Talk:Alpha Phi Omega/2006

Wikipedians in Alpha Phi Omega Category
A new category for Wikipedians in Alpha Phi Omega has been created to allow individual members of Alpha Phi Omega to identify themselves on their personal talk pages, in order to enhance communication among those brothers that contribute to wikipedia. To add yourself to the category, click on the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedians_in_Alpha_Phi_Omega or the link at the bottom of the page and follow the instructions at the top of that page. Dr. Cash 20:34, 12 September 2005 (UTC) and Naraht 02:44, 13 September 2005 (UTC) (we should probably just turn this into instructions without a who made it.


 * The new thing seems to be User Boxes. Any thought on an APO User Box?  --Emb021 20:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * User Box made, see below. Naraht 23:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * For user box put on your page. Naraht 23:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Abbreviations.
None of the abbreviations (APO, APhiO, APhiQ, APhiQue, AFW) is actually official with the National Fraternity. While APO is most used, both APhiO and APhiQ/APhiQue are both used by subsets of the active recognized chapters. Howard University's chapter (Zeta Phi) uses APhiQ and is certainly a recognized visited chapter.

AFW, OTOH, as an abbreviation is an artifact of the common symbol font representing Phi as F (which isn't too bad) and Omega as W (which is horrendous). The only reason that it is there is a brother who contributed to wikipedia said there was a survey at the National Convention that asked "What abbreviation does your chapter use?" which had AFW as a choice. Not sure why.

Naraht 16:40, 9 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I would recommend keeping APO, APhio, and APhiQ. AFW, in my opinion, is just plain silly since it's not really a true abbreviation of Alpha Phi Omega at all; it just appears to be some computer geek pointing out the keyboard combinations used to denote APhiO in the symbol font,... But seriously, how many chapters to you see out there using AFW on rush flyers and other documents in the chapter as an abbreviation?!?! Dr. Cash 18:07, 9 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I was the person who added it, and I agree that AFW is rather odd. But it was definitely one of the options on a survey at the national convention in 2002 that was published in the Lightbearer. I don't know where it came from originally. Bornyesterday 18:52, August 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * While I don't doubt that it was one of the options on a survey at a convention (I think I remember the survey, too), just because something appears on a survey of possible abbreviations doesn't make it a notable abbreviation. Dr. Cash 19:46, 9 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't remember the exact numbers, and obviously it wasn't scientific, but I think it had nearly the same percentage return on the survey as did APhiQ. Maybe someone should try to dig up the Lightbearer (that is it's name right?) from that convention and see what the results were. That might lend some credence, or remove it entirely from contention. Bornyesterday 20:01, August 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * Called up the National Office yesterday afternoon. Bob Barkhurst (National Archivist) has the copies of the Convention Lightbearers, but the National office doesn't. :(


 * Anyway, talked to Judy Mitchell about the issue. Her quote on AFW was something like "So far out into Left field as to be rediculous". She says APO is used by the majority of chapters, but that APhiO is used by a reasonable sized minority. APhiQ(ue) is used by the chapters and alumni of the chapters at the Historically Black schools (About a dozen active chapters and probably double that inactive).


 * The "abbreviation" that to me is really iffy is "Viking" as this is used as a description of their chapters by the all-male HBCU chapters such as Florida A&M & Texas Southern, don't really know what to do there. Anyway, my two cents worth after talking to the National Office.


 * Proposal: Keep the greek Letters, APO, APhiO & APhiQ . Naraht 11:41, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Randy and Judy on this one. "AFW" just simply doesn't belong. Furthermore, a Google Search for AFW doesn't reveal anything having anything even remotely to do with Alpha Phi Omega, though it does reveal several meanings of the AFW abbreviation. As far as "Viking" goes, I don't consider that an abbreviation at all, and definitely shouldn't be mentioned with the abbreviations at the top. Maybe it could be mentioned with the all-male chapters, but even that doesn't seem to fit, since the other all-male chapters don't use that terminology. I'd probably put "Viking" in the interesting but non-notable category. Dr. Cash 14:51, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm definitely not one to argue with Judy :) *Waves goodbye to the ever mysterious masked-acronym riding off into the sunset* bornyesterday 15:50, August 10, 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with the changes made by bornyesterday. Well, there are **lots** of hits for "Alpha Phi Omega" and AFW in google, but all of them, when you actually look at the page, are actually *greeked* so as to enable the web page writer to include the greek letters in the text. As for "viking", I could see someone writing up a web page for the viking chapters and having an appropriate link from the main Alpha Phi Omega page. Similarly I could see a separate page for APO-Phil.

