Talk:Altered state of consciousness/Archive 1

Improvement Drive
Meditation is currently a nominee on WP:IDRIVE. If you would like to see this article improved vote for it on WP:IDRIVE.--Fenice 15:33, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Trance and 'altered states'
This 'altered state' concept of trance depends on an explicitly unstated model or framework. I would like to introduce another model for trance which encompasses meditation, hypnosis, addiction, charisma, electronic, etc. as types of trances, and which is explicitly stated in my book and elsewhere (www.trance.edu, for example). The trance model has been evolving for the past 10 years, but it seems to me to be a good reframe for a definition and explanation for trance and its varieties. Drwier 21:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the intention of this initiative. I encountered ill informed resistance to my usage of 'trance' in the Wiki Singing Bowls article. Trance is increasing used as a the meta-paradigm for difference states of consciousness. No value judgement on the states is intended. Some people have different understanding of the term trance. The definition in Wiktionary could do with reframing and extended definitions and usages. B9 hummingbird hovering 09:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

inflate the macromap
Common Causes An altered state of consciousness can come about accidentally through fever, sleep deprivation, starvation, oxygen deprivation, nitrogen narcosis (deep diving), or a traumatic accident. Intentionally it can sometimes be reached by the use of a sensory deprivation tank or mind-control techniques, hypnosis, meditation, prayer, or disciplines (e.g. Mantra Meditation, Yoga, Sufism or Surat Shabda Yoga). It is sometimes attained through the ingestion of psychoactive drugs such as alcohol and opiates, or hallucinogenic plants and chemicals such as LSD, 2C-I, peyote, marijuana, mescaline, psilocybin mushrooms, and datura (Jimson weed).

Naturally occurring altered states of consciousness include channeling, dreams, premonitions, euphoria, ecstasy, out of body experiences, psychosis and "being in the zone".

mind changes its normative Yin condition relative to the ego mind, and to some extent, takes control of the conscious mind, especially in regard to motor control.evolutionary psychologyThe reason for this adaption is that the Reptilian mind is actually moving faster and reflexing better than the normal Waking Beta Conscious mind.
 * Fear induces a trance state, usually, in which the Reptilian


 * Fever induces a trance state primarilly because it is the Theta condition in which the bodies self maintenance consciousness operates.

the psyche towards the sleep types of consciousness.
 * Sleep Deprivation induces a trance state because the Neural net gtes overloaded with signal noise, and the Need for sleep drives

mind. The higher and deeper the system goes into extreme need, shock, or damage, the more the Reptilain mind "looses faith" with the conscious mind and the more it takes over. If the body is out of nutrition, particularly brain nutrients, switching to a lower energy operational state such as alpha condition or somnambulism can conserve brain nutrients, and, more importantly, returns the survival instincts back to the front of metacognition.
 * Starvation induces a Trance state for similar reasons to Sleep deprivation. The bodies emergency fall back state is the Reptilian

causes altered states of consciousness for the same reasons as Starvation, essentially.
 * oxygen deprivation is a form of brain nutrient deprivation, and so

comment on.
 * Nitrogen Narcosis is a peculiar case i don't know enough to make

find something to fix itself to. If you can't see, the mind eventually gets bored, particularly the occipital lobes, and begins to "think" you might be asleep. Light is known to be a clear cause of increase and decrease in alpha wave patterns, and this is, incidentally, an interesting sidenote in explanation of different types of behavior in day time and night time activities.
 * Sensory Deprivation works because the force of attention will always

brain inhibition that maintains a waking Beta Condition- it is LOSS of that control which generally leads to Altered states of consciousness.
 * "mind control techniques" sounds a bit campy. Could we consider changing that to "self exploration" Techniques. Incidentally, it is

One is with an outside of self operator, and one is all the individuals own work. The two are very similar, but have very different pros and cons to them. It is difficult or impossible to generate waking theta conditions via mere "hypnosis" for instance. Self control of the self hypnotist is much more fine than what can be expressed verbally by an exterior source. Additionally, a hypnotist does not have as good a feedback system.
 * hypnosis, and "self hypnosis" are pretty distinctly different.

well, thats a third of theway through, and i don't want to overwhelm anybody, so I'll quit fer now. Prometheuspan 00:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 03:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Scientific ("Typology" section)
This article should be kept as objective as possible and therefore as scientific as possible. References to clairvoyance, mediumship and the like should not be included as they are not scientifically proven. If references to these have to be made then these should be separated out into separate section and explained fully. 82.163.238.78 17:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I've tagged the typology section as unencyclopedic. GreyTwilight 01:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm removing the entire section. "Mental mediums", "clairvoyance", and "spirit guides"? These are quite obviously someone's personal beliefs and are completely unproven. Neko18 (talk) 06:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

If we can't even come up with an introductory sentence to this section, I propose we remove it altogether. Is there anyone reading this that has any idea what the section means in the context of this article? An encyclopedia should explain things, not just make an attempt at explaining. This falls even shorter than that as not even an attempt is made to explain this section. It's like some sort of awkward glitch or something. I suggest: Explain it or remove it. --AnalogWeapon (talk) 04:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

EEG/Brainwave Of Ego Death
Does anyone know the brainwave pattern of psychedelic (LSD, shrooms, mesc, DMT, ect.) ego death? Has there been a specific studies on the brainwave pattern of ego death? Ken Wilber did some experiments some time ago on different meditative states of mind and he managed to stop his brain waves completely and according to him this is a state of pure non-dual awareness with no feeling of the mind-body limitations on perception. This description seems similar to ego death so is ego death brought upon by having no brain waves? Zachorious 18:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * → Sounds more like "brain death" — or maybe even death itself ! — to me.


