Talk:Alter ego/Archive 1

Common mispelling
Is "common misspelling" really necessary? I don't think many people looking for information on a religious object would accidentally wind up at "alter ego". -Joshuapaquin 01:08, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
 * UPDATE: Someone fixed it.  Thanks.  -Joshuapaquin 01:24, 4 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I agreed with you Josh. Alter is quite rightly not listed as common misspelling of altar at either Wikipedia:List of common misspellings or List of common misspellings in English, so I deleted the ref to it. Moriori 01:27, May 4, 2004 (UTC)

Etymology
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=alter%20ego

more entries
what about verbal and kaiser soze from usual suspects?

Secret Identities
Most of these entries are "secret identities" rather than alter egos. The lists need an enema. Asok of C Block 05:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Uh, yeah...
"Bill Bailey's alter ego is Axl Rose." - oh?

Also, is it really necessary to have all those comic-book secret identities listed (Batman, Superman, Hulk, Thor, etc)? The "fictional alter-egos" list is boring and uninspired as it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.158.222.67 (talk) 20:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

Incorrect origin
This term has been in use since early medieval times, referring to the king's principal minister, who would act as his representative and viceroy when he was absent. He was also known as a justicar. 144.32.196.5 14:26, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Which is which?
Since, just for instance, Clark Kent was first and is the "real" human, why is he listed as Superman's alter ego, when the Clark personality is dominant?


 * The list has been removed anyway. However, you are right. Anybody who watched Kill Bill Vol 2 will understand. --rjcuk 13:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Examples
I recently added some examples; is that okay to you? -The Bold Guy- 11:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that adding some examples such as the first-ever ones is okay, as long as the whole list isn't on the page. But really I think it might be an idea to make a page like "Alter-egos in fiction" or "List of...", just like Electromagnetic pulse in fiction. It would also be an idea to do the same thing for "Deus Ex Machina". Oh wait. The one for DEM is this: Talk:Deus ex machina/List of deus ex machina examples. Anyone else agree? --rjcuk 14:20, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've copied the list to Talk:Alter ego/List of alter ego examples. Hopefully it won't get deleted. --rjcuk 21:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Would Max Headroom count as an alter ego of Edison Carter? WAVY 10 17:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

List of alter egos in fiction
I've removed this huge list because real life" which seems to be very much more of the same thing (most if not all of the so-called "real life" examples seemed to be drawn from entertainment, or even fiction). --Tony Sidaway 19:43, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's back but don't worry, I'll remove it. -- MrDrak 20:31, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

WAH???
"Bill Bailey’s alter ego is Axl Rose. "

What on earth??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.65.151 (talk) 20:54, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Cut down the list
I'm after cutting down the lists to five examples from fiction, and five from reality. Feel free to change the ones I picked, as it was mostly arbitrary, but don't add more without removing some. Mackha (talk) 15:59, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Psychopath vs. Sociopath?
The article refers to the example of the Mr. Hyde alter ego character (as opposed to the Dr. Jekyll character) as being a psychopath. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Hyde actually represents more of a sociopathic personality. I could be wrong there; but this seems to be the case. The difference would rest on whether the alter ego was operating in a delusional state of reality or not -- vs. simply being an amoral monster who understands the reality all too well.

Pazouzou (talk) 22:23, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

To some people sociopath means the same as psychopath, to others it means a variety of psychopath. "Psychopath" is a more clearly defined word than "sociopath". --Penbat (talk) 10:53, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Lists
I think we could do without the lists of alter egos. They are to long, and clash with What Wikipedia Is Not.--Orthologist 17:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Aw. I enjoyed reading that. I kept the link for anybody who wants to read them: I think that although that list does conflict with WP:NOT, it should be archived somewhere, maybe here. For the time being people can use that link to get to it. --rjcuk 13:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I do not enjoy reading these lists - but anyway, wikipedia doesn't care for our enjoyment. I propose a new article: Lists of alter ego's. So everybody enjoying lists can make them endlessly long, and we others can have an article that is not completely dominated by lists. So what do you all say about this idea?  Lova Falk     talk   10:13, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I dont think it is worth a new article but they are just examples so i think they should be trimmed to a max of 10, say, in each of the 2 categories.--Penbat (talk) 10:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * But how would you decide on which ten are the most notable??? Just imagine the conflicts. And then somebody comes along who things this max-10 rule is arbitrary and starts adding to the list, and there we go again...  Lova Falk     talk   11:02, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

