion! Ccson 04:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

in your opinion isn't strong supporting evidence.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pioneer pioneer - 1. a person who is among those who first enter or settle a region, thus opening it for occupation and development by others. 2. one who is first or among the earliest in any field of inquiry, enterprise, or progress: pioneers in cancer research.

since alpha men were not pioneers i move to remove the sentence by saturday september 9th. 64.131.205.160 04:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * the defintion you supplied indicates one does not have to be first, just "among the earliest". thanks you for proving that Alpha is indeed a Pioneer in the civil rights movement as well as other movements affecting people of color and the world. 67.34.214.186 00:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

vernon johns is considered to be the father of the civil right movement. He started it in the 1920's, which was 30 years prior to any alpha doing it. it ended around 1964 with the signing of the civil rights act. thus.... alpha phi alpha was near the midpoint to the end of the civil right movement and thus the sentence should be removed by september 9th. a pioneer worldwide? no documented proof.. so that i won't even respond to it. NinjaNubian 05:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

rewording pioneer since no viable argument has been brought up. NinjaNubian 18:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

NinjaNubian
I do not think Ninja Nubian is a real Alpha. Thus, his/her suggestions should be taken as a grain of salt, since he/she was once banned before. The name SCREAMS "perp." Bearly541 17:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

i think bearly541 is a skater, and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. now lets stop with the personal attacks and get back on real issues. NinjaNubian 05:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I wonder what "real" issues is this person talking about, since he vandalized the page several times before. Oh, I better stop with my antics, because it is foolish to argue with a ... .  Bearly541 20:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Swiftly
The sentence of " The fraternity later to a second chapter was chartered at Howard University in 1907. " has been replaced with "The fraternity swiftly expanded when a second chapter was chartered at Howard University in 1907."

The use of the word swift takes away from an NPOV.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=swiftly

CCson, i'd like to know why revising a word from swiftly to later on is in your point of view considered to be vandalism. please resond by saturday septmeber 9th 2006 with a concrete answer by or else "later on" will be used in the sentence. NinjaNubian 14:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I addressed in when you asked the very same question in the Civil Rights section above. I will print your statement and my resonse here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pioneer

pioneer - 1. a person who is among those who first enter or settle a region, thus opening it for occupation and development by others. 2. one who is first or among the earliest in any field of inquiry, enterprise, or progress: pioneers in cancer research.

since alpha men were not pioneers i move to remove the sentence by saturday september 9th. 64.131.205.160 04:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * the defintion you supplied indicates one does not have to be first, just "among the earliest". thanks you for proving that Alpha is indeed a Pioneer in the civil rights movement as well as other movements affecting people of color and the world. 67.34.214.186 00:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Plus, this sentence has been here during the peer review and Featured Article candidate review. No one has objected to this.  Please move on to something else.  Ccson 03:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

well one has been brought up! I think it's a better and helps to maintain a NPOV to use another word. NinjaNubian 18:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Alpha Phi Alpha Founders
I am reprinting a msg left on my talk page by user NinjaNubian so that it can be disussed here. All changes have to done so that it doesn't affect the Featured Article status, since the article is periodically reviewed.
 * I think maybe we should shorten the intro and not name the founders... simply state in some form or mannter that the founders are referred to as the Jewels. We should then have a section called the Founders.. where we give the names and profession of the founders as well as the precurers such as CC Point Dexter.. agreed?  NinjaNubian 20:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't have a problem removing the list from the intro, however; if you remove the seven names from the intro to shorten, and add a whole section about the founders with pictures, that will only inrease the size of the article, which is not a good thing. Each founder has his own wikipedia page, and a link is provided in the article for anyone who wants to delve futher into the lives of each founder and their respective roles in the fraternity.  The category  category:Alpha Phi Alpha founders contains pictures of the founders and links to their articles.  The category is linked in the main article; I will add if it's not.  I suggest that you expand the indivdual pages of the founders.  I'm sure you've noticed when you edit the entire aticle that it is almost twice the size as normal.
 * I don't think C.C. Poindexter should be included as a founder because he objected to the idea of a "fraternity" and therefore cannot be a founder. If you want his name listed, it should be listed as one of the main persons within the literary club who objected to becoming a fraternity.  The history book is clear that he [Poindexter]  had no role and wanted nothing to do with becoming a fraternity, and was not a part of the group that organized on December 4, 1906.   Ccson 03:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, if you want to shorten the intro, stop adding names to the fourth paragraph. You added three and now want to shorten by removing the most important seven. Ccson 03:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

We could simply delete Andrew Young and the other Atlanta mayor who were listed. A mayor of the nations capital as well as the largest city in the United States are far more important in my opinion then two mayors of a minor, not even top 10 in terms of population of the united states.NinjaNubian 18:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

CC Pointdexter as i stated isn't a founder of the Fraternity but was a key member of the society that preceeded alpha phi alpha. If you look above I said precurser. The United States of America was founded in 1776, but has almost 200 years of history prior to this! It is important to speak of the history of alpha phi alpha in it's infancy stages! NinjaNubian 18:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

In terms of a Founder section, a picture isn't necessary, but immediately after founding, we add a small section, about a paragraph, essentially a move and small expansion that is in the intro section. opinion? NinjaNubian 18:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Stop this edit war
This edit war has gone on long enough. Please discuss your problems here, assume good faith, do not throw vandalism templates on each other's user talk pages, be civil. And remember you don't own this article. Errabee 16:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * BTW, I placed this page on WP:RfC. Errabee 16:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Errabee, To assume good faith, you would have to ignore the fact that one person has made it his business to vandalize the Alpha Phi Alpha entry. If you check the history of wiki entry for Kappa Alpha Psi, you'll see that even NinjaNubian's attempts rewrite their page in the most glowing terms possible are unwelcome. For the benefit of all (especially with a RfC), the history pages of Kappa Alpha Psi, Sigma Pi Phi, and Alpha Phi Alpha. Oh yes, and the website for former Alpha Historian and author, Rev. H. Mason, through which he may be contacted via email. The historian for Kappa Alpha Psi is Dr. Ralph J. Bryson, and he may be contacted through their respective website as may Sigma Pi Phi Historian William H. Harris through theirs. 64.241.29.196 19:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC) *sigh* Are you guys at it again? Didn't you learn anything? Let the article be stable, and discuss your changes here. Also, slapping each other with vandalism warning templates isn't going to do much good, is it? That'll only make things worse. Errabee 16:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The only way to stop this edit war is to PERMANENTLY protect the article. Possible changes will be discussed here, and it will be up to the creator of the page to make the final decision.  Bearly541 02:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Your assumption the creator of the page gets to make the final decision is incorrect, because nobody owns an article, not even the creator. Now I don't know anything about American fraternities (nor do I want to, especially after watching this mess unfold), but as I see it, everyone involved could have invoked dispute resolvement at any time by posting a RfC (which I now did in your places). Since each and everyone of you didn't do this but kept on edit warring, you are all responsible for creating this mess. Errabee 03:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I Got A Feeling
In checking with Ccson,  Bearly541 , and KaneKing93 talk pages over the weekend,  We are having a problem with  Mykungfu, formerly  NinjaNubian vandalizing both Alpha Phi Alpha and Kappa Alpha Psi web pages. KaneKing93 and Bearly541 said they are members of Kappa Alpha Psi and Ccson already confirmed membership with Alpha Phi Alpha. Mykungfu is causing this edit war trying to "perpetrate" both fraternities. I suggest we need to block him out of vandalizing these articles and any other article of NPHC organizations. Erayman64

Request for Comment: Alpha Phi Alpha, Pioneers of American Civil Rights Movement
There is some dispute as to whether members of Alpha Phi Alpha were pioneers in the Civils rigths movement begun in 1955.

