Talk:Alternative culture

Creation
I wrote this page a few weeks ago (its pretty much the same as it was) and didnt think to speak about it untill just, but I wrote it because I felt I know quite a bit about alternative culture and it deserved an article (popular culture has an article). The icons list is just a list of people who are generally respected and looked up to by alt music fans (budd dwyer isnt reaspected really but that event has become quite an underground fascination).I expect it to change a bit because everyone and their brother seems to have a different idea what alt cul is, but i tried to come up with something to help the people who dont know what it really is.Motown Junkie 19:36, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Some of the stuff being added to this article doesn't seem to fit with alternative culture right. We now have Blink-182 (pop punk, not alternative) and American Pie (what's alternative about that?), amongst other things that wouldn't really be concidered alternative. I think we need to start removing some things based on whether or not they truely fit into the category. -- LGagnon

I would like to try to get some more opinions on this, just to give it a more universal feel. Most of this was written by me, and so I could only go on what I have found to have an alternative slant. I have tried to keep my own opinion out of it and give an unbiased account. Does anybody know how we can get more people to read the article and then leave their opinions on this page? Motown Junkie 18:59, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, personally I think that underground culture and what is traditionally considered alternative aren't neccasarily the same thing. There are several underground cultures, but not all are alternative; alternative is more of a subgroup of underground. Given that, the Bud Dwyer thing and other snuff films shouldn't really count as being part of alternative culture, IMO. There are people who aren't nearly alternative who still find an interest in that kind of stuff that aren't really part of it.
 * Also, Otto from The Simpsons shouldn't be in there as alternative either. He was a metal fan, and never into alternative music as far as I remember. In fact, he was a Poison fan, which was one of the bands that grunge fans considered to be fakes.
 * There's probably more that needs to be pointed out, but I'd have to reread the article before being sure. I'll let someone else comment on the rest for now -- LGagnon

I think that, eventually, this page will become more interesting than the article.Motown Junkie 12:25, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Possible article series?
Now that I think of it, it might be best to make this into an article series. This article as it is is really just a loosely connected jumble of seperate aspects of seperate sub-cultures, many of which have no real concrete relation to each other. It would probably be best to make several articles for each of the seperate aspects, then use this article as a main page in the series. So we'd have alternative sports, alternative film, etc. Then this article itself could be somewhat like the main article for the liberal series.

Also, we should make sure to mention that these are not truely connected to each other, but rather compiled through a catch-all phrase (which in most cases alternative is used as). After all, as I've mentioned not everyone considers everything in this article to be part of alternative culture. In fact, many would take offense to many of the things in this article being called alternative (I for one don't like wrestling and snuff films being associated with it). There are even "alternative" sub-cultures that have nothing to do with any of this that still call themselves alternative. Still, as long as we can fix this article to actually show that these are loosely related and not truely part of a singular, well-defined culture it should work out. -- [[User talk:LGagnon|LGagnon]] 03:42, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)

I have read your concerns about this page, and I think you guys are right I am going to add some stuff to the article now referring to it's very fragmented nature and also add links to other sub-pages. On what you pointed out about "alternative" being a catch all-phrase, I now agree completely as my opinions on alternative has changed since I first wrote this page. I now feel that alternative is basically just different forms of art, culture, philosophies and lifestyle that are liberal, sometimes a little wacky but always liberating for the individuals who take part in them.Motown Junkie 19:05, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Your new changes don't seem to be enough. While it is important to say that they have little in common, it also needs to be mentioned that not everyone who is involved with one thing is involved with the others. Also, some people reject some "alternative" things as not really being alternative.
 * I would also advise against making a "Timeline of important events in alternative culture" article. It would only have the same problems that this article currently has. Other than that, you also should be moving the individual sections to the new articles you linked to in the See also section, and then work towards making an article series list to take the place of the sections. -- [[User talk:LGagnon|LGagnon]] 20:23, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)

Teen Culture
This looks like it was written by a 16 year old. Makes me wonder if this same article written in the '60's would talk about Elvis and "Rock 'n Roll" as an alternative for that era, whereas now he is certainly not considered alternative. Perhaps the "series of articles" mentioned by LGagnon would best be filed under "Youth/Teen Culture Trends of the 1990s." or something. MPS 21:35, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have just added the "disputed" template to the top of the article. Please do not remove it until this situation is resolved. -- [[User talk:LGagnon|LGagnon]] 23:52, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Replacement for my paragraph
The following was used to replace my last intro paragraph:
 * "What follows is an attempt to provide a context for the individual pages found in the "See Also" section.