The lists have gotten out of control. An alter ego is NOT a stage name or character person plays on a TV show. I"m deleting them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.39.234.222 (talk) 19:00, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * ClueBot mistakenly reverted your trimming, probably because you are from an IP address. I tried, so hopefully that will stick. All I did to choose was cut large swathes, and pick the most well known of those left. And make sure that the fiction ones weren't all superheroes, I also added comments asking people not to add more without removing some, and changed the heading to examples so people don't feel the need to. Mackha (talk) 15:58, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Comic book usage
This section discusses "pre-crisis" and "post-crisis" comics. Don't these refer to only DC comics (The Crisis_on_Infinite_Earths)? The title and the content don't seem to match. Nosnevel (talk) 20:42, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Definition and Examples
There are many problems with this article, and the first one can be found in the first sentence, which gives the first of three definitions given for alter ego. It reads:

"An alter-ego (Latin, 'the other I') is a second self, a second personality or persona within a person, who is often oblivious to the persona's actions."

A few questions and comments:

(1) What justification is there for the claim, "who is often oblivious to the persona's actions"? It's supported not at all by the sections which follow the table of contents but is weak and wishywashy in contrast to the second sentence where it reads that the term "was coined...when dissociative identity disorder was first discovered". The explanation of DID at Wikipedia reads that "the diagnosis [of DID] requires that at least two personalities routinely take control of the individual's behavior with an associated memory loss that goes beyond normal forgetfulness. This concept of necessary ignorance is abandoned after the first paragraph. The example of Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde doesn't support it, for Jekyll was aware of Hyde's antics.

If the clause, "who is often oblivious...", is warranted, there needs to be appropriate citation of documented evidence. Is such evidence found in the book, Handbook of Psychology, by Weiner and Freedheim? In the meantime, a less sweeping generalization is called for. So the first sentence ought to conclude as follows: "...who is not necessarily oblivious to the persona's actions." The second sentence, concering DID, should be moved to a new section about the eytmology of the term; this way the psychological meaning of alter ego won't be pigeonholed into its usage for a single disorder.

(2) Popular usage of the term, alter ego, indicates one of two concepts: (a) a second self, and (b) one of two close friends or acquaintances, each of whom is frequently or always encountered in public with the other. The latter is ignored completely in the article and not found at the disambiguation page.

(3) Why include ? How exactly does it tend to elaborate upon all three of the defenitions, esp. the first? I think it would be more appropriate in a section that clarifies the psychological usage of the term, if not removed from the article. At present, it adds nothing substantial, and I suspect that it was included merely for entertainment, as the image and title suggests. See http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costellazioni_familiari_e_sistemiche.

(4) Most of the examples given are of persons, real or imaginary, who are not unaware of their second selves. Overall, the article places a heavy emphasis upon entertainers, which is consistent with the third definition, not the first.

(5) In the section "Performing Arts Usage" it's claimed that "Eminem, Nicki Minaj and T.I." have each used an alter ego "to explore divisions in their personalities". But why write "explore"? The claim is pretentious, to say the least. Each of these three persons is an entertainer and in the business of self-promotion. So, is there any justification for doubting that the alter ego of each is not entirely deliberate? A better statement would be "to develop divisions in their personalities" or, even less strongly, "to pretend that there are divisions in their personalities". Remember, these are entertainers, er, performing artists.

(6) Sometimes the term is italicized and sometimes not. Further, it's been hyphenated. But why hyphenate? Italicization is appropriate for a foreign phrase used in English, but hyphenation is not for a term formed from two independent words in Latin and, furthermore, which has two words that are in common usage independent of the other among English speakers.

For the time being I'll leave the article as it is except for removing the hyphens and making the italicization consistent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.54.39 (talk) 16:14, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I have edited the lede to address the point made in (1).