There is a sentence in the article "Alpha men were pioneers and at the forefront of the civil rights struggle.". User NinjaNubian is disputing that members were not pioneers, but had key roles. I provided the reference for the sentence  where the Howard University PBS website states The history of these men is the history of America, and their place in the vanguard of the Civil Rights struggle is unparalleled. It's clear to anyone that Martin Luther King Jr., Thurgood Marshall and Andrew Young were vanguard and at the forefront, and not just key players in the civil rights movement. Plus, Alpha members were at the head of the NAACP, SCLC and the NUL. The website NinjaNubian supplies as his reference is a biased site against "hazing", but even if it's not biased, why does it contain text about a fraternity claiming to have members as pioneers. I belive that this text was written just to directly address the sentence in the article since no where else on the web does Alpha claim to have been pioneers. The adjective Pioneer was chosen for this article in place of word "Vanguard" which appeared in the reference. He has created his own statement on a biased website and using those statements as proof of his own opinion. What names come to mind when the world thinks of leaders of the African-American Civil Rights Movement (1955-1968)? unsigned comment by Ccson

Vernon John's Father of the civil rights movement

the father of the civil rights movement is vernon john's.  he is the pioneer of the movement, starting it in 1920. http://www.vernonjohns.org/tcal001/vjcrtstr.html. Vernon John's was not a member of Alpha Phi Alpha. NinjaNubian 17:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"Father" would signify a singular role, the sentence in question says Alpha Men, plural, and there can be many who are pioneers, and this isn't limited to members of Alpha. The sentence in the aticle is contained in section "History: 1950-1969", and refers to Alpha Men's role in the African-American Civil Rights Movement (1955-1968); please note the years 1955-1968. There is a section in the article "History: 1919-1949", but there is no claim of civil rights campaigns by the fraternity or its memebers during this time period. But, prior to all this, in 1905, before 1920, honorary  Alpha member W.E.B. Dubois was the leader who assembled the Niagara Movement, the predecessor to the NAACP (est. 1909), and there were 3 other Alphas present: John Hope Franklin, Alonzo Herndon and Norris Herndon. I think this would make Dubois the "Father", but that's not the dispute here. There were many pioneers in the movement, the question is whether some of them were Alpha Men. Howard University, a reputable source, says Alpha men were vanguards as indicated in the source. I can use this word "Vanguard" in the article if that suits the administrators or other editors. Ccson 04:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Key role
What is wrong with "played a key role" Pioneers and vanguard are quite misleading. the Niagra movement (which was heavily assisted with whites) and the NAACP (which was heavily founded with the help of whites) were role players but not central like the father of the civil rights movement vernon johns. Vernon Johns is the father of the american civil rights movement, startig it in the 1920's. it ended in 63. thus alpha phi alpha weren't pioneers, but played key roles.

Martin Luther King was an Alpha, Rev. Jesse Jackson is an Omega, and Ralph Alberthy was a Kappa. Malcolm X belonged to a fraternity -- he was a member of the Nation of Islam. Thurgood Marshall was an Alpha. I am not too sure about W.E.B. DuBois...I think he was an Alpha. If you count women, both Rosa Parks and Coretta Scott King were honorary AKAs. Dorothy Height was a past YMCA president, Delta Sigma Theta president, Barbara Jordan (Delta) was the first black Congressman from the South as well as Shirley Chisolm (Delta), the first black Congresswoman. Was Medgar Evers a part of an NPHC organization?

this only makes the current statement stronger. 7 others vs maybe 4 alphas

pioneer http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pioneer

a person who is among those who first enter or settle a region, thus opening it for occupation and development by others. Mykungfu 08:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

First black fraternity and First intercolligiate black fraternity.
'''Although this may have been discussed earlier, research has allowed us to discover new facts that may change previous thought. Just like how there was the copernican point of view for the universe  and then the heliocentric... please read and look at the references provided.'''

As previously pointed out on another usertalk page. There seems to be  research that indicates that the first black fraternity is in fact alpha kappa nu is the first inter collegiate as well as overall black fraternity and sigma pi phi is the oldest surviving black fraternity.


 * sigma pi phi is an illustrious organization with a long and distinguised history. everything there is documented and non biased. various article links for references are there as well as the fraternity website as well as chapter website. if there is any problems with the page simply go to it and revise it, go to the talk section.   Sigma pi phi was added to the alpha phi alpha article way before i came along as can be seen here.  http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alpha_Phi_Alpha&oldid=69947100

Wiki does have a policy of no original research! Anything inserted has to be referenced an email by the historians would be considered to be original research. Mykungfu 19:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * alpha kappa nu . although kappa alpha psi was named in honor of alpha kappa nu, they are 2 distinct organizations.  kappa alpha psi has just as much authority as jimmy carter does in stating the type of organization alpha kappa nu is.  Kappa Alpha Psi is an organization while MSU Statesmen is a Newspaper which is unbiased.  There may be similiar wordings, but there is no foundation of your claim that the article is a quote from the history of kappa alpha psi.  Mykungfu 19:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

An additional article has been researched that details more of the controversy.

http://www.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=12053

Mykungfu 19:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

another reference provided.

http://groups.msn.com/NPHCArchivePhotoSociety/yourwebpage2.msnw

Mykungfu 20:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

You are right, it has been discussed earlier, as well as on your other pages. See below:

Even if the source didn't misquote the paragraph on Alpha Kappa Nu from "The History of Kappa Alpha Psi (and it does)," it is still a secondary source. The only thing that the author could "research" would be the original source of the quote, which you chose not to use, because it does not fit the argument you choose to make in attacking another organization. that makes it unreliable.

The member of Kappa Alpha Psi interviewed in one of your articles says he joined the organization in 1983, the same year of publication of his organization's published history, which disputes his opinion. I note that you are arguing simultaneously that Kappa Alpha Psi is and is not a valid source of information on Alpha Kappa Nu.