Looking at what we have in the See also section, there's very little that the article currently relates to. I suggest finishing fixing up all the problems with this article before trying to get rid of the needed warning that I have put in that last paragraph. -- [[User talk:LGagnon|LGagnon]] 05:31, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

Idea for an alternative
Ive just looked at this page and decided that the best thing to do would probably be to scrap it altogether. However, I still think that an article about the concept of an alternative culture is an interesting one but it is simply too difficult to write an article that, in combination, pleases everyone and isnt just a list of the tired cliches that were bought into existence by the mainstream media.

I think it would be better to expand on the alternative music article by writing new articles about some of the concepts of the music itself as the alternative culture article is almost entirely based on the music side of things anyway. By this I mean that we could expand the selling out page, expand the page about DIY punk ethic and write new pages about other concepts, areas and ideas that are commonly associated with alternative music. Thanx.Motown Junkie 14:25, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In a blatant, unashamed contradiction of what I wrote on the 15th, I'm currently approaching a full-blown re-write of this article that will replace this one as soon as I finish it. The current one is all over the gaff to the point where it is simply impossible to retrieve any sort of well written article out of it. Motown Junkie 12:25, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Music alone does not a culture make, and I agree with Motown Junkie that the existing article is perhaps too limited to the culture's music and musicians. If the article is going to be scrapped and rewritten or refocused as has been suggested, let's broaden the scope beyond music, to identify and explore other facets, e.g., the social and political aspects of alternative culture.  That said, I do agree that the music is a major factor in how people self-identify and align themselves with the culture, as well as probably the primary vehicle through which the political and social aspects get expressed and become visible to the larger population outside the culture.  But that's all very POV and based on my own interpretations. Mark Dixon 14:48, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

More problems with rewrite
With this new rewrite you've added more problems. First of all, you are trying to define alt culture as one culture when it is not any single thing. Keep in mind that the whole concept is more of a media label than anything. Many grunge fans in the early 90s refused to call what they had a culture, because it was mostly (if not entirely) about the music for them. And outside of grunge there is still no way to define AC without simply jumping into the lies of the media. Basically, you are trying to define that which can't be. This is why the intro I wrote only attempts to tell why people think there is an AC, not what it is.

Second of all, your rewrite is very POV. You seem to be trying to evaluate AC instead of define it. There's a lot of slangy wording in there too, which I recommend changing to look more acedemic. You also talk about alternative music too much, which should be in the alt music article, not here. At most, a short mention of it would be enough, not a huge section.

Third of all, you are factually inaccurate here and there. For example, you called Douglas Coupland an American (he's Canadian). There's a lot more than that which needs to be rewritten for accuracy, and I suggest doing some research before throwing things in the article. -- [[User talk:LGagnon|LGagnon]] 20:27, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback. I will go about changing it bit by bit so that I can get more of a handle on it. I wrote most of this in one go to set the article into a different direction than the old one, and I hope that as the article mutates and grows it will be more liked and more of a piece. I have one question though: what do you mean by "slangy wording". Thanx. Motown Junkie 01:00, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Here's one example: "The record was seen by fans and critics alike to be the kick up the backside that was long overdue in the world of rock." The term "kick up the backside" usually wouldn't appear in an academic work (which is what Wikipedia should strive to be). -- [[User talk:LGagnon|LGagnon]] 01:36, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

New Total Reworking Of Article
I've written a a fairly long template for this article. (I say template because I feel that it still quite short). I felt the 'original' article was too narrow and didn't focus on any of the disclaimer-type issues raised in the introduction. I realise that I haven't done the best job, but I feel it's a better start for other to improve upon. (I myself soon intend to add some more things, which I haven't done now because I didn't want to spend over an hour on this article). --User:Aaron Jethro, 29 August 2005

The statement "A subculture is usually formed by young working class people" may have been true in the mid-twentieth century; but by now, more sub-cultures spring from the middle class(es).

Deleted + A personal comment
Upon my most recent edit, I deleted this recently added bit in the Notes subsection:


 * #Tehran City in I.R.Iran and Tehran are notabley rising several sub-cultures during the first years of the new melenium. youths which  are also artists and rebels than the Mob., with areas that were greatly impoverished like Apadana Suburbia and The Underground Culture : underground ART:Kolahstudio  other groups like Parkingallery and...

I realise there may be something important contained in that segment. Hopefully someone will take the iniative to pick up on what it is and create an article (or two) based on it.

Secondly, I mentioned, when I first re-wrote this whole article that it was only a template which others could expand upon, but so far no-one has. Which annoys me, because:

a) the whole concept of alt. culture is total rubbish. I'm consciously aware that my article is not something which could be taken seriously.

b) the whole concept of alt. culture is total rubbish. No-one has bothered to properly debunk the whole idea in the article & prove the Current State Of... subsection to be a load of "pah, kids today"-style ranting.

c) the whole concept of alt. culture is total rubbish. I want someone to work in links to all the great sub-cultures that sprung up during the last century - (has something truly unique popped up this decade? I don't just mean music here) - from teddy boys to riot girrrls. Surely this would be better than trying to put them all under some BS umbrella term.