 * Point (2) should not have any bearing on the article because an alter ego as inseparable friend is a distinct definition (whereas although the different definitions covered here are all related to the idea of personalities sharing a person or people sharing a personality). The definition of alter egos as best friends probably doesn't merit an article.


 * (3) the picture is fanciful, but I think it's fine for now because it illustrates an imagined encounter with one's alter ego.


 * (4) covers the same point as (1), addressed by editing the lede, and adds a valid point that more content is needed to address the literary side of this topic.


 * (5) I disagree with this point, which seems to take a very negative POV toward artists. "Develop" and "pretend" would both change the meaning of this sentence to something that is not true. You may find it pretentious, but artists routinely discuss "exploring" different sides of their personalities through their art, and it is not the place of Wikipedia to judge them one way or the other.


 * (6) This article receives very little attention, and it is a lot easier to complain about flaws than to fix them, so thank you for taking the time to fix the consistency problems. Feeeshboy (talk) 18:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

American McGee's Alice and Alice:Madness Returns
Wouldn't the way the character Alice is in "American McGee's Alice", and it's sequel "Alice: Madness Returns" be considered as an Alter ego? I was just wondering because in the real world, she has dirty, torn, colorless street clothes plus her hair is a mess; and then when she goes to Wonderland, she has a dress on long, perfect hair. Wouldn't that be a somewhat alter-ego of what she wishes to be? - CStern13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.17.115.170 (talk) 05:28, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Article needs to be completed
It is obvious that this article is not complete. This article needs more information. I will contribute to cleaning up and finishing this article. Help will be appreciated. Tj1224 (talk) 21:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I am willing to help where needed. What are the biggest issues that need to be taken of?MrNiceGuy1113 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:39, 24 April 2012 (UTC).

Alter Ego vs. Secret Identity
What difference, if any, is there between secret identity and alter ego? --Dr Archeville 19:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A secret identity is always an alter ego, but an alter ego isn't always secret. spazure  (contribs) 00:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Could it be argued that Dracula has an alter ego? I have tried to look up some information but it gives more alter egos for Van Helsing than Dracula.  Who Dracula really is and his persona to humans is quite different if you ask me.MrNiceGuy1113 (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 18:25, 24 April 2012 (UTC).

Further Information
It would be very good to have some further information on the real life psychological phenomenon of the Alter ego, its causes and background.


 * Hmm. You might want to read up on Id, ego, and super-ego. --rjcuk 13:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I added some information on the real life psychology of an alter ego. Maybe it can be a start to what you need to finish.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrNiceGuy1113 (talk • contribs) 18:18, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

and sexy things — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.230.117.48 (talk) 17:14, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

List is terrible
The section "Real people with alter ego(s)" is really bad. It mixes in very distinct ideas like stage name, nicknames, and character names into that of "alter ego". I think requiring reliable sources to confirm entries is going to have to be enforced here. And those sources will need to be using "alter ego" is the real sense of the word, not the pop, "lets invent as many I can to seem creative"/"I heard about Maria Carry and Beyonce having one I want one too" Nikki Minaj way. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:28, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

work in progress
I'm in the process of adding content to this article. I'm "being bold" and creating a lot of content that will probably require editing and will definitely require references, so feel free to weigh in or fix any errors I might make along the way. I've added a section on comic book alter egos, and am about to start working on a section on performing artists (musicians, comic actors, and professional wrestlers). Any other ideas for sections? With some solid content in place, we can justify cutting out the lists that have taken over this article. Feeeshboy (talk) 19:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I also see use for a section on authors' use of alter egos. Between that and the material I've already added, I think I've covered every category of alter ego from the lists at the bottom of the page. I am now deleting these lists, as they should be obsolete (except for Dan Brown/Robert Langdon- this definitely needs to be mentioned in an authors' alter egos section. Feeeshboy (talk) 21:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