Even though you still are citing secondary (and for the sake of comity, let's assume that they are legitimate secondary sources), Your sources, are very careful (even in misquoting) to use some version of the original phrase "might have been...but[emphasis added]." Now what could be the reason for this? We know from reading the histories of various fraternities, including Alpha Phi Alpha, that there was an ongoing discussion on campuses about whether to charter as fraternities, social or study  clubs, or  societies. This is not a matter of simple semantics, as you have suggested on other pages. At the turn of the century, there were potential repercussions that were very real for African-Americans (or Negroes, if you like) as minorities that thought of organizing as a fraternity on any college campus. For whatever reason, as Kappa Alpha Psi documents their history (being the only original source of documented research on Alpha Kappa Nu), the organization was a club. This is notwithstanding the fact that you just re-edited their Wikipedia entry to say "fraternity," even though the page's creator (a member of Kappa Alpha Psi has previously reverted your same edits. Even the picture that you link on the MSN personal webpage shows a picture labeling it a "Society."  Perhaps they intended to later incorporate it as a Fraternity.  Perhaps Indiana University would not yet allow a group of African-Americans to organize as a fraternity. Perhaps they feared racial violence.  We don't know why, but for whatever reason, they didn't, and it seems they took pains not to identify themselves as one.  That in no way belittles their attempt, in the face of great odds. We can all imagine what they would have done if they had finished organizing, "but there were too few registrants to assure continuing organization." A few years later, in 1911, Kappa Alpha Nu, a forerunner of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, was organized, and has performed admirably ever since. Robotam 13:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is the original, primary, source that is troublesome for the POV that is offered, in relevant entirety (Note its NPOV as opposed to this article's secondary source cite that misquotes and aggrandizes it):

''Black-sponsored Greek letter organizations on the Indiana University campus might well have begun in 1903, but there were too few registrants to assure continuing organization.[emphasis added] In that year, a club was formed called Alpha Kappa Nu with the purpose of strengthening the Blacks' voice at the University and in the city of Bloomington. There is no record of any similar organization at Indiana until the chartering of Kappa Alpha Nu, a forerunner of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Incorporated, in 1911.''

[Excerpts taken from "The Story of Kappa Alpha Psi" by William L. Crump(1983)]

--Robotam 13:49, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

your basis is that the information is seconday and based of a book. there has been no verifiable proof that all the sources use the same book you quoted. You use a lot of perhaps.  Perhaps this, perhaps that. There is no concrete evidence. Taking original sources as shown below is reliable. Your argument is based on nothing concrete. I have provided concrete evidence. You state this is what the book says, but you provide no page number, location, etc. I have provided primary sources. Robotam is providing a lot of heresay and questionable debated. Mykungfu 15:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

In addition robotam is involved in a RFC by the page creater his opinion is in fact a bit biased. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/NinjaNubian

there is no debate about it being a fraternity or reversions that show this as he alleges here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kappa_Alpha_Psi&action=history

Mykungfu 15:56, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Even if the source didn't misquote the paragraph on Alpha Kappa Nu from the History of Kappa Alpha Psi (and it does), it is still a secondary source. The only thing that the author could "research" would be the original source of the quote, which you chose not to use, because it does not fit the argument you choose to make in attacking another organization. that makes it unreliable. Robotam 14:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * where does it say that the history of kappa alpha psi is the original source? what proof do you have behind it? Mykungfu 16:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright how is a published newspaper of morgan state university unreliable? they are a state school and historically black college.

http://media.www.msuspokesman.com/media/storage/paper270/news/2006/02/10/CampusLife/Tribute.A.Brief.History.Of.Black.Collegiate.Fraternities.And.Sororities-1614202.shtml?sourcedomain=www.msuspokesman.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com

Mykungfu 16:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

there are numerous sources provided

evidence

http://groups.msn.com/NPHCArchivePhotoSociety/yourwebpage2.msnw

this article details some of the controversy that still exists

http://www.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=12053

http://www.usca.edu/nununupes/history.htm

www.stp.uh.edu/vol69/138/news/news3.html

Mykungfu 16:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think we all agree that Alpha Kappa Nu was around in 1903. The real question is where they ever issued a charter by Indiana University as a recognized college organization, being it club, society, or fraternity. Ccson 17:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

can you tell me where Sigma Pi Phi was issued a charter? a charter doesnt take away from the fact that it is a fraternity. 64.131.205.160 06:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The Alpha article does claim "first fraternity", it says "first intercollegiate fraternity". The fact that Sigma Pi Phi has no charter from a university/colege, shows it was  never a collegiate organization. Ccson 02:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

A chater doesnt make an organization a collegiate organization. 64.12.116.133 08:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I see that Alpha Phi Alpha's recognition as the first inter collegiate black fraternity is now in serious doubt. Consequently, it shall be removed. Thanks Ccson. 150.210.226.2 23:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * only in your mind. Ccson 02:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You recognize that Alpha Kappa Nu was around in 1903. You also recognize that it is a black organization.  There have been many references to show it is a fraternity.  Thus why should Alpha Phi Alpha still state "first inter collegeiate black fraternity?"
 * There's never been a doubt of their existence, but, if you never sought a charter you were never a college organization. Many students organize themselves then and now for playing cards in the student center, going out partying, and volunteering for various causes; that doesn't make them a club, society or fraternity, and the college can't revoke a charter, because one was never issued.


 * A charter does not make a group a college organization.  Skull and Circle doesn't have a charter and they are a college organization.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_bones .  They
 * My statement above was with you and the kappa men discusssing the misquoting of the college page regarding the tenure of AKN. The newspapaer said they met for several years, the Kappa site said it never organized because many students didn't return the following year to ensure continuing organization.  You were also debating the classification of club, society or fraternity.  Again, I just wanted to say none of the 3 would come into question if they never formed.  If they were issued a charter, then the debate on club, society, frat, would be up for discussion.  67.34.213.192 15:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Please read this

"Alpha Kappa Nu, the first black fraternity, was founded in Indiana in 1903 and only lasted a year or so, Walter Kimbrough said, but it paved the way for similar organizations. Kimbrough, the author of Black Greek 101: The Culture, Customs, and Challenges of Black Fraternities and Sororities, shed light on those -- and other -- facts in a speech Tuesday at the University Center" Walter Kimbrough is an authority on black greeks and a neutral source. Mykungfu 05:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This coincides with the Kappa site that the organization was attempting to form, but failed because not enough students returned the following school year. I believe the article you referened says they existed for several years.  This means the information is dubious, however; no source indicages they were ever issued a charter as a recognized organization.  There is no reason to believe that the Cornell students were aware of AKN when they began meeting in 1905.  The Kappa organization indicates the 10 founders were aware of AKN; and possibly named their organization after AKN. Ccson 13:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * what does it matter if they were aware or not. What is stated is by a noted historian of black greek history is that they are in fact the first black inter collegiate fraternity and paved the way for similiar organizations.. i.e. Alpha Phi Alpha.  Mykungfu 18:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * that's apparently his opinion, the Kappas have a different view, and no evidence has been provided that suggest this group was ever "founded" at Indiana. The Alpha Phi Alpha article doesn't claim to be the first; it states Alpha is generally recognized as the first intercollegiate, and an entire paragraph is dedicated for the discussion of AKN and and SPF, and why their may be some doubt. Ccson 21:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

No evidence was presented that it was founded at Indiana? hmm.. I guess a photo and a historical archive isn't good enough. Well possibly a dubious assertion should be inserted there as well. In the first fraternity statement "Historian and Alpha archivist Herman Mason has stated, "As a historian who recognizes that laying a foundation for any period of history, I find their omission inexcusable and without merit." [67]" Maybe that should be applied to Alpha Phi Alpha. 64.131.205.160 01:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Fraternity by definition is

1. a local or national organization of male students, primarily for social purposes, usually with secret initiation and rites and a name composed of two or three Greek letters. 2. a group of persons associated by or as if by ties of brotherhood. 3. any group or class of persons having common purposes, interests, etc.: the medical fraternity. 4. an organization of laymen for religious or charitable purposes; sodality. 5. the quality of being brotherly; brotherhood: liberty, equality, and fraternity. 6. the relation of a brother or between brothers.