I have the Convention Lightbearer issues that had the 'survey results' that included AFW. I took it to be a joke. My experience is that APO and APhiO are both commonly used. Most seem to use APO in writing, but APhiO in speaking. (I write APO, but say 'APhiO'.) It seems a regional thing with APO vs. APhiO. As noted, APQ is used amoung HBCU Chapters, and non-Brothers who come from that tradition. --emb021


 * Actually, I have yet to see APQ used, APhiQ seems to be what is used by the chapters at HBCUs. Naraht 01:28, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I meant "APhiQ". Remember what I said about APO/APhiO in writing/speaking. ---emb021


 * I do, but I've never heard APQ used in speech or writing.Naraht 00:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * APQ is usually written "Aye Phi Que". I have had people say it to me.  For more info on APQ, go here: APO-APQ --Emb021 16:39, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup. Not that many google hits for APQ other than the headers in that page. Whether "Aye Phi Que" or AyPhiQue or APhiQ or APhiQue depends on where I've seen it, but Jesse will use APhiQ and he is the closest to a touchstone on those chapters and Alumni I've got. Do you have any contacts with any of the MOTRS groups?
 * Please sign your notes. I really don't have any formal contacts with any APQ or MOTRS groups, other then passing briefly on-line.  --Emb021 20:47, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Largest Fraternity - Bornyesterday's changes.
Is our claim to be the largest Fraternity based on the addition of the approximately half a million brothers in APO-Phil or not? Also, in my opinion, the count of 350 chapters needs to be proceded by the the caveat of in the US, since there are about 150 chapters in APO-Phil, any suggestions here?

Naraht 09:03, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

AFAIK, our claim of being the largest is based on our US numbers. APO-USA has more chapters and more alumni then any other GLO. --emb021


 * I think you have to say Fraternity here, *not* GLO. I took a look at the History Honorary Phi Alpha Theta. They are up to Alpha Lambda Sigma (at least) and I think they letter the same way we do. Naraht 01:31, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeep. I was kinda startled to see my name in a heading. All my edits did was to make the grammar work. Before them, it was a sentence fragment and unclear. The veracity of the information is something that I've been told is true for years. And I've not heard of any other organization claiming the title. - Bornyesterday 19:28, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, if you google for "Largest Fraternity", Sigma Phi Epsilon comes up fairly often. We do have more charters than they do. Not sure on active chapters, active brothers or total brothers. Naraht 00:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Usually when people are speaking of 'largest fraternity', they are only speeking of social/general GLO. All non-socials are left out.  --Emb021 16:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

All male chapters
I added a brief comment about the BoD's ruling about all-male chapters in the appropriate section. I felt that it was proper to at least give some notice of the fact that there are all-male chapters is under heavy scrutiny at this time. It may or may not playout so that they have to go coed, but it seems to me that their current status is questionable, and we need to accurately represent that aspect. Bornyesterday 16:41, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Someone should check whether the Tau Epsilon chapter (Tennessee Technological University) is still all-male (for the appropriate list in this article). As of 1998, it was all-male.
 * →  P . Mac Uidhir  (t)  (c)  16:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * all-male in what sense? AFAIR, TTU was re-charted recently (since 2000), so they are not allowed to be all-male.  If they happened to have lost all their female members, that means they are in trouble with National and need to work to recruite more women.  --Emb021 20:48, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Dillard
I sent to the Section 45 chair and the Region VII director asking whether Dillard is all-male. I'm pretty sure it reactivated post 1986, which means it should be co-ed, but I don't know what's going on there. Naraht 09:09, 12 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Chi Upsilon chapter at Dillard was chartered on May 23, 1971, and rechartered on November 5, 1988, according to the national office database. Since they were rechartered in 1988, after 1976, there is no possible way that they can be classified as an all-male chapter. Dr. Cash 15:14, 12 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It isn't the 1976 agreement that kept chapters from coming back all-male, it is National Board policy that was done in 1986. That having been said, Dillard must have rechartered with both Men and Women. However, I do not know whether there are currently any women who are brothers at Dillard, thus the letters I sent to the Regional Director and Sectional Chair. If I haven't gotten email back from either of them by Monday or Tuesday, I'll call the national Office.Naraht 19:21, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