It is my belief you may add a section on psychiatry linking the alter ego with freuds ego and super ego and id. The Alter ego may be where a persons persona resides when out of contact with reality a theory developed by Randall Morton in 20012. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.108.119.250 (talk) 12:58, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Singular focus on psychological usage, ignoring common usage
The phrase Alter ego is commonly used to mean a very close and constant friend or alternative person who can take-over their role when away or sick, etc. However, this article is singularly focused on the psychological usage (dual or multiple personalities within one person), rather than the common usage in every-day conversation (someone's close companion or substitute person of the first person). For example, see: This article as is, is entirely focused on the psychological usage, and totally ignores the common usage of the phrase. I am not sure of the best way to resolve this. Maybe this should be a disambiguation page or, else, the page should explain both usages in the lede with two main sections for each usage? Enquire (talk) 19:49, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * alter_ego
 * Dictionary.com: alter ego
 * The Free Dictionary: alter ego
 * Merriam-Webster: alter ego
 * Oxford: alter ego
 * Actually, on re-examination of the article, it seems already to have an inherent ambiguity. It intermingles both the psychological usage as well as the dramatic usage where (say) celebrities or fictional characters (intentionally) express express an alternative personality (alter ego) when on stage or as in Superman. In summary, it seems that the article as is now, could better inform if it was divided into three parts, such as (say):
 * Alter ego (psychology)
 * Alter ego (companion)
 * Alter ego (dramatic persona)
 * In this case, maybe this page could either become a disambiguation page or, else, a brief introduction to the above three interpretations with links to more detailed exploration on following pages. Comments?
 * Enquire (talk) 23:46, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I would suggest it remain one article with three sections as the psycholigcal and dramatic uses of the word are intimately related. — Robert Greer (talk) 22:45, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

On behalf of Enquire, requesting community input on his proposal to divide the article into three separate articles or any alternative proposal. (See article talk page for details) - Mailer Diablo 18:28, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Disagree An article may only have one subject. Moreover, we already have articles about non-psychological senses of this word, such as pen name, stage name, ring name, persona, moniker, etc. Dedicate this article to psychology only and remove irrelevant contents (such as § Performing artists). If a suitable merge target cannot be found for them, either create an article for them (if notable) or forget about them (if not notable). Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 07:33, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Disagree Codename Lisa summed it up well. We have a plague of articles that need splitting because they were conceived without proper thought, let alone proper preparation. This one seems to be a prime example. There very likely should be a disambiguation page, but whether we create one or not, leaving a misch-mash in the existing article is not a viable option. At the very least, a several-way split gives us at least a hope that some of the splinter articles in their own right are worth while. JonRichfield (talk) 11:07, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The celebrity (persona) section should be removed, as it is mostly merely a variation on "stage name". This page should primarily be used for literary usage. It is due to that usage that the term is also used colloquially for non-literary usage, when other more specific terms are more appropriate to those cases. - jc37 07:32, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Non-free use of File:Superman 296.jpg
The non-free use of this image is being discuused at. All interested editors are welcome to participate. - Marchjuly (talk) 02:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Ancedotes
Moving this here. I am not sure if anecdotes are supposed to be in science or psychology articles. Both are from very weak primary sources - an unedited pop psychology book and a newspaper. Amousey (talk) 01:50, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 August 2020 and 12 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jytweve. Peer reviewers: Kev2kus.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:56, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Alter ego (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:48, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

List of major authors' fictional alter egos?
I think this article would be improved by including (or linking to) a reliably-sourced List of major authors' fictional alter egos (for instance Pip in Great Expectations has allegedly been described as a fictional self of Charles Dickens], even though this might require a lot of work if such a list does not already exist, and, per WP:NOTCOMPULSORY and WP:BNO, any such new list would probably be done more easily and better if it was done by more interested and/or more expert editors than me. . Tlhslobus (talk) 16:15, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

I have now added Author surrogate to our See also, and Alter ego to Author surrogate's See also, tho I am unclear whether these are different names for the same thing (in which case maybe the articles need to be merged) or subtly different concepts, and either way there is seemingly no list of authors and their surrogates/alter egos, though the Alter egos category does seem to offer a kind of starting point from which to create such a list. Tlhslobus (talk) 16:39, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Are we just talking about "pen names" for authors here? Or actual character portrayals of authors within their own books, or pseudo-autobiographies. I think of Ian Fleming suggesting he wrote about Bond as if he saw himself wanting to be that character. SquashEngineer (talk) 13:14, 4 October 2022 (UTC)