152.163.100.130 04:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Simply having greek letters isn't the factor only in determing if a group is a fraterity, there are six criteria. Each organization must determine they want to bound by a fraternal bound.  There is a fraternity call FarmHouse, no greek letter, and just be AKN chose greek letters doesn't make them a fraternity.  The organization apparently called themselves a society, much in the way social and literary club that predated Alpha Phi Alhpa was terned a "society", before it's members voted to become a fraternity.  The historical phot you posted on the Alpha Kappa Nu page indicates the group as a "society".  The term fraterity was not a new concept in 1903, so it's no mistake that "fraternity" was not used in the caption.  Ccson 12:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry I was wondering if you could locate the commission that states there are 6 criteria for determining whether or not a group is a fraternity? I'd also like to know whom gave them any authority. I think you mean because AKN. All fraternities are different, and were formed in different manners. This website states that the group is a fraternity. Looking at the top of the article, maybe mediation is the best move. StrangeApples 22:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the 6 numerated items you listed above that define a fraternity. It doesn't matter what others call them, the group defined themselves as a society, much like the Alpha social and literary club society before the decision to become a fraternity.  If the original Cornell social club was a fraternity, then there would have been no interal fighting and no one would have resigned at the thought of becomeing a fraternity.  Just because males organize and choose greek letters doesn't make them a fraternity.  the letter Alpha Phi Alpha were chosen even when the group was still a society.  Ccson 03:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

by definition of fraternity it seems as if alpha kappa nu is one. 152.163.100.130 06:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Clarfication Ninjanubian = mykungfu
the original password to ninjanubian was lost.. i created another account. thanks for understanding Mykungfu 21:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet Accusations
No, I'm not a sockpuppet of CCson, or anyone else for that manner. In addition any communication I have had with anyone else is documented. I understand how the person vandalizing this site might wish to give that impression for someone else, since they have made multiple harassing edits under various IDs and IPs, however, and are in jeopardy of being blocked. Robotam 16:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

you suddenly appear during the debate concerning Alpha Phi Alpha with no previous history. You only go to articles in which Ccson has appeared. You co sign on articles that Ccson has written. It's simply too coincidental. I doubt any sockpuppet would state that they are a sockpuppet Mykungfu 16:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

My friend, sorry, no. Robotam 19:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * NinjaNubian, I would like to point out the Bold, Revert and Discuss cycle. It states that you can be bold with adding information, but if it gets reverted, do not revert back, but start a discussion and wait until consensus is reached. Although this is not a formal guideline, it is a conduct you might want to adopt. Errabee 19:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not like Bobbydoop, Mikeandike, NinjaNubian or Mykunfu, one in the same. I stand behind all my contributions and whenever I have to say something, I will do it under the ID I have had since I joined wikipedia as a contributor; that is "Ccson". Ccson 15:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

umm.. any proof of this alleged correlation between bobby, mike, ninja and mykung? 64.131.205.160 06:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Oldest African American Publication
is not by the NAACP it is actually the Philadelphia Tribune

http://interestalert.com/story/siteia.shtml?Story=st/sn/09120000aaa03942.prn&Sys=siteia&Fid=PUBLISHI&Type=News&Filter=Publishing Mykungfu 17:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thi contributor who has not signed his contribution appears to be correct. I review website for The Crisis, and their claim is to one of the oldest, not the first.  I will update the Alpha Phi Alpha that the Sphinx is one of the oldest. Signed, Sealed, Updated Ccson 17:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I move for the statement "amongst the longest in continuing publication" I opt for removal of "Only the the NAACP's The Crisis, started by fraternity member W.E.B. DuBois in 1909" Mykungfu 17:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The first is Freedom’s Journal, 1827

http://www.indianapolisrecorder.com/News/history/archivearticle.asp?NewsID=913&Article=PRIMARY&sID=98

Mykungfu 17:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC) The third oldest publication is

"INDIANAPOLIS RECORDER -One of the Nation's greatest Weekly Newspapers. The Nation's 3rd. oldest Black News publication. Over 100 years in business." http://www.indianapolisrecorder.com/News/AboutUs.asp?sID=30 http://blackquest.com/bq_news.htm   Mykungfu 17:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ccson, it appears you may have mistakenly clipped the original wording while editing. Alpha's designation of The Sphinx Magazine has always been as so:

The Sphinx Magazine, published in 1914, is the second oldest continuously published'' black journal in the United States. The oldest one is the NAACP’s Crisis Magazine, which was started by W.E.B. Du Bois, a member of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity. '' Robotam 19:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Oldest

The oldest black journal is actually

The oldest black periodical in the world, The Christian Recorder (originally The Christian Herald ), was begun by the AME. The world's oldest black magazine, The AME Review, was also a product of the AME Church (Melton:330-331).

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/ame.html

the ame review is the oldest black magazine founded in 1884

http://dbs.ohiohistory.org/africanam/page.cfm?ID=2302

so at least 3 other black magazine publications predate the spinx that are still being published

you can thank me later robotam and Ccson

Mykungfu 19:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

There a couple of things I want to mention:
 * Robotam, you have copied the information directly from the cornell site and that's a copyright violation. I'm going to restore for now the original text, which simply omitted the "continuously published Journal". I will add that part and supply your reference, which by the wau is currently listed as footnote 5. the name of the footnote is "conrell-library", and so you only needed to enter < ref name=cornell-library /> since it is listed before this reference.  You can take a look once I make the change.
 * NinjaNubian, there appears to be validity that there are other jounals that predate the Sphinx. The question is if they have been "Continuously" published, which would refute the statement on the cornell university website.  Can you provide evidence to this fact?  The current cornell statement would not mention the "Only the NAACP etc. you want removed, but that doesn't mean the statement is false.
 * let's all work together and be patient. The sentence has been there for months, and it can survive a few days to explore the truth.  Ccson 22:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

no problem, didn't mean to butcher the edit! Robotam 23:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Never said the statement is false, I said it's inaccurate. "The Spinx is amongst the oldest black publications still being published today." I think that is good enough. The NAACP also should be removed. Is there any documentation that Spinx is continuously published? Is there a list? that can be viewd. 64.131.205.160 02:47, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Is a partial list

http://docsouth.unc.edu/church/butt/butt.html

64.131.205.160 03:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

here is yet another journal

this one is published annually since 1909.

Even though I think this is a push "The Spinx is amongst the oldest black magazines still being published today."

http://dbs.ohiohistory.org/africanam/pamphlet/index.cfm

64.131.205.160 03:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The original statement was false because it indicated it [The Sphinx] was the second oldest publication, which is not correct. The current statement in article, sourced by cornell univeristy, and albeit, misstated in the article previously is what we're discussing ,where they indicate The second oldest continuously Published journal". I think it's a stretch to compare a pamphlet of names to a magazine, however; how do you know it's been published continuously.  I did review the site, but I didn't notice that statement,  can you paste that statement here on the talk page?  I find it interesting that you doubt an Ivy league university, but can bounce around on the internet, find a site with dates before 1909, and say, I've never heard of these journals or pamphlet, but here's proof, and I know for a fact they've never missed an issue. 67.34.212.83 13:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC) Ccson
 * I don't have a POV on this isssue. I've sourced the statement from a reputable and reliable source.  In order to disprove it, you must find something that directly contradicts the source.  You've only proven that other journals existed before, but you have not proved that those journals were continuously published, which is the qualifying statement.  There's a reason why the source makes a point of "continuously published", because they want to qualify the statement so that it is true. Ccson 16:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

it states that is has been published continuously. take a better read. it states it includes a list of names, but in no way does it state that that is the only thing it says " includes list of church districts, portraits of clergy, statistics, annual report, reports on mission schools in Africa and schools in US" Even the AME review doesnt state itself to be the first "The world's oldest black magazine, The AME Review, was also a product of the AME Church (Melton:330-331)"  It says the oldest

http://dbs.ohiohistory.org/africanam/serial/aa_se01.cfm

The source used provides no reference, simply states that this is the case. It is written by "Robert L. Harris, Jr., National Historian Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. on13 April 2006" on the cornell library website. I know it may sound good to be the first of some kind, but is amongst the oldest really that bad? The Crises itself wasn't always a magazine as can be viewed by "In his first editorial William Du Bois said that Crisis would "be first and foremost a newspaper", "http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAcrisis.htm