This is the Region VII Director. I have never received any communication from Naraht. If you have questions about chapters in Region VII, email me at region.7.director@apo.org.

Deletion of Wabash from all-male list.
After talking it over on email with the Regional Director for the region that includes Wabash College and another APhiO Wikipedian, the concensus among the three of us is to delete Wabash from the list of all-male chapters. This is done in co-ordination with changing the description of the table to include only those chapters at co-education institutions. I know that this deletion has happened a couple of times anonymously, but I think this represents a decision that we can work with. Please post here if you have objections to this change. Naraht 18:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no problem with it. Maybe a brief note to indicate that it does exist though? Bornyesterday 21:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thought about it, but not sure. Delta Omicron @ Wabash and Alpha Chi @ MIT (just for an example) are both recruiting from their student bodies without regards to gender. We don't even know if the Delta Omicron chapter by-laws or opinion of their brothers would cause them to pledge and initiate women if the school did go co-ed ten years from now... As for now it doesn't matter. Naraht 13:47, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * An anonymous user, 161.32.90.203, re-added Wabash College to the list of all-male chapters at co-educational campuses list. I reverted this, since Wabash College itself is not a co-educational campus. The IP address is an on-campus IP address belonging to Wabash College. Dr. Cash 19:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Prairie View A&M
At the NVC this past weekend, I had an interesting discussion with the Region VII Director, who talked about Sigma Pi Chapter at Prairie View A&M. She said that the chapter had just initiated their first female member (affectionately referred to as the, "first lady.") and as such is no longer an all-male chapter. Dr. Cash 17:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Fascinating. I know the chapter took on a line of 10 this last spring which is more than they have had in a long time, maybe having their "first lady" is part of it. The school's website doesn't help. One document has Alpha Phi Omega listed as a co-ed group, the other as an all-male group, with no indication of which is earlier. Naraht 20:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Lamar University
Lamar got added back into the list of all-male chapters. I know they have been all-male in the relatively recent past (2002?) Anyone got any idea if they still are? If it is, then we need to rebalance the two columns since the first is now two schools longer.

Deletion of Hardin Simmons
The school Handbook for 2006-2007 lists them as clearly being open to both men and women. Given that, I don't think it's deletion is out of line. I'd like to have more solid proof, but for now... Naraht 01:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