- Aaron Jethro 00:57, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Following my own editing of this article, I think I'll now withdraw my above comments. The main issue I had, although I now realise I probably should have stated this before, was that it was an article that started off by saying that the term was hard to define and ended by saying most things that had come before were just a cliche. That said, I hope someone will give it that little extra something, which I think it currently lacks.
 * - Aaron Jethro 03:02, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup tag
This is a potentially worthy article, but it reads like original research and is badly written. I think the main problem is the author's assumed understanding of "the mainstream culture" as an unproblematic opposition to "alternative". More references (from authorities) are also needed. Someone with a background in media studies and subculture research should take a look (I wish there were more of us around). --The Famous Movie Director 06:49, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be fair to say that I am the author of the majority of this article's text and thus I just want to briefly explain my work. Please read the above sections on this talk page, 'New total reworking of article' and 'Deleted + A personal comment', as I think it's important that you understand that I read an earlier version of this article and was annoyed to see it was arguably a poorer effort than my own. I have stated there that my work was meant to be a template, as I just wanted to get two things clear for others to expand upon or dismiss. First, that there is several strains of POPULAR CULTURE which could be collected together under the label of alternative culture. I have used credible sources for all my information on each of them, for example the books This Band Could Be Your Life (hardcore/grunge), Yes, Yes Y'All (hip-hop), Generation Ecstasy (rave), etc.. Thus I would challenge to point out any factual inaccuracies. I didn't cite these books before because I only summarised them and I feel that the things said about these subcultures are generally known anyway. Secondly, I have attempted to blur the line between pop' and alt' culture as the introductory paragraph (which is the only thing I kept from the older version) declares that AC is a flimsy concept and doesn't have any true fixed and universally accepted definition. This is a strong claim but it is backed by references which are listed at the end of the article. According to them, (although this isn't the full conclusion of these works), AC, in all it's forms, is PC. I'll admit that that my prose can come off as sounding like original research, but to be honest I dropped out of the education system at an early age and thus I don't have any experience of writing an academic work. Without wanting to sound cheeky, if you have a supposed background in media studies and subculture research then please be my guest and do a better job, because this article's pretty been the same since last September and I doubt anyone else is gonna do the job as you're the only user who's contested this version since then. - Aaron Jethro 20:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for working on the article, I'm sure it's much better than it was before you improved it. However, where cleanup is concerned, an understanding of the work any individual put into an article is irrelevant, since the author is supposed to be invisible on Wikipedia.
 * The problem might be the writing style more than the content, but it does need improving. I'd like to do it myself, but I'm busy at the moment with university. I might go back to it later if nobody else has. --The Famous Movie Director 07:56, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Scare quotes
Is there some reason for the absurd amount of scare quotes in this article? Does it have something to do with NPOV? Ecto 01:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Vague, Empty, and incomplete!
I know little about Alternative Culture, in fact I'm trying to find something new(to me), exciting and different from the 'American Mainstream Consumerism Millennial' BS... And so I came here.

First Off: "all alternative cultures follow a similar process of origination, development, and decline. Alternative cultures also share several common values"...

Great topic sentence. The following section starts to detail this, gets distracted and eventually tails off. In fact, in 3 paragraphs it roughly follows that exact pattern... It would be of value if someone completed this thought with clarity and citations.

Second: "The current state of alternative culture" So to paraphrase: 'Alternative culture once existed in NYC and Manchester, (neither of which is a capital city), possibly fueled by high poverty rates. More recently and in the vein of "Video killed the radio star", technology, consumerism and the rising American obesity rate have nailed the coffin shut on Alternative Culture. We're not sure if alternatives culture ever existed, we certainly can't define it, and wouldn't know where to look if we wanted to find it today. But it's probably dead anyways...'

Flaw 1: The article nearly implies nothing of cultural significance has happened in the last 10 years, but fails to make a definitive statement about anything. This section in particular says nothing relevant about the "current state of alternative culture'.

flaw 2: Much of alternative-culture did NOT originate in the United States, however the listed causes for decline are all decidedly American.

My Conclusion: Any one I've ever known who was exploring alternative culture, held tightly to the mantras "If you stand for everything, you stand for nothing", and "if you stand for nothing you will fall for anything".

Ironically, this article tries to be vague enough to appease everyone, and doesn't have the balls to stand up and definitively say anything. It is empty and hollow, just like today's mainstream American culture... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.20.154.192 (talk) 23:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)