The crises about page states it is a magazine, periodical, and journal interchangebly, it may be a magazine now, but when it started it was a newspaper. "William Edward Burghardt Du Bois founded THE CRISIS magazine as the premier crusading voice for civil rights. Today, THE CRISIS, one of the oldest black periodicals in America, continues this mission. respected journal of thought, opinion and analysis, the magazine "

http://www.thecrisismagazine.com/about.htm

Even the validity about black magazine is in question in that the NAACP is an organization for the advancement of colored people, which includes jews, american indians, etc.

"His hot, raking editorials oftentimes lead to battles within the ranks of the Association. Besides this, the NAACP was, at that time, under the leadership of whites, to which DuBois objected. He always felt that Blacks should lead and that if whites were to be included at all, it should be in a supportive role." http://www.duboislc.org/html/DuBoisBio.html

205.188.116.198 16:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, I cannot prove or disprove the assertions of the Cornell University Staff, or determine what critieria they used to verify the authenticity of a statement they put their name upon. They are a reputable and neutral source, and the current statement within the Alpha Phi Alpha article is in line with the source.
 * I looked at your link again and searched for "continuously", but I could not find the text. Again, can you copy and paste the entire sentence here so I can search again?Ccson 03:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The only statement in the Alpha Phi Alpha article regarding The Crisis magazine is that it was started by a fellow fraternity brother, and that it predates the Alpha publication [the Sphinx]. These two statements are true. One only needs to look at the The Crisis or W.E.B. Dubois articles to verify the authenticity of the statement. Ccson 04:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It wasn't cornell staff, it was an Alpha Phi Alpha historian. The website states

"Exhibition items were digitized by the Cornell University Library's Digital Consulting and Production Services staff" http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/alpha/

The actual reference statement is "The Sphinx Magazine, published in 1914, is the second oldest continuously published black journal in the United States. The oldest one is the NAACP’s Crisis Magazine, which was started by W.E.B. Du Bois, a member of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity."

The Sphinx Magazine, published in 1914 (true)

is the second oldest continuously published black journal in the United States (not verified)

Why?

The oldest one is the NAACP’s Crisis Magazine, which was started by W.E.B. Du Bois. (false b/c the NAACP isn't a black magazine)

The problem is that the NAACP isn't a black magazine or a black group. Even Dubious commented on the lack of Blacks in power

"His hot, raking editorials oftentimes lead to battles within the ranks of the Association. Besides this, the NAACP was, at that time, under the leadership of whites, to which DuBois objected. He always felt that Blacks should lead and that if whites were to be included at all, it should be in a supportive role." http://www.duboislc.org/html/DuBoisBio.html

in the NAACP article on Wikipedia it states:

"The conference resulted in a more viable, influential and diverse organization, where the leadership was predominantly white and heavily Jewish. In fact, at its founding, the NAACP had only one African American on its executive board, DuBois himself, and did not elect a black president until 1975."

for all we know the Spinx can be the first black continously published black magazine. If that was the case simple research could prove it correct. do you now see why it may be better to have amongst the oldest continuously published black journals? thanks for taking the time to read this. 64.131.205.160 05:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't have a POV on whether the Sphinx is listed as first, second, etc. I just want to have a reputable source which verifies any statement within the article.::Again, Cornell University is a reputable and neutral source, and its library staff cerainly understands the need for verifying information before publication.

Cornell transcribed it didn't verify if you look at the site 64.131.205.160 17:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * For the third time, are you going to copy/paste the statement within this talk page where your source indicates that it has been published continuously? We need it documented, and perhaps even verified for it accuracy before summarily impeaching a neutral source.

A reference is provided. Read. 64.131.205.160 17:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The only statement in the Alpha Phi Alpha article regarding The Crisis is that it was started by a fellow fraternity brother, and that it predates the Alpha publication [the Sphinx]. These two statements are true. One only needs to look at the The Crisis or W.E.B. Dubois articles to verify the authenticity of the statement.  Please read article on The Crisis, which indicates it began as a journal.  Dubois' personal/professional beliiefs don't diqualify the 2 statments in the article regarding The Crisis: fraternity member and started the Crisis.
 * The current statement within the Alpha Phi Alpha article regarding the Sphinx magazine being the second oldest continuously published journal is in line with the source, Cornell Library. I would like to move that the current statement in question be left "As Is" since the source has not been impeached, nor the statement itself. Ccson 14:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * article as written states "Still published, the Sphinx is the second oldest continuously published black journal in the United States"   it doesnt say journal, it says black journal.  please re read this.  This is what disqualifies the statement.  The NAACP  isn't a black organization, it's an organization that services native americans, jews, hispanics, as well as blacks.  The crises isn't a black magazine or journal. Do you understand yet?
 * That's a very myopic definition of "black"; Please see black people. Alpha Phi Alpha's programs doesn't limit its intended audience to African Americans; the article specifically indicates that the fraternity is interested in issues that affect people of color (black people).  The Sphinx and the Crisis' audience would include blacks, and that would include native americans, jews, hispanics, as well as the african diaspora. Ccson 05:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I saw black people "Black (noun, black or blacks; adjective, black people) is a term that commonly refers to the indigenous peoples of Africa (with the exception of Maghreb Berbers) and their diasporic populations. Black also refers to various non-African, dark-skinned peoples who inhabit Asia and the Pacific"

and african american..

"An African American (also Afro-American, Black American, or simply black) is a member of an ethnic group in the United States whose ancestors, usually in predominant part, were indigenous to sub-saharan Africa"

