Talk:Altbier/Archive 1

Translation
A translation of the song here would be a nice addition if anyone is capable of producing one. Deleuze 10:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

International altbiers
Altbiers are made outside Germany. This is verifiable. Here's the thing -- it is not NPOV to point that out, and I don't see how it could be. The question is, is it made in any other country than the US? A UK alt would be worthy of mention as well. Haikupoet 23:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you see no difference between "altbier" and "in the style of altbier"? I do. In this article, as well as many, many others about foreign beers, the article often begins: "this is the beer of xxx. It is yyyy. In the US...."). I suggest you read this to understand my objection to this habit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Anglo-American_focus Mikebe 07:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC) If you've read the FAQ link I posted, I don't understand why you still have a question. On your other point, I think we tend to look at this differently: I am not so much concerned with the law as with the impression it gives, especially among readers who have come here with little knowledge to begin with. If they see that an alt, for example, is brewed primarily in a certain region in Germany, but then see equal weight given to an "alt" brewed in the US, they can perhaps come to the logical conclusion that the two are essentially the same and why bother coming to Germany (where, as you probably know, it is served by gravity directly from casks, not from bottles) when they can just run down to the local beer emporium and pick up a bottle? That, I contend, is seriously misinforming the reader.
 * I think we maybe need a third-party mediator here. How exactly would one go about this? And incidentally, I don't know that there is always a meaningful difference -- if a beer is made in Vermont or Alaska according to a Düsseldorf recipe, using a known altbier yeast, is it not an altbier? The only beer I can think of where that distinction applies is Kölsch, which name is legally protected under German law and international treaty. Haikupoet 08:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Mind, I am not saying that the American alt is a bad beer, just that it is different. And I would say the same for any beer brewed outside the specific region because, as you know, local water plays a major role in the taste of a beer. Mikebe 09:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

There has been a long and thorough discussion of this topic on the beer project page. I brought it up there for two reasons: 1. the people who read that page are the people who contribute to the beer project and 2. this was not an issue specifically about altbier, but an issue that affects all non-US beer pages. We have reached a consensus: we will add to the article a sentence (or more) saying that this type of beer is brewed in other countries and attempt to list all those countries and we will replace the bjcp style links with a translation of a guide written and published by the German Brewers Association (Deutscher Brauer Bund). The majority of the editors feel that the bjcp is unreliable. I assume you are not pleased to read this, however, this is the consensus of the beer contributors. Mikebe 09:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, you assume incorrectly. While I still think the BJCP guidelines should be included, the DBB guidelines should take primacy. I think that's a perfectly fair compromise. Haikupoet 20:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm happy to hear that. As I said, the consensus is that the bjcp is unreliable. I fully agree with that consensus. This is an encyclopedia and accurate information is key. Including bjcp guidelines, compromise or not, runs counter to this goal. Mikebe 21:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I hope the latest change is acceptable. I've put information on Dutch and US altbiers in one paragraph (separate from German examples) at the end of the regional section and included information on example brands from the US to complement the Dutch example. One question I do have though -- the book I have on Altbier history and recipes claims that Grolsch Amber is a Dutch altbier as well. Is this in fact true? Because if so I'd like to include it as another example brand. Haikupoet 00:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all, I want to tell you that I appreciate the tone of your message. It is much better than some of your fellow American homebrewers. OK, now to your questions. First of all, I can find no evidence that Grolsch Amber Ale is anything other than a special beer made for the American market. I also see no evidence that it is an alt, so I will remove it. Now, the consensus on examples is that they should be "notable", which, AFAIK, is also the policy of WP. I would also point out the inconsistency of what you have written: "most notably in the Netherlands and the United States" and then "in the US, Alt style beer is something of a rarity". You have also left out the other countries that brew altbier. In general, we will list the beer below and not in the main body of the article. Since I see no evidence that the American beers you named are notable, I will remove them. I hope, from your message, that you are genuinely interested in helping. I am very glad to hear that. However, please keep in mind what has been agreed. Thanks. Mikebe 10:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Haikupoet, if you have a book that calls Grolsch Amber an alt, please cite it as a the source. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 15:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Certainly. Classic Beer Styles Series:Altbier by Horst Dornbusch, Brewers Publications. I believe Dornbusch is actually from Düsseldorf, and has his own brand of altbier made in Massachusetts. Haikupoet 15:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That seems like as reliable as source as we are likely to find. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 16:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * At least in English. I've actually got about 3/4 of the series -- they vary wildly in style. The Altbier book is one of the better ones, but I wouldn't cite the Stout book unless it was for a scholarly paper -- way too technical for anyone who doesn't work at Anheuser-Busch. For the most part, though, they're written for both professional and amateur audiences. (Incidentally, I think the BYO article is quite relevant as it gives a description of the process involved in making alt.) Haikupoet 16:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't back off from citing technical sources, just don't cite them in technical language, and don't necessarily recommend them for the general reader for further information. KP Botany 14:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * As I said, this beer is either only made for the US market or not made anymore at all. It is not listed on the company's web site, which lists their other beers. And the book you cited hasn't be updated since 1998 (according to the author's website). This does not appear to be at all reliable. Mikebe 16:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting. As for the date of the book, I have to agree with you, but only as concerns the brand examples. Recipe/style/history, on the other hand... Haikupoet 01:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment
I have posted an RfC here in hopes of getting third-party comments to build a consensus on the issue of American sources and examples. I propose that all involved in this current content dispute stand down until there has been a significant number of third party opinions. Haikupoet 01:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I am the primary other party here. While I think Haikupoet framed the RFC in an even-handed manner, I believe that the key element of the dispute is missing. The issue is not solely whether US POV is valid or not, it is that US POV is the only one given (aside from the local) despite the fact that other countries are also involved in the same activity. Mikebe 09:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Then isn't the solution simply to add other sources, rather than delete US sources? If this really is the issue, then please settle it by beefing this article up with additional sources.  Beer is topical, and what a Wikipedia should be a great place to come for accurate and current information.  Maybe add a "this article needs expanded tag," also add a references section to the bottom so the single reference is spelled out.  While there are only US sources, add a note that there are only US sources, I believe there is even a tag for that, then remove it when the article is more international.