List of Alumni
I didn't assume that those without pages were not worthy, however; those contributors adding the persons name can add the person's page even if its only a stub. My thinking was that this is an article and should contain the list of every member which would eventually overpower. But the heading is notable, and if the person has done something noteworthy, why can't a page be added with such noteworthy info. I have no problem with it reverting back. Ccson 19:25, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I know it is a fine line, but there are some that I count as Notable that don't have enough information to have a page created for that won't be (quite rightly) proposed for deletion. Naraht 15:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The list of brothers is too long and should be categorized like all of the other fraternity/sorority pages. Lesanichelle 04:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Sister Links
For Alpha Phi Omega, it may not work, but I don't think the concept is that bad for Wikipedia... Naraht 14:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I've been adding a few of these templates to a few other articles. They work pretty well. But I don't know about for APO. Maybe we can test it out here? Dr. Cash 05:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Easiest way is simply to click on them. Only one of the links actually gives slightly useful, and that is the commons where the search comes up with big pngs of most of the greek letters. The others range from Nothing (like Wikinews currently and one other) to completely unrelated (like wikibooks, which gives an electrical engineering diagram as first hit. Naraht
 * Yeah, I was testing this out and realized that none of the hits made any sense at all,... oh well. Dr. Cash 17:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Alpha Phi Omega may just be too specific a topic. Doing this on fraternity or H. Roe Bartle may be more effective. Naraht 18:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Current PG List.
So the current list (as of 10 Mar 2006) of 16 PGs is
 * Husson (I,94)
 * Western Carolina (III,79)
 * UAlabama-Huntsville (IV,69)
 * Florida International University (IV,74)
 * College of Mount St. Joseph (V,56)
 * Ohio University Lancaster (V,59)
 * Lake Forest College (VI,51)
 * DePaul University (VI,51)
 * DePauw University (VI,52)
 * Grand Valley State University (VI,53)
 * Lake Superior State University (VI,55)
 * University of Kansas (VIII,34)
 * Lincoln University (VIII,35)
 * Lindenwood University (VIII, 49)
 * University of Alaska Southeast Juneau (XI,8)
 * Western Washington University (XI,8)

Right?


 * According to this list, I am counting 15 Petitioning Groups and 18 Interest Groups. Lake Superior State University is the one that is missing from the official list; I guess Nationals hasn't updated their database, yet. Dr. Cash 21:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * And as Brother stratton commented when he updated the main page from 15 to 16, that LSSU wasn't there yet.

This does lead to the question of how accurate the counts of petitioning groups (and interest groups?) need to be on the page. Do any of the social greeks update more than once a semester? Naraht 21:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

PG Change Current count 17.
 * -Lindenwood U.
 * +SUNY Cortland
 * +The College of New Jersey


 * Miami Dade College-North Campus (IV, 74) has been a PG since April of 2005. I should know, I'm one of their sponsors.  --Emb021 23:09, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand, but I think the only way that we can keep that number on the page is to go from a consistent source, the database generating the pages on the National website. That list shows MDC as an interest group. I'll try to call the national office on Monday to see if I can get them to correct that.Naraht 01:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

PG Change
 * -DePauw (charter)
 * -DePaul (charter)
 * -U of Kansas (no longer recognized)
 * -The College of new Jersey (charter)
 * +Miami Dade (74)
 * +North George Coll & State U. (76)
 * +Shepherd U. (61)

Current Count 16. Current chapter count 364 (including TCNJ) Naraht 02:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

List at beginning of 2006-2007 school year. Current Count 19: (362 active chapters)
 * Eastern Kentucky University (67)
 * Florida International University (74)
 * Grand Valley State University (53)
 * Husson College (94)
 * Interamerican U of Puerto Rico Metropolitan (98)
 * Lake Superior State University (55)
 * Lawrence Technological University (55)
 * Miami-Dade College (74)
 * North Georgia College & State University (76)
 * Ohio University Lancaster (59)
 * Shepherd University (61)
 * SUNY Cortland (89)
 * University of Alabama Huntsville (69)
 * University of Alaska at Anchorage (8)
 * University of Alaska Southeast Juneau (8)
 * University of West Florida (74)
 * Wayne State University (55)
 * Western Carolina Univ (79)
 * Western Washington University (8)

In some ways an odd distribution, one each in regions I-III, none in regions VII-X, three in XI and V, 4 in VI and 6 in IV. And I think about half are within 150 miles of Interstate 75. (Count of IG by region: 1,0,1,1,0,1,2,1,1,0,0) Naraht 02:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure of the chapters that were lost over the summer (taking us from 364 to 362). all have dates of inactivity in the Perpetual Inventory of 2006.
 * Nu Kappa @ Campbell
 * Tau Epsilon @ Tn Tech.
 * Alpha Epsilon Xi @ Lagrange
 * Xi Nu @ Texas Wesleyan

Updated PG list. List as of 16 Nov 2006 Changes to the list at the beginning of the year

Chartered: Grand Valley St. U (53) Husson College (94) U of Alaska Anchorage (8) U of Alaska SE (Juneau) (8)

No longer recognized Florida International U (74) Western Carolina U (79)

Additional Group Oakland University (55)

Current count 14.