Yes the fraternity may in fact be intererested in issues that affect people of color, but the fraternity until 1945 was exclusively black/negro.. even the History of Alpha Phi Alpha title included the word negro until 1945. That withstanding, the NAACP was for all colored people in USA... Native Americans, Orientals (who worked on the railroads), Hispanics, Jews, and Blacks... since it's inception.. it was for all people of color. Even the name National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, tells what it does. To say that a magazine that is published for them is a "black" journal" is a misnomer. Consequently it must be removed.  64.131.205.160 05:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

honestly though, i'm going to delete that whole sentence. you can bring in a mediator to review this, and then we'll move on to something else. Thanks 64.131.205.160 05:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Your statement was that the Crisis was not for just for "blacks". I showed you black people would include the groups the NAACP was created for, which would include people for africa. Therefore; the statement in the article is true. Even if the Sphinx target a smaller group of what's considered Black people, they're still black. I hope the admins review this discussion and see that you have changed your statement about 5 times why the statement is false
 * 1st, The two magazines are not the oldest, saying "is not by the NAACP it is actually the Philadelphia Tribune", until a user pointed out that the reference said "continuously published".
 * 2nd, you bounced around the web and found publications published before 1909 such the Philadelpha Tribuune, until it was pointed out that a reference says "continuoulsy published JOURNAL".
 * 3rd, you suggested the web site for the publications you found were published continuously when you said "it states that is has been published continuously", but after 3 attempts of requesting that you provide that information here, you have not,
 * 4th, then you atached Dubois personally as if that has anything to do with the status of a journal
 * 5th, then you stated the statement regarding "continuously published" [The Sphinx Magazine, published in 1914 (true) is the second oldest continuously published black journal in the United States (not verified)]
 * 6th, your current theory is "The NAACP isn't a black organization, it's an organization that services native americans, jews, hispanics, as well as blacks. The crises isn't a black magazine or journal." Ihave shown that words "negro", "black", etc have evolved over time, and were blanket statements that would include many groups that might be included a single category today.  Thats why Hispanics in some demographics now include Mexicans, even though in the past they would have been considered Indians, and why the current politically correct term "African-American" would only apply to blacks of African descent, not all the categories listed in Black people.  The word in the source and this article says "black journal", which matches the noun that the magazines might have used almost 100 years ago to describe all people of color.

For the record, the sentence is the second oldest continuously published black journal. You have attacked the words second, oldest, continuously, journal and black. I hope the readers of this discussion can see the witch hunt you have engaged, and that you will attack any single word in the sentence to meet your own POV. I await the response from other users and admins on this talk point. Ccson 14:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Logical arguments develop. As you develop so does everyone else. The meat of the argument has in fact changed, but the statement of is the second oldest continuously published black journal is still incorrect. No where was Dubois attacked personally, that is simply ridiculous. Quoting Dubois based on a website by the Dubois foundation is not an attack. That is simply ridiculous.

As you stated previously, "In order to disprove it, you must find something that directly contradicts the source. " Being that the NAACP isn't a black organization and magazine consequently isn't a black journal the statement is disproved. Many thanks. 152.163.100.130 15:41, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You omitted this sentence when you supplied some of the text from the Black people article above; The terms Negro and Colored also are used occasionally as synonyms for black, but sometimes are considered pejorative. . The "CP" in NAACP stands for Colored People.  As I stated above, the adjectives/nouns to descibe people of color have evolved, and one must look at the context of the statement, as opposed to disecting each single word.  Since "negro" and "colored" are no longer politically correct words in some environs, a similar word was chosen to convey the samee meaing. Wikipedia, a reputable source, says the word black is a synonym of NAA"Colored"People;  therefore the statement is true. Many thanks for helping to prove the validity of the source, and the palpable tolerance of its writers/librarians.Ccson 17:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * childish attempt at best

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored ""Person of color" or "people of color" are synonyms for people who are not white in the United States and for members of a non-white group. Some find this term equally offensive as the term "colored", primarily because it fixes whites as the benchmark for racial division, fostering an allegedly "us-versus-them" view of race relations. "


 * occasionally synonmyous...doesnt mean always synoymous... in the case of the NAACP which was a multiracial organization. Where whites jews were members, as well as native americans, orientals and hispanics and are not NEGRO or BLACK  colored means a person of clor.. again passage will be changed... since the NAACP is a multi racial organization and the crises is a muli racial magazine. thanks  64.131.205.160 17:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * once again you misinterpret and minsconstrue. The word is no longer used because these terms have become offensive, not because they sometimes mean the same thing and sometime they don't.The defintion I supplied and your own definiton says  "occassionaly used as a synonym", not "occasionally synonmyous" as you write.  My definiton gives the reason why "colored" and "negro" are no longer used frequently, because they are sometimes are considered pejorative''.  As with all synonyms, the  author chooses from a list of that would convey the same meaning. The Cornell University source chose to the use the world "black", possibly because the words Negro and Colored have become offensiveas both of our defitions indicate.


 * the NAACP was founded for "Colored People" and the Crisis was created for "Colored People", do you agree? Do you really think that someone would write in 2006, "second oldest continuosly published colored people journal"?


 * finally, the discussion is not who started the NAACP or its journal. You're questioning if the source has properly described the targeted audience of The Crisis.  It was for Colored People, but that term is no longer used in polite societies, they use accepted synonyms of the day, such as "black". Ccson 14:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * the NAACP is a multi racial organization... unless you have a footnote that states that is the reason they wrote it or it's in the article.. your assumption is meaningless.  consequently it will be removed


 * again colored people means people of color.. minorities. The writer could have easily stated minority journal, but he didn't .. he stated black.. and that is what makes it false.  No original research.   Thanks  Mykungfu 16:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

You are not the final arbiter on what will and will not be the final content of the article. Minority is not a synonym of any ethnic group, see minority and it doesn't mention anything about black/jews,colored or whites. The word minority can be used to describe an ethnic groups when they are in the minority. In some cities of America and countries, the non-white population would be considered the minority race. The contributor to the article only has to supply the source of the statement, the proof is on you to prove what the cornell university staff meant by black when they were referring to the target audience of the Crisis. In its simplest form, black is a synonym of colored or negro, and you can't invalidate the source because the word was used in a way that you've never seen it employed. Ccson 18:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * the burden of proof is also on you to disprove that Alpha Kappa Nu wasn't founded in 1903. You can't have it both ways.  Either you rely on an article whole heartedly or you don't.   I stated that the NAACP isn't a black organization.  I supplied proof that it wasn't by showing how it's leadership for 69 years was WHITE.. it has only been in the past 30 years that it's leadership was non-white as well as a good portion of it's members aren't black.  It's up to you to disprove that.   IF you can't.. then accept change..   152.163.100.130 22:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There's nothing in the article about the leasdership of the NAACP or its membership roster, we're talking about who the magazine was started for, that was for NAA"colored people" or "blacks" in today's accepted terminology. Also, many whites started historically black colleges, and past presidents and leaders of many of the institutions were also white, this doesn't mean the colleges were not started for "colored people/blacks".67.34.213.192 15:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Colored People doesnt mean blacks.. during that time there were "yellow" which was asian, red which was native american, "black" which negro, "jews" weren't considered to be white nor caucasion, and "white" which was caucasian.  While this debate ravages on, i'll simply place a dubious argument on the page.  You can say who the magazine was started for, but you've provided no proof on who it was started for.
 * I think we can assume that a journal representing the National Association for Colored People" was intended for Colored People. We're having this discussion because you consider the arugment "dubious".  Once it's over, by consensus or by a decision of an admin, the matter will be closed.  But, your threat of placing a dubious argument even after a consensus is akin to a child's temper tantrum who doesn't get his way. Ccson 22:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Since you quoted PBS. I'll share with you another statement from the same website. "Du Bois made THE CRISIS into a militant voice in the crusade for black civil rights and for the rights of all people of color"   Mykungfu 05:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Alpha article just indicates that the journal was founded by a fraternity brother and it predates the Alpha publication. The Alpha article links to The Crisis, so anyone desiring the history of this journal can go their for in depth info. I don't think its a surprise that the NAACP was a militant organization in securing the  rights of colored people, but you are welcome to add this statement to the article for The Crisis; just be sure to indicate who made the claim (i.e. Ms. Ovington said Dubois . . .), and  provide the reference.
 * The author has chosen to separate "black civil rights" from the rights of all people of color. The author of the Cornell articles includes them in one category.  This is what I meant earlier when I said each author can choose to use what synonym they want, and for historical perspective can go back almost 100 years and use a term that's oudated: "colored people", some authors use current venacular and just say 'black people'.  The word "black" was not a common term in 1909, so even the author has udpated her choice of words.  Again, one must look to the context of the statement and what they are trying to convey, as opposed to saying I wouldn't say it that way. but this author is correct because that's how I would personally make the statement. Can we move forward from this discussion and allow each author choice words? Ccson 13:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * NAACP had a mission for the "advancement of all people of color" not just black people. Colored People and Black People are not synonymous.  You used Wikipedia as a source and I disproved you there.  Until you agree to make the article a NPOV we cannot move on.  The Alpha Phi Alpha pov is incorrect and you simply want to maintain this.  All you have to do is change the wording of Sphinx being the second oldest black journal to amongst the oldest black journals.  How difficult is that?  I have already disproved you argument that you based it on of "second, oldest, continuously, journal and black." Mykungfu 18:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think Ms. Ovington was trying to make the distinction you say proves your point. I believe she was pointing out that although Dubois himself was  considered "African American" in todays vernacular, that his efforts were concentrated on "all people of color", not just the ethnic group he was a member of.  The same statement could be made when speaking of the Jewish leaders of the NAACP, "they sought to improve the conditions of Jews and all other people of color".  The NAACP and The Crisis was created for Colored People/Darker Races/Blacks.