 * Is the song included in this under copyright?


 * There is a problem with reading beer articles before breakfast, I see. KP Botany 15:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Adambier
Regarding the recent mention of Adambier:


 * Brief explanation of the style, with link to a recipe
 * review of an attempt at an Adambier
 * Short history of Dortmunder beer, with reference to Adambier as made at the end of the 19th century

I'm not sure this belongs in the Altbier article, as from what little I can determine it seems to be more a cousin of the alt family than a member per se. It does seem to be a real style invented in Dortmund, an ale that underwent a very long lactic fermentation process to take on a bit of sour character (one of the links above compares it to Berliner weisse in that regard). Commercial examples seem to be few and far between, and the only one that seems to be readily verifiable is the American example in the second link. I think maybe a separate article? (This would be a great time to pull out some European sources on the subject, Mikebe and Patto1ro...) Haikupoet 07:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's the nicest thing anybody has said to me for quite a while here (sadly, I'm being quite serious). Unfortunately, Ron has already left. You can thank your colleague for that. And for myself, I'm about five minutes away from leaving (you can thank the same person). It's one thing to have your work not appreciated, but it's quite another thing being told that your reality isn't welcome here. Good luck to you. Mikebe 16:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I do have more original source material on Adambier. It's a very intereszting style. But, I won't be sharing it. I really don't see why I should after all the insults and accusations that have been thrown at me. Patto1ro 16:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That's okay, Wikipedia doesn't want it to be original research anyhow. If you have something you don't want to share, in fact, you don't even have to mention it, just don't share it.  There are plenty of other sources available.  KP Botany 17:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * So exactly which sources do you have on Adambier? By "original sources" I mean pre WW I German books. Your comments only confirm why I should keep this information for a more appreciative audience. Patto1ro 22:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, yes, I'm sure you really do have the valuable information.  KP Botany 00:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Patto1ro: What's the point of being childish about it? As has been explained, the issue is not any particular perspective, but the fact that some editors are being absolutist about theirs. Haikupoet 02:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry. I was having a bad day. You can find more on Adambier here:


 * "Jahrbuch der Versuchs- und Lehranstalt für Brauerei in Berlin, 1911", page 522
 * "American Handy Book of the Brewing, Malting and Auxiliary Trades", Wahl & Henius, 1902, page 829
 * "Zeitschrift für das gesammte Brauwesen 1890" Patto1ro 22:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hm. I can't read German, unfortunately, but I wonder if I can track down the Wahl and Henius book somewhere. Hopefully online -- I suspect it would be quite expensive in a used/antiquarian bookstore... Haikupoet 02:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem, we all have bad days. The important thing is to find some compromise on this article so that it is useful for Wikipedia users. If the information is useful and not found other than in German, someone can translate it.  But frankly, American Handy Book of the Brewing, Malting and Auxiliary Trades is a rather well known source for modern brewers.  I wonder if it's online or available in a reprint or at a major library at a university or through inter-library loan? If even I've heard of it, it might be something special.  KP Botany 00:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think there's a copy at hbd.org. I did a google for "Wahl and Henius" and that's what came up, though their copy isn't searchable so I didn't really know where to begin. I haven't checked Gutenberg yet though -- a copy in their text format would be easier to work with for our purposes. Haikupoet 01:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course, I hope you both realise that Patto1ro has copies of all the books and either he or I could translate the German. Are we refusing to do this because we are being childish? No, we are doing this because our views of European beer (and, I might add, we are both European) are treated with such disrespect by several of the editors here, and, I should add, we were personally treated with disrespect as well. You might thank those responsible for the disrespect for putting you in this situation, which would be much more constructive than calling us "childish." Mikebe 09:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Right now, though, Patto1ro has taken a stance indicating he/she is the one on the board willing to take some responsibility for his/her behaviour and move on to a more creative atmosphere--not acting the least bit childish. If you don't wish to contribute to the article, there is nothing anyone can do, or should even try, to compel you to do so.  It's time to honor Patto1ro's maturity in taking the initiative by offering the first white flag, by working, with those who wish to contribute, to find a way this article can be usable, informative, and accurate.   KP Botany 02:55, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

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"Old beer"
What does "Old beer" mean here? Each beer is old (i.e. longer production process) or that the form and recipe of this type of beer is ancient? Andy Dingley (talk) 01:28, 17 February 2014 (UTC)


 * This is an explanation: https://byo.com/stories/item/123-altbier-style-of-the-month

I'm planning to have a go at making one in a couple of months as its probably the most appealing German style from the point of view of a British ale fan. Devils In Skirts! (talk) 19:26, 17 February 2014 (UTC)