Talk:Altai Mountains

Altai or Altay
The word "Altai" actually is a Turkic word meaning "Red Mountain". In modern Turkish (i.e. spoken in Turkish Republic), it is pronounced as "Aldag", though "Altai" is used as the private name for this region. "Altaylar" is used in Turkish as "Red Mountains" and is the real name for this region. This is reasonable, as Turkic folks predominate in this region from the earliest times in history.


 * This is bogus reasoning - the region (not the mountains) is already well-known in English as "Altai". We only use untranslated names when there is not an existing English version. Stan 02:24, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

If both are equivalent that's fine, but we probably should stick to just using one when naming articles and the such. Currently Altai seems to be the more common of the two as far as naming articles is concerned, so maybe this one should be renamed.

Or am I missing some distinction between the two names? --Moritz 21:45, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

No, you are correct, Altai is the English version and the correct transliteration from Russian. If there are people who understand the region's name as "Altay" we can include a link from the "Altay" page to "Altai." this is what wikipedia often does in the case there are two accepted spellings.

-- Aaron Xavier —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.181.115.76 (talk) 19:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

"Altay" means "Gold Mountain" < Altun(Gold) - Tag (Mountain), in Chinese Jin Shan Jin(Gold)- Shan(Mountain) Böri (talk) 16:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Glaciers
The article mentions glaciers that are "30 square kilometeres in aggregate area". Is that the situation in 1911? Given the Retreat of glaciers since 1850, it seems likely that it is less now. Does it make sense at all to include the glacier situation from 1911 in the article? I added a note, but perhaps the fact should be removed alltogether. Is there a template that is suitable to add here (something like "needs updating")? --Gerrit CUTEDH 09:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

There's always the "as of yyyy" thing. See As of for more information. ~user:orngjce223how am I typing? 18:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Not verified
The text is cut'n'pasted from EB1911, which seems to contain some bullshit. I detected this trying to write the Sailughem Mountains article. It turns out that EB191 seriously contradicts here to Great Soviet Encyclopedia and some tourist texts.

Skitalets.ru
from skitalets: Горная страна Алтай лежит на юге Сибири между 48° и 56° северной широты и тесно смыкается с лежащими к востоку горными кряжами Кузнецкого Алатау, Салаира, Западного Саяна, Танну-Ола и Монгольского Алтая. Алтай связан с ними и по орографии и по структуре, поэтому четкую границу здесь провести трудно. На юге и юго-востоке Горный Алтай соединяется с Монгольским Алтаем через пограничный массив Табын-Богдо-Ола и отходящие от него хребты Южно-Алтайский, Сайлюгем и Чихачёва. Юго-западные окраины Алтая протягиваются до котловины озера Зайсан. К северу Алтай резко, уступами, низвергается к Западно-Сибирской равнине, в западные степи проникает веером невысоких хребтов.

GSE
Сайлюгем, горный хребет Юго-Восточного Алтая, на границе Горно-Алтайской АО РСФСР и МНР. Длина 130 км. Высота до 3500 м. Водораздел между истоками рр. Аргут и Чуя (бассейн р. Оби) и реками бассейна р. Кобдо. Сложен известковистыми песчаниками, глинистыми сланцами, лавами и туфами. В высокогорьях преобладают лишайниковые и каменистые тундры, на южных склонах ниже 2600 м появляются участки со степной растительностью на горных каштановых почвах.

Contradiction
Russian sources say thay Sailughem is southern appendage, while EB 1911 says it is Northern. My guess guess is that EB describes what Russian texts call Mongolian Altai.

I will try to figure out WTF (and you may try as well). `'mikka 00:20, 12 May 2007 (UTC) P.S. Колыванский хребет / Горная Колывань is somethine else as well. `'mikka 00:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have the file of a geologic map that unfortunately I can't find the online source for anymore. It shows the Saylyugem range along the border between the Bayan-Ölgii Province of Mongolia and Russia, seperating the Mongolian from the Russian Altai. The incorrect location isn't in the original EB, which actually calls it "the backbone of the region". The text has been rearranged heavily here, which must have introduced the error. Btw: The article Sailughem Mountains should be renamed to Saylyugem Mountains according to WP:RUS --Latebird 09:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Another contradiction is Mount Belukha, which is way higher than 3,500 m stated as max for Saylughem in Soviet Encyclopedia. `'mikka 18:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Sailukhem (Sailukymi / Sailukemi) Altai
The word is without no doubt of Finno Ugrian origin, as the Russian version Kolyvan Altai, itself derived from ancient Baltic Finnic Kaleva which, in fact, was the name of mythologic hero in Finno Ugrian mythology and even appears in Kalevala and Kalevpoeg. Khem might be a Turkonized version of Finno Ugrian Kymi and Kemi / Kem, a name for big river (stream). Please compare with Ulug-Khem, Biy-Khem, Ka-Khem, Balyktuk-Khem, and Kizil-Khem.