 * Dubois proclaimed his intentions in his first editorial: The object of this publication is to set forth those facts and arguments which show the danger of race prejudice, particularly as manifested today toward colored people. Dubois didn't say "blacks", "jews", arabs, etc. and "all people of color".


 * Dubois had no divison of 'colored people' when the journal was founded, in fact the original title of the journal was The Crisis: A Record Of The Darker Races . If Dubois wanted the NAACP and The Crisis to be only for his race, he wouldn't have assembled the multi-racial group who attended the Niagara Movement. Ccson 22:39, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * you seem to assume that in the united states there are blacks and whites. When in fact especially in that time, there are blacks, whites, and native americans.   colored is a broad definition.   Dubois is a mulatto... half black and half white.   your continued assertion that the NAACP is a black organization and the Crisis is a black journal is unfounded and without substantial proof.  I've continued to lay fact after fact where it states that neither is true.  The NAACP is a multi racial organization and the Crises was founded for blacks and people of all colors.  If you can disprove this go ahead.. Please no more silly assertions of what is black and things of that nature.  Dubois has no division of races? where do you base this from? Although the Niagra movement is the forerunner of the NAACP it isn't the NAACP and it isn't the Crises.   Dubois was the editor and the member of the NAACP he was never head of it.   He was pro-segregation in terms of education of black children "In the 1930s, Du Bois found himself in a bitter dispute with Walter White, the head of the NAACP, when Du Bois suddenly penned articles that advocated voluntary segregation, maintaining that black children would receive a better education from black teachers. Du Bois resigned from the editorship of THE CRISIS and the NAACP in 1934. "   As stated "black civil rights and for the rights '''of all people of color'"  So Dubois made a difference in what he wanted the magazine to be used for as well as the multitude of races that it's made for.  64.131.205.160 01:04, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

please cease from the personal attacks " But, your threat of placing a dubious argument even after a consensus is akin to a child's temper tantrum who doesn't get his way. Ccson 22:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)"   when you have used  dubious in the past as in ... the kappa alpha psi article. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kappa_Alpha_Psi&diff=76806810&oldid=76159731 64.131.205.160 01:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I used the wikipedia template "Dubious" because I didn't want to change someone elses work without a disucssion; something you should learn. As you can see, the info I find dubious is still in the article, I didn't result to vandalism or bad wikietiquette in changing someone's hard work.  The template creates a link to the talk page of the article so the topic can be disucssed.  We are discussing various facts you feel are dubious about Alpha, but rather than use the dubious previously, you just vandalized the article.  Your threat was that if it is allowed to stay after mediation, you would place the Dubious template on the page. Once a topic has been agreed to the editors or mediated by the admins, the info is no longer considered dubious; the template is removed from the article, one doesn't place dubious on the article because one didn't get their way. Ccson 14:28, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

this isn't your personal page, and everyone has the right to contribute regardless of whether or not you feel there contribution is valid. you have the right to question things and discuss it. vandalism is perspective and dubious is a fair perspective. no one placed dubious on the article as of yet. get your hands off the bucket of fried chicken and use your brains 64.131.205.160 07:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Vaughn Lowery
His name insertion has been on for at least 2 weeks, I'll be reinserting Robotam's deletion. Using the be bold guide that was inserted above. He is far more famous then Mike Powell.. who is only known for a long jump. 64.131.205.160 02:47, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

There was a open discussion on including this name, and vandal added the name before consensus was reached. Just because it was there for 1 week, doesn't override the fact that a consensus had not been reached. can you provide evidence that a consensus was reached? Ccson 15:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

there was no consensus on Mike Powell. A deadline was issued and no strong evidence was made. So Vaugn was inserted. 205.188.116.198 16:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Stated by Ccson here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Robotam#Vaughn_Lowery

Vaughn Lowery I agree that Mr. Lowery has done nothing which embodies the goals and ideas of Alpha Phi Alpha that warrant his inclusion from over 175,000 possible. I think NN had other reason for including Lowery, probably some personal characteristic that would embarass the fraternity. There's a lenghty discussion on the Alpha Phi Alpha talk page regarding the inclusion of Barry and Lowery. It was never agreed that they should be included, however; I got tired of the revert war, and Ninjanubian added them. The name was initially in the intro, but I have moved it to its current section. Andrew Young and Maynard Jackson are included in the Intro paragraph as well as the "Membership" section of the article. You may want to create a new discussion on removing Lowery's name, and of course I will support this. Ccson 13:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Upon full protection being removed Vaugn Lowery's deletion will be reverted.  205.188.116.198 17:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

205.188.116.198 17:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that's up to a consensus from the editors and just as you're questioning information that has been here for almost a year, you edit of just over 1 week can certainly be reviewed. Again, there was no consensus on Vaughn Lowery, and I didn't revert because I was tired of the revert war and that was the advice of the admins.  You still had no authorization or consensus to add the name.  Today, there are 2 editors who believe he name should not appear and that seems to be the majority consensus.  Are you not going to accept the majority opinion? Ccson 03:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

actually it's 2 vs 2. 64.131.205.160 05:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * you can't count your aliases and sockpuppet IDs

One member section
There are 2 member sections. whch list members of Alpha Phi Alpha. 2 is unncessary and bulks up the article. One is enough. Combining is a better idea.

Also this is a hard read...."Washington D.C. and New York City Mayors Marion Barry and David Dinkins"

Members of Alpha Phi Alpha include former Jamaican Prime Minister and Rhodes Scholar Norman Manley, Nobel Peace Prize winner Martin Luther King, Jr., former U.S. Vice President Hubert Humphrey, Olympian Jesse Owens, Justice Thurgood Marshall, and former Atlanta Mayors Maynard Jackson and Andrew Young. Numerous other American leaders are among the men who have adopted the fraternity’s principles—manly deeds, scholarship, and love for all mankind.

