Talk:Alternative hip hop/Archive 1

Backpacker hip-hop
When Backpacker hip hop was put up for deletion, the consensus was to merge it here. However, when I came to do this, the "content" at Backpacker hip hop was really nothing more than unverifiable POV/rant/original research. Let it be known that I tried. If anyone wants to add anything more in this article about "backpackers", feel free. Jdcooper 21:56, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Kanye West
Rather or not you people want to think about it or not, if you listen to  Kanye West's production, lyrics, and what he stands for and how open he is about it, you'd see that he is actually a bohemian MC with mass appeal. Look at the way he dresses. He's not the most Gangsta man around.--Yack 22:43, September 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * thats correct, he could be considered "alternative", i suppose. (this user hates his guts) Urthogie 19:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No I don't! He's one of the best rappa's out there, in ma' opinion. I'm just sayin'. Besides, he speaks the truth. I can't hate no one like that.
 * 1)you need to listen to more rap if you think that. being better than retards like 50 cent and j-kwon makes him suck only slightly less than them.  compare him to guys like krs one or the pharcyde and theres no comparison.  2)he doesn't speak the truth.  all that socially concious stuff is bullshit.  he didn't even write or produce jesus walks(the song that got him famous and lets magazines pretend hes socially concious).  in fact, hes usually just babbling in his lyrics. 3)hes a good producer.  sometimes he overdoes the sped up r and b sample thing tho.Urthogie 12:54, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Am I hopelessly out of the loop, or is this article utterly incorrect? I would not consider anyone listed "alternative" in any way, and I've always thought the term referred to independent rappers, rappers who sound drastically different from the mainstream and don't have much or any pop success. About the most mainstream rappers I've ever heard described as alternative is A Tribe Called Quest, or maybe The Fugees and Lauryn Hill. If any sound can be commonly considered alternative rap, it's the jazz-based rap of De La Soul and Guru. Tokerboy 04:04 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)
 * Wow. I wouldn't call any of those alternative.  And what does the author mean by "Alternative rap is different in other types of rap usually because it mixes two or more distinct styles to make one. Alternative rappers usually also write and play other types of music too"?  Given the wide variety of sources in samples, wouldn't that mean nearly all rap is alternative?  Should we add Cypress Hill for their Dusty Springfield sample on "Hits from the Bong"?  Or is the author even talking about musical genres?  What does this mean?  I'm lost.  --KQ 04:15 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)
 * Jzcool provided the definition; judging by his other contributions, I'd have no remorse whatsoever in nuking the article. It's probably a poor attempt at a definition made completely without consulting authoritative sources.  --KQ
 * Sounds like a plan Tokerboy
 * I found this at allmusic.com: "Alternative Rap refers to hip-hop groups that refuse to conform to any of the traditional stereotypes of rap, such as gangsta, funk, bass, hardcore, and party rap. Instead, they blur genres, drawing equally from funk and pop/rock, as well as jazz, soul, reggae, and even folk." That sounds ok at first, except it's a defined by what it's not, which I don't particularly like.  What do you think?  Their definition and yours have some overlap, but sites I'm finding aren't in agreement about how to define it.  --KQ


 * Test of this definition: Kid Rock fits it, is he alternative? That kid fan, Ortolan88

This is an example of why I don't particularly trust allmusic. I looked at it too, but it doesn't meet what I've ever heard described as alternative rap. Most especially, Kid Rock (I'm a fan too) has never been described as alternative in any source I've seen. Really, I think the politically and socially conscious lyrics are what defines the genre. The term almost always refers to Mos Def and his ilk, from what I've seen. Tokerboy 04:50 Jan 6, 2003 (UTC)
 * The sites I'm finding which agree with allmusic, agree with allmusic completely--that is, they plagiarized. I can't vouch for their definition, because I've just always listened to various hip hop acts without knowing what genre they were, just whether I liked it or not.  Though I can see how knowing genres would have led me away from Cypress to Tribe a lot sooner.  ^_^  --KQ

-

This article is a #3 hit on google, so I'm going to spend some time on it and articles linked from it. A great article here would do wonders to Wikipedia's credibility, since it's a kinda underground phenomenon that has recently been getting much more mainstream. Tuf-Kat