 * Is there any evidence that, uh, Ken Wilber ever... recovered  from that state...?
 * Just curious,
 * — Wi ki sc ie nt  — 05:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Need more information
I believe that there should be more information listed under the causes section. This involves accident/pathological and intentional/recreational/spiritual/religious. I also noticed that the word Typology wasn't defined, which I believe should so it can give readers and researchers a better understand of what it is exactly they are readying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjpolo15 (talk • contribs) 19:34, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Explain list of conscious states
There is a list of conscious states with no clarification as to how it ties into this article. Perhaps elaborating, defining, or comparing and contrasting some states of consciousness with altered states would give the reader more information and a better understanding.--Carmacev (talk) 21:08, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Expand on Causes
This article could be improved if it expanded its causes section. I think it would be beneficial if it explained how these things or causes altered ones state of consciousness. It may also be beneficial if it listed precursers to an alter state of cosciousness so that one would be able to determine whether or not they or some else was on the verg of an an altered state. Ybagby (talk) 02:15, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

New Ideas to Improve
Adding more information to what exactly altered state of consciousness is. Also reviewing and updating the states of consciousness. For example, dreaming is part of altered states of consciousness and it is not listed as being one of the states. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjpolo15 (talk • contribs) 17:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Improving Article
I would like to add information explaining how feelings are involved in an altered state of consciousness. When involved in an altered state of consciousness, a person feels as though they are not in reality. Therefore the person has many feelings that differ from when they are in a normal state of mind. The person will also feel detached from their surroundings. Majority of the time a person with an altered state of consciousness will have an unsettling feeling. I will also discuss how there are other feelings involved that could be considered positive such as if the consciousness in altered purposely. Overall my plan is to add and discuss the feelings that a person typically has when they have an altered state of consciousness. 18 October 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leah9220 (talk • contribs) 17:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Expanding on the Pathological and Accidental Causes
This would be the idea for the structure so far Brief introduction

==Accidental or Pathological Causes == List of causes each definition will relate to the main definition of what Altered state of consciouness means in the introduction paragraph of the article.

•	Infections : example meningitis define, symptoms •	Oxygen deprivation: define, effect on the consciousness and study •	 Psychosis : define, examples, effect on the consciousness •	Epilepsy: studies from articles, and definition •	Traumatic accident: study that demonstrates example of how it relates to consciousness. Mayrapm128 (talk) 21:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Peer Review: The beginning of each new topic I don't think you should start off with: the first condition, another cause, etc. When you have a list of names us et al. Traumatic experiences: Thought it was very well put together. Very good wordage. Epilepsy: First sentence needs period after epilepsy and a coma after Medlinaplus (is that one word?) Second sentence is worded as if it needs more information. You wrote and a loss of mental control. I would say an loss of mental control. Third sentence should start with new paragraph. If using abbreviations you have not mentioned, write out so reader knows exactly what it is. (FMRI) Fourth sentence put coma after pattern. Take out last sentence, seems as if it is just a filler. Oxygen Deficiency: First sentence to long. Add coma or try to shorten it. Second sentence et al names. Infections: Second sentence make infections plural because you are only talking about one. Third sentence use quotation marks if something is being stated. Fourth sentence change to children and adults. Fifth sentence should just be bacterial and viral. You mention viral causes but no bacterial causes. Last sentence is a run on. Needs comas or periods. Sleep Deprivation: Coma after 2007. Write out MRI. Fourth sentence take out there was. Last sentence just seems like filler words. You can be combined this sentence with the 4th. Fasting: GREAT PARAGRAPH!!! NO CHANGES :o) Psychosis: Add coma after depersonalization in third sentence. You mention devastating consequences, but never said what they could be. Think that could be important. Last sentence is way to long. Use periods and start new sentences. Overall good paper. You have a lot great information and it shows as if you put hard work into it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjpolo15 (talk • contribs) 23:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Peer Review
Over all the paper was good. In the 1st paragraph you need your thesis and talk more about what ASC is. Basically change up the order its is in. Paragraph 2 Say a little more about your examples of ASC and make it a little more clear. Paragraph 3 go into things more. Paragraph 4 go more into information. A lot of good information but some of it does needs to be more clear. The paper could take some of the quotes out. Dionneba (talk) 04:43, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Note to regular editors of this page
Have made an edit on this page and separated ASC section for spiritual/religious, Intentional and Psychoactive drugs, to provide better clarity and differentiate the issues for reader. thank you Prodigyhk (talk) 17:59, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Altered state of consciousness when drugs are introduced
I plan to edit this article by introduce altered state of consciousness when drugs (legal and illegal) are introduced. I will give examples of drugs and illustrate in what way they each alter the state of consciousness. I will attempt to give examples of legal drugs also, and describe in which way that consciousness is compromised when they are not taken as prescribed. I will also describe the level of functioning when one is under the influence of drugs. Ybagby (talk) 01:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Peer Review: Thought this was a great paper to read, however, I do have a few comments. First paragraph: should focus more on drug aspect and not what ASC is. Second paragraph great wordage, flows great. Third paragraph what does clound 9 mean? I would be more specific, because not everyone knows that phrase. Fourth paragraph love the examples. Like I mentioned before great paper, few errors, very interesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjpolo15 (talk • contribs) 23:33, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