According to the APO National Office, Western Carolina was removed because it will recharter Decmber 9,2006. Readding in for now.

--- OK, Current PG list is nine:
 * Interamerican University of Puerto Rico, Metropolitan Campus (I/98)
 * Lake Superior State University (VI/55)
 * Lawrence Technological University (VI/55)
 * Miami-Dade College (IV/74)
 * Oakland University (VI/55)
 * Ohio University - Lancaster (V/59)
 * University of Alabama in Huntsville (IV/69)
 * University of West Florida (IV/74)
 * Western Washington University (XI/8)

and the IG list is eight
 * Bluefield College (III/81)
 * Southern Vermont College (I/94)
 * Saint Anselm College (I/94)
 * Tarrant County College - Southeast (VII/41)
 * University of Denver (VIII/30)
 * University of Illinois at Springfield (VI/47)
 * University of Miami (IV/74)
 * University of Texas at Tyler (VII/41)

Naraht 15:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Add Tarrant County College - Southeast to the PGs & remove from the IGs. Add New Jersey Institute of Technology to the IGs. Naraht 03:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Non-NPOV anon edits.
70.33.133.48  This IP address is in Maine and for someone using Adelphia Communications

209.71.38.36  This IP address is for someone using the Albert Einstein Healthcare Network, which is based in Philadelphia.

70.33.129.187 This IP address is in Maine and for someone using Adelphia Communications

130.111.175.232 This IP address is in the Wireless Network at University of Maine in Orono.

130.111.178.24 This IP address is in the Network at University of Maine in Orono.

List contributed to by Naraht

Mark Dindo S. Gamboa
This individual was recently added/removed from the list. Now, if he's not actually an honorary member, that's good. But if he did become a national honorary member, there's gotta be something to him, right? Does anyone know his story? Being the "first chief scout executive" of the BS-philippines, as he was originally added, sounds like a much bigger deal than being the first student at a school (next edit) or simply a student at a school (next edit). As this addition and subsequent edits were all done by the same IP address, I'm even more confused. Perhaps, since they were the only edits by this IP, it was simply a new user test? I didn't find anything on google about a "mark gamboa," for what it's worth. — vijay 12:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I look at the ultimate result. If you look at the first edit, it is an exact copy of Brother West just above him, with the change of name and country. He then changed other things about it until he got what he wanted. Maybe I'm too protective of the page, but anything that I don't understand that isn't properly alphabetized and ends up non-noteworthy gets tossed. Besides, if you look over at BS-Philippines, I didn't see that name in the original founders there. My guess is vandalism. Naraht 16:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I didn't even notice the copy/paste. Yeah, vandal. Please, be protective! Vandals suck. — vijay 05:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem, it is in my watchlist and I look at every change. Though there are some people who do get assumptions of being correct like mastratron. (The Region VI director).