According to Professor Johannes Gabriel Granö 1882-1956, a Finnish geographer who researched Altai area in 1906-1916, the local Kazakh population in Chinese Empire (Mongolia) and Imperial Russia (Turkestan divided Altai to White Altai, Blue Altai, and Black Altai. J.G.Granö used also heard Finno Ugrian word Iki-Altai (Etern-Altai) in his classic Altai, Volumes 1 & 2 WSOY, Porvoo 1919-1921. He made ten research expeditions to the Altai and took more than 1.000 photographs, all rareties today, and preserved in Helsinki SKS (Suomalaisen Kirjallisuuden Seura) Archive. This collection is commonly not known at all outside Finland, Estonia and Sweden. His book Altai is now being transliterated into Russian language but his style of using Finnish language makes it impossible to transliterate it in English language without loss of the original meaning of much of the text.

One glacier in High Altai was named after J.G.Granö as Granö Glacier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.191.15 (talk) 18:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC) Altay Mountains → Altai Mountains

The more common English use seems to be Altai. See also this discussion, or Category:Altai. Yaan (talk) 18:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. Per WP:RUS, you are required to show proof that the spelling you are proposing to move the article to is more common in English.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * google scholar hits:


 * "altai range": 221
 * "altay range": 40
 * "altai mountains": 3040
 * "altay mountains": 576


 * merriam webster has "Altai", Encyclopedia Britannica Online has Altai Mountains . Yaan (talk) 19:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Good enough for me. Support.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I suspect that the current spelling was chosen based on WP:RUS, because most of it is located in Russia. In contrast, WP:MON says "Altai". In either case, given the common English use, it makes sense to rename. --Latebird (talk) 05:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:RUS was amended since then to give more preference to established English usage when such usage exists and can be documented.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. This is the only spelling I've ever seen. – Axman (☏) 15:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Rename related articles?
Now that this one has been changed to Altai, what about Altay people, Altay language, and several others, including the DAB page Altay? I'm not sure if the same logic applies to all of them, just to those based in Russia, or only a few. I guess they'll have to be addressed individually, but I just wanted to make sure that they're not accidentally forgotten. Yaan, that's your cue! ;-) --Latebird (talk) 05:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Dab pages for Russian names should comply with WP:RUS (which means "Altay", not "Altai"), but since Altay contains not only Russian, but also other names, it makes sense to make an exception. The rest of the Russia-related Altay articles should have something on their talk pages showing that the i-spelling is indeed more common in English (this, again, is per WP:RUS).  In other words, as Latebird said, all of them will need to be looked at individually, with separate move requests.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Uch-Sumer
I've inserted the another name for Belukha: Uch-Sumer. See article in: http://eng.altai-republic.ru/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=57&page=1 Chonanh (talk) 04:19, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The second highest mountain of Russia - Belukha is situated nearly in the centre of the biggest continent-Eurasia, practically at the same distance from all oceans - from the Arctic Ocean in the north, the Indian Ocean in the south, the Atlantic Ocean in the west and the Pacific Ocean in the east. Its absolute height is 4506 m, and geographical co-ordinates are 49° 50' NL and 86° 45' EL. A white iced cap covers it and that might explain the origin a Russian name Belukha ("white"). Altaians call it Kadyn Bazhy which means "The Top of the Katun River" or Uch-Airy-"Three Forks". But most often it is called Uch-Sumer "Three Tops" with a special semantic meaning. This is a sacred mountain, an object of special reverence for the indigenous population of the Altai. Uch - Sumer - "Three Tops" is represented on the coat of arms of the Altai Republic.

What does it mean by a "cultural enigma"?
The Altai Mountains have been identified as being the point of origin of a cultural enigma termed the Seima-Turbino Phenomenon[5] which arose during the Bronze Age around the start of the 2nd millennium BC and led to a rapid and massive migration of peoples from the region into distant parts of Europe and Asia. What exactly does this mean? What is the "enigma"? The Seima-Turbino Phenomenon article doesn't help. Wardog (talk) 15:26, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Jin Shan
in Chinese. Böri (talk) 10:10, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

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