The fraternity's membership roster includes activist Dick Gregory, Princeton Professor Cornel West, Congressman Charles B. Rangel, former HUD secretary Samuel Pierce, entrepreneur John Johnson, athlete Mike Powell, musician Donny Hathaway, and former Washington D.C. and New York City Mayors Marion Barry and David Dinkins.[50]

205.188.116.198 16:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The introductory paragraphs summarizes everything that's contained within the body; therefore; everything in the intro should be repeated somewhere within the body. That's part of the qualifications of becoming a Featured Article. Ccson 03:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with putting each mayor's name before his respective city. The word "former" should be included.  Ccson 03:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * A summary would say "Members of Alpha Phi Alpha include former Prime Ministers, Rhode Scholars, and Supreme Court Justices."    Later on.. in the article..

"The fraternity's membership roster includes..." What is in the intro really isn't a summary b/c it's a totally different list.. 64.131.205.160 05:26, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The list in the intro could be there even if there was no list in the article because it mentions names withiin the article. The names within the intro are a compilation of many names, from different sections of the article, that's why it's a summary.  Only you have made the distinction that they are one in the same.  Ccson 14:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

if you read the article you'll see that there are names in the intro aren't listed in many places in the article. 64.131.205.160 17:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * For example Ccson 05:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * read and look.. 64.131.205.160 05:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

so.. one member section agreed?
 * The quality of a good intro is that it summarizes the main article. You've only pointed out that there are  names in the intro aren't listed in many places in the article.  64.131.205.160 17:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC).  I only found one name; Andrew Young; it was originally in the article, but got deleted by accident.  Andrew Young's name can be re-added to the membership section where it was mentioned.  67.34.213.192 15:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The intro isn't of quality.. name 2 or 3 members in the intro and others later on. not almost a dozen in the beginning and the end. Mykungfu 05:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia editors selected Alpha Phi Alpha as a Featured Article because they consider Alpha Phi Alpha as one of the best articles it has to offer the world. The article appeared on the Wikipedia main page as Today's featured article on July 25, 2006; this coincided with the fraternity's celebration of its centenary, being held in Washington D.C. of the same week.  In point of fact, at present, there are 1117 featured articles, out of a total of 1,399,543 articles on Wikipedia. Thus, about one in 1250 articles meet the Feautred Article criteria for accuracy, neutrality, completeness, and style.  The Alpha Phi Alpha article is included on:
 * Version 0.5 release of Wikipedia, a test release of high-quality articles covering topics of great importance
 * Wikipedia CD selection, a hand selection of only about 2000 articles of material selected for interest to schools
 * Wikipedia websites in French and Hebrew:
 * French version of Alpha Phi Alpha.
 * Hebrew version of Alpha Phi Alpha.
 * Plus, see Université de l'État de l'Ohio and Maynard Jackson. These foreign language articles were created as a direct result of wikilinks in the introduction paragraph of Alpha Phi Alpha.

that's nice to know, but hasn't made any type of point. 64.131.205.160 00:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Alpha Phi Alpha is a high quality article from the introduction to the external links. Ask the Wikipedia editors in English, French and Hebrew. Ccson 00:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

ok that still has nothing to do with one member section. 64.131.205.160 01:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Hubert H. Humphrey
i'm unable to verify his membership in the fraternity. StrangeApples 16:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

(Long sigh) Google rocks. http://billstatus.ls.state.ms.us/documents/2006/html/HC/HC0107SG.htm

what is this website? is his membership listed on the Alpha Phi Alpha official website? 64.131.205.160 15:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC) If you go to the national website, which I know you have many, many, many, many ,many times, you will see that the membership list is a partial listing. http://www.alphaphialpha.net/alpha/legacy/alumni.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.166.255.40 (talk • contribs).

'''This is not Ccson. Please stop placing his name by this statement.'''

With the partial listing that is on the website, nowhere does it state that former VP Humphrey is a member. Unless this can be verified I move for removal. 64.131.205.160 17:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks to the contributor who said noticed that someone is vandalizing my ID. Ccson 03:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

This is Ccson, since you're an Alpha, I suggest you read your history book. Ccson 03:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * see List of Alpha Men Ccson 13:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Skip Mason
I'm wondering what makes the contributions of Skip Mason any different from a personal website, opinion article or editorial..

Reading this, I wonder if it really is less objective and more subjective

"As a historian who recognizes that laying a foundation for any period of history, I find their omission inexcusable and without merit. Permit me to share some a few statements (and of course my personal commentary in between) from their books:  "

http://www.skipmason.com/hm/hm08.htm

on some of his website pages he states "DISCLAIMER: This page is not affiliated with the National Organization. I am not the Historian of the fraternity, just a brother who is and has always been thirsty for more knowledge on this organization. The information provided has been thoroughly researched and documented and is brought to you with all the fraternal love and spirit I possess. Sources are available upon request. " http://www.skipmason.com/about.htm

He's not the fraternity's historian, but he is a historian and the Fraternity's Chairman of Historical Commission. http://www.alphaphialpha.net/alpha/today/committees.html (written by 143.166.226.40   11:00, 30 September 2006)

alright,he is a the chairmen of National Chairmen & Coordinators "Historical Commission Herman Mason", but his website claims the page that is sited is not affiliated with the national organization, it states that all knowledge has been researched, but there is no documentation. The quote listed on the Alpha Phi Alpha page is not NPOV, and can be viewed as being an attack. 64.131.205.160 15:41, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Self-published sources (online and paper) See also Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Using online and self-published sources Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources

Exceptions may be when a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field, or a well-known professional journalist has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability   64.131.205.160 16:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Can't argue with you there. Good point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Kappa_Nu (posted by 16:28, 30 September 2006 143.166.255.40 (Talk) )

i move for removal of this statement in it's non neutral pov, by skip mason "As a historian who recognizes that laying a foundation for any period of history, I find their omission inexcusable and without merit."

64.131.205.160 17:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The statement is an opinion, however; in this case, it's not a personal opinion, it's a professional opinion as a learned historian. Mason is fortright in detailing what is fact, personal and/or professional opinion.

Someone has indicated that Mr. Mason's sources are available upon request. This means that any objections to the facts he presents can be challenged directly to Mason. You can't challenge his opinion unless the opinion was stated as "fact". Wikipedia citation policy just requires that you attribute the quote to the person, and place the quoted text within double quotation such Ccson says "I'm disappointed and saddened when editors indulge in abject vandalism and vitriolic attacks against a person". Anyone can quote me on that. Ccson 15:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding documentation, I believe Mason tells the reader exactly where he retrieved the information, for example, In the book The Story of Kappa Alpha Psi by William L. Crump(1983), the following statement is made in the prologue:. There is the source. Ccson 15:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Image:Robeson10.jpg fair use?
I would like to ask if it is really a fair use to have Image:Robeson10.jpg at this article. The US stamp image is copyrighted and isn't it enough post it at Paul Robeson only? Fair-use images require some contributions to the article but I am unsure of it here.--Jusjih 16:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Good point, maybe it should be removed! 205.188.116.198 17:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed the image as copyvio. Cowman109 Talk 17:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The image is used in one article only now. My general thought is that one fair-use image in one relevant article has the best fairness. A fair-use image in too many or no articles is unfair. An article with too many fair-use images may not be fair.--Jusjih 17:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)