User Box
I've created from the phi kappa theta user template. There are three places where colors are used, bordering the image, around the text part of the box and the "This user is". I have used yellow, blue and blue respectively, but other combinations may be better. Naraht 14:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Alpha Phi Alpha article
Just as an FYI, the Alpha Phi Alpha article is today's featured article for July 25, 2006. Reviewing it might offer some of our editors some guidelines on how to improve the APO article. Dr. Cash 01:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed, though I'm not sure who exactly counts as our editors... I'm in the group, I guess, but no really official list... Naraht 12:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, there's no 'official' list. But I suppose there are a small group of dedicated people that have the page on their personal watch list and visit the talk page periodically,... Dr. Cash 16:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The majority of repeat editors (other than vandals) seem to be the three of us. Bornyesterday 16:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There is software that will go through a page and count all of the editors. The non-anonymous editors with more than three edits in order of number of edits is Naraht, Derek.cashman, Rmhermen, Bornyesterday, emb021 & mastratton. Naraht 19:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to try to duplicate the Alpha Phi Alpha General President template over the next week. What title do people like "Alpha Phi Omega National President" or "Alpha Phi Omega (USA) National President"? (Or something else). Naraht 19:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was bored waiting for some stuff to come up at work. Naraht 20:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that's cool! Maybe have another template that says, "Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines) National President." Make that one with a blue border instead of yellow,... ;-) Dr. Cash 00:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * OK... Though I will say that this one was *much* tougher to nail down. Eventually found a list of who was elected at each convention up until 1999 (with midterm substitutions) and had to go looking all over the web for the most recent 3(elected in 2001,2003 and 2005) Naraht 03:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Lists of notable alumni
While the lists of notable alumni & honorary members are notable, they are getting a bit long, to the point where a significant amount of the article about Alpha Phi Omega is just a list of notable alumni & honorary members. In accordance with Wikipedia's list guidelines, it might be a good idea to separate these out into a separate article or two, linked via a 'see also' section. Any thoughts? Dr. Cash 18:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It is probably a good idea, as is splitting the list by area of notability. I finally figured out the subconcious (sp?) reason why I haven't been in favor of in the past. I'd rather keep the list of the all-male chapters as far from the top of the article as possible. Hopefully if we add enough history, it won't be as far up... BTW, Since the National Office has given verbal carte blance for the National History book to be used for any fraternity related purpose, I think we can copy it without a problem. Naraht 19:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, that's funny! The second thing I was going to bring up after looking at the Alpha Phi Alpha article was to add a 'history' subsection and more details about our history,... ;-) Of course, this will probably eventually lead to a 'History of Alpha Phi Omega' subarticle as well, but that's fine, I guess,... Dr. Cash 21:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I have moved the notable alumni & honorary members to List of Notable Alpha Phi Omega Members, which is linked from this article in the new 'see also' section. I also merged the ICAPO & Philippines sections into the 'organization' section, since it really does deal with the organization of APO at the international level. So this should make that section a bit less U.S.-centric, as well as adding a bit of a 'buffer' between the top of the article and the all-male chapters section,... ;-) Dr. Cash 21:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Cool. What I *want* is someone (Preferably an APO-Phil brother) to create an APO-Phil page... Naraht 11:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Arvin Christian P. Luna?

 * Arvin Christian P.Luna (Alpha Chi-Honorary), Founder of the Manila, Philippines based brotherhood, A.C.E.S. c.2000

This was added in late July 2006 by a non-registered user. Any idea who this is? Only other mention I can find is where the name was added to the disambiguation list for Luna (Which I am also reverting). (unsigned comment left by Naraht -oops)


 * Google gives nothing on any combination of the parts of that name. Bornyesterday 14:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Add Cyril Wecht ?
Dr. Cyril Wecht is an alumnus of Beta chapter at U of Pittsburgh. Could people take a look at his page and at and let me know if we should add him to the Notable Alumni list? Naraht 14:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Confirmed as member; Beta Chapter, University of Pittsburgh. Initiated on January 10, 1951. Chapter membership number 181.
 * As far as notability, I guess it's debatable. Not sure if he's notable enough to list on apo.org, but he does have a wiki-article, and I could see adding an entry on this page, possibly, considering the notability of some others listed. Dr. Cash 17:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * My concern is less about him being famous and more about him possibly being infamous... In some ways doesn't appear to be a role model, if you know what I mean. Naraht 17:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sort of like some of the politicians listed -- Clinton had an affair. And J. Edgar Hoover is listed as an honorary brother. Besides, not listing a brother because they are "less than upstanding" could be considered as violating NPOV by omission. Bornyesterday 01:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I give up. (and my wife agrees with both of you). I'll add him. Naraht 13:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Robert Gates
I've added the new Secretary of Defense nominee, Robert Gates, to the list of notable alumni. In addition to being the nominee, he's also the President of Texas A&M University and the former director of the CIA, both of which are notable for being added to the list. Dr. Cash 17:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd sent the news articles that I'd seen that in to the National Office, but they didn't confirm until after you put it up. I'd count each of the three (Dir of CIA, Texas A&M Pres and nomination as SecDef) as being good enough on their own to add him to the list. Naraht 18:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)