It seems to be that Underground hip hop and Alternative hip hop are the same thing, so I made the stub redirect to the full article. If anyone is offended, just revert it and take my apology in advance. Rico 10:05, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Opinions,opinions
I sincerely think this whole page is an invented categorization of hip-hop music. It seems to me the whole page is based on some peoples opinion about certain styles of hip-hop. I'm also sorry to say that probably no artists listed on this page would apreciate themselves being listed here, especially since the term "bohemian hip-hop" is labeling the sub-genre. Sorry guys and gals, I just really don't feel like this page is very pertinent. Besides the term "underground" seems to me to be applicable to any artist not signed to a major. And can i bring to your attention the fact that Nirvana used to be considered "alternative" music and now i can find dave matthews band in the "alternative" section of HMV.... Lets not Overdefine hip-hop too much please.If anyone feels the same, please comment, and maybe we can consider modifying this page... Ostione 19:15, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

P.S. I totaly agree with KQ s comments. P.P.S Don t be mistaken I see the point of this article, the discography is really good,It's just these definitions I don't agree with.Most artists labelled here have had commercial succes, and you could argue that most styles listed on this page are truer to the golden age mentallity than most successfull hip-hop nowadays.So why call it alternative?In fact I thinkm because most peolpe contribuating to this article were not around during the golden years and tend to forget that the more mainstream aspect of hip-hop nowadays is from subgenres of the original styles.So Gangsta rap and other styles now mainstream should be the styles considered alternative.Dig?


 * It's alternative in the sense that it's alternative to chart hip hop. I don't think that it's terminology that hip hop heads would use, but perhaps alternative hip hop makes sense to the people who think of Ja Rule as normal hip hop and have most to learn from this page. Concious hip hop or underground hip hop might be better, but I don't like those labels much either. Tim Ivorson 21:12, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Depends upon who you ask as far as how this subgenre of hip-hop would/should be labeled. Different hip hop heads will use, depending upon their own preferences, conscious hip hop, abstract hip hop, underground hip hop, "real" hip hop, and more. Alternative hip-hop, I believe, stems from use at allmusic.com or some other major music outlet, although, truth be told, the "alternative' is the closest to the original format of the music/culture, and the commercial stuff is the farthest. --FuriousFreddy 16:24, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

All of these distinctions are silly. Its either rap or hip hop. If its something you do, its rap. If its something you live, its hip hop. Gangster rap, backpacker rap, anti-gangster rap, "political" rap-- all this is RAP. If the music is actually an expression of the artists life and not an attempt to fit the mold or rebel against it-- if it tells their story-- its Hip Hop. In the words of DJ Kool Herc, its about keeping it right, not about keeping it real. Urthogie 16:30, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * But that's a subjective way of looking at it. --FuriousFreddy 01:29, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I can't be bothered with signing up but i've just got to ask, why all this trouble over nothing? It's music, you don't have to break it down into genres, then sub-genres, then sub-sub-genres. You'll end up with "Oh that's Coup Rap, because its the Coup rapping" or "Hey, this is Kanye West hip-hop, it's dope no?". Forget all the distinctions, peace.

"political hip hop"
That's some funny shit, so hiphop goes from being political / social awareness to being in the news, and then to mention it's not just attention whore rapping, you have to add "political" to it.

-What do you mean by this comment??

backpacker? sparse beats? anti-gangster? huh?
i disagree with this idea that sparse beats and backpacker hip hop are elements of alternative hip hop.

there are plenty of dancable alternative hip hop tracks out there.

and being alternative doesnt mean youre against gangster rap, it just means you dont happen to embody the stereotype.

someone whos anti-gangster rap isnt alternative at all, theyre just a complete inverse of the original bullshit the marketing execs created. {Anon}

{...]

not only do you not seem to make any sort of sense at all, youre rant has no value to it. try to make sense. i wont be all psychological and suggest the music is getting to you..Urthogie 14:31, 1 September 2005 (UTC) (the writer of the anon)

I was basically just parroting what you said. With lots of insanity. Yeah. BEEF / Beef (documentary).