What about psychedelic drugs that are traditionally (but not exclusively) used for spiritual purposes, as in Salvia Divinorum, LSA, LSD, DMT etc.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.121.81.37 (talk) 22:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Cleanup of Psychoactive Drugs section required
I just tried to fix some of the most glaring problems with this section, including multiple grammatical and stylistic issues, but the more I edited the more I came to realize that the entire section needs to be wiped and re-written by someone more knowledgeable about the subject. Dubious sources, improper citations, and a style totally inconsistent with the rest of the article - it all just needs to go. At the same time, this section is probably the reason a lot of readers will be looking at this article in the first place, and simply deleting it would leave a pretty glaring gap. I wish I could help more, but I simply don't have the knowledge required to re-write it myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.151.8.180 (talk) 23:11, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, guys, but term ASC was not introdused by Ludwig
There are some earlier works about "altered states of consciousness" which you can find using PubMed and scholar.google — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.198.111.86 (talk) 00:06, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Max Mailhouse 1904 on epilepsy
Stumbled on what seems to be a few instances of the phrase, used in context, prior to the date given:

"That is to say the psyche may take on an independent action entirely foreign to the nature and personality of the epileptic when free from an attack, and this altered state of consciousness may lead to acts more or less harmful to patient or bystander" Read at the 4th Annual Meeting of the Assoc. for the Study of Epilepsy and the care and treatment of Epileptics, 22 Nov 1904. Published as The Duties of the State with Reference to Epileptics - Max Mailhouse  p83 In Bulletin of State Institutions [under the Board of Control], Volume 7 1905. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015074683437;view=1up;seq=91

Other refs, all appearing to regard epilepsy, which indeed the existing article already correctly mentions. The latest of these from 1947, and still predating the cited origination, even mentions the patient taking on a fugue, which, although mostly also associated with epilepsy, does chime with the passage in the article that mentions alternative symptoms, specifically, "observable abnormal and sluggish behaviors". https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22altered+state+of+consciousness%22&biw=1605&bih=1279&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1100%2Ccd_max%3A1950&tbm=bks

Jfderry (talk) 21:07, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

A friend has gone one better with an Aberdeen article from 1892

Jfderry (talk) 14:59, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Citation style
Needs some cleanup -> consistency etc. Here's a backgrounder:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Citation_style
 * Thanks! Kortoso (talk) 19:59, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Hypnosis state/non-state discussion
'By 1892, the expression was in use in relation to hypnosis[2] but likely does not accord to the modern definition of ASC (see Concept).' I believe this is simply accepting one side of a long standing debate without any discussion. There are plenty of psychologists and hypnotists who argue that hypnosis IS an altered state. http://hypnosisandsuggestion.org/states-of-consciousness.html has a discussion of this but there are many others. Dlgoldstein (talk) 15:18, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Epilepsy
The epilepsy paragraph is too stigmatising, a research target group of 6 patients is way to small. Patients who experience hallucinations during a seizure are quite rare. I have epilepsy, a seizure is a mostly physical experience. The "altered state of mind" I sometimes experience in a heavy seizure more or less resembles the feeling of beïng under water, ( blurred vision, sounds and voices seem distant ) These is more a kind of detachment instead of a the experience of delusions. You risk to define all epilepsy patients as being at risk for psychosis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1810:3809:B700:2D46:8D57:DE90:5D45 (talk) 15:07, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

History of scholarly approaches
The following sentences are incoherent: "Due to the behaviourist paradigm in psychology altered states of consciousness were dismissed as a field of scientific inquiry during the early 20th century.[18] They were pathologized and merely seen as symptoms of intoxication or demonic possession.[19]" The first may be accurate (it makes sense, but I am not familiar with the reference in [18]), but the second cannot be true simultaneously: it is absolutely impossible that any behaviorist should ever understand ACSs as the result of demonic possession---since the behavioris paradigm is intent on deriding not only the concept of demonic possession, but more generally any concept dependent on the soul (see Watson, Behaviorism (rev. ed.), University of Chicago Press, 1930). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.171.128.246 (talk) 20:15, 3 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're right. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  04:15, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Though, at second thought: what's probably meant is that altered states of consciousness were seen as symptoms of demonic possession by non-psychologists. But I can't access p.126 of the source, so I don't know what that page syas. Joshua Jonathan  - Let's talk!  04:19, 4 May 2018 (UTC)