Talk:Amahl and the Night Visitors

Kinescope film
The current article says,
 * For several years it was assumed that the original telecast, preserved on kinescope, had been accidentally erased by an NBC technician, but a surviving copy was found

A kinescope film is a film, not a videotape. How can a film be erased? — Walloon 17:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Walloon is correct. Videotape had not yet been invented in 1951, so the only recording possible was on kinescope.  The kinescope might have been previously "lost' but not "erased".Thomprod 19:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I made the change and updated the name of MTR to the Paley Center for Media.Thomprod 17:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Date of effect on opening credits
User:86.27.10.203 has changed the date when the "howlaround" effect was used on the opening credits. The article stated they were used on the original NBC production in 1951, but 86.27.10.203 claims they were used for the 1959 BBC production. Can you cite a source for this?Thomprod 20:52, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I viewed a digital copy of the kinescope of the original 1951 broadcast and can confirm there is no "howlaround" effect used in this version.Thomprod 19:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

1951
The first North American production was produced by the Longy School of Music in Boston at the YWCA. I know; I played Amahl.James Hercules Sutton 06:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC)James Hercules Sutton. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JamesSutton (talk • contribs)

Was there an audience for the original 1951 live production?


 * According to an article on tvparty.com written by Mitchell Hadley, "NBC had lined up 35 affiliates coast to coast, the largest ever network hookup for an opera broadcast...It was estimated that five million people saw the live broadcast, the largest audience ever to see a televised opera." Thomprod (talk) 04:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Added this to the article. --Thomprod (talk) 00:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Was there a live studio audience for the original 1951 live production -- or for any of the following live annual production broadcasts?-96.237.7.252 (talk) 15:00, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Who were the original performers, orchestra, etc?


 * According to the imdb :
 * Chet Allen as Amahl
 * Rosemary Kuhlmann as the Mother
 * David Aiken as Melchior
 * Leon Lishner as Balthazar
 * Andrew McKinley as Kaspar
 * Francis Monachino as The Page
 * Melissa Hayden, Glen Tetley and Nicholas Magallanes as the dancing Shepherds
 * The orchestra was composed of members of the NBC "Symphony of the Air" and they were conducted by Thomas Schippers. Thomprod (talk) 04:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This has also been added to the article. --Thomprod (talk) 19:00, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

The article is very confusing about the years 1951 to 1963. If it was done live each time, then what is so special about the first 1951 production? It could have been recorded again during each live production. Was it?


 * The original 1951 production is notable for being the first opera written for and broadcast on television. The only way to record a live broadcast at that time was by kinescope.  Due to the low quality of this type of recording, it was not generally used to rebroadcast a production at a later date. Thomprod (talk) 04:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

"Beginning with the 1952 Christmas Day television broadcast of Amahl and the Night Visitors, Bill McIver took over the role of Amahl from Chet Allen when he was just nine years old. Bill would play the role for four years, longer than anyone else. His 1955 performance is available on DVD." So, it sounds like there are indeed many different old recordings? -69.87.201.170 (talk) 23:35, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The 1955 production is the only one available commercially on DVD. The original 1951 production is available for individual viewing at the Paley Center for Media and online from the Museum of Broadcast Communications. There are also several audio recordings available. Thomprod (talk) 04:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Critical reception
"Although his music was regarded by many critics as too eclectic and derivative, as well as too accessible, to merit serious consideration, the public responded eagerly to such works as The Medium, The Telephone and particularly The Consul... Menotti is often sentimental and occasionally banal, but his dramatic appeal and craftsmanship are undeniable. The Consul has a power that 50 years have not diminished while the sheer charm and tenderness of Amahl and the Night Visitors disarm criticism."

What have critics had to say about the various productions? What impact has it had on the careers of the performers? What were the main influences, sources, or subsequent effects?

It seems like there is an obvious cultural connection at least with the song We Three Kings of Orient Are. -69.87.201.170 (talk) 23:35, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Running time
Our audio recording runs about 50 minutes. What is the running time of the video versions? -69.87.201.170 (talk) 23:35, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The 1955 DVD recording runs 46 minutes for the opera itself, plus six minutes of carols by the Colombus Boychoir. Thomprod (talk) 04:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Infobox
It has been suggested that an infobox should be added to this article. Here is one using the template for opera, but I don't think it adds anything to what we already have in the text. Comments? Thomprod (talk) 02:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The opera project does not use infoboxes. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:45, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Notice re: inline citations
The article now has 15 citations from seven sources. I think the notice asking for more inline citations can be removed. --Thomprod (talk) 14:00, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe that the article is still underreferenced. There are whole paragraphs of the History section that are unsupported by a citation (I agree that the plot summary needs no references, since it is based entirely on the libretto).  -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:34, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I wasn't sure how many refrences are considered "enough", so thanks for the feedback. I'll work on finding more references for the History section. --Thomprod (talk) 01:17, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

CDs and DVDs
Please add complete details about CD and DVD issues. -96.233.30.113 (talk) 15:02, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You are free to do this yourself. --Thomprod (talk) 23:00, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Amateur, semi-professional, church productions
A 2007 review in the NYTimes claims that since the television debut, Amahl has been performed over 2,500 times. The work is relatively short, the parts are not demanding, and even a mid-sized church choir with a couple of paid singers can manage a decent production, especially by ignoring the composer's wish and turning Amahl into a Hosenrolle. Yet there is no mention of this reception in the article.

Janko (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC).

Style Question
Shouldn't the titles of the individual numbers be quotated rather than italicized? I thought that italics were for the titles of full works, i.e. albums, series, etc., whilst songs, episodes, etc. were only in quotes. 75.204.171.74 (talk) 16:43, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The style guidelines you are referring to are those in use for popular music, TV series, films etc. The Classical Music and Opera Project guidelines are a bit different, and require italics for all titles in the text of the article (regardless of what the title refers to), and no use of quotation marks. Regards. --Francesco Malipiero (talk) 18:35, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Amahl original role: Chet Allen and Bill McIver
(1955 DVD) Nov. 24, 2007 C. Stanley says: "Actually, you don't have the 1951 version (with Chet Allen singing Amahl) and you may have a copy of the 1955 version as the part of Amahl is being sung by Bill McIver who sang the part for four years in a row beginning in 1952 when he was only 9 years old. Reportedly beginning in 1953 version it was recorded in color. I was assuming that you had a copy of the 1952 version because your cover picture is in black in white, but my son (who has sung Amahl professionally twice and studied the DVD's of the 1951 and 1952 productions extensively) says that McIver appears older on the cover of your DVD than on our 1951 version. My son prefers Bill McIver to Chet Allen because he finds him the better actor, although Chet Allen is probably the better singer and is available on the CD sold at Amazon and elsewhere."

(1955 DVD) Dec. 2, 2007 David Holley says: "The DVD listed on Amazon is the 1955 live telecast released by VAI this year. I direct the opera program at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, where Bill McIver taught until he took a position at Eastman in 1998. We produced AMAHL under his direction from 1993-1996 and even brought Rosemary Kuhlmann (the original Mother and on both the 1951 CD and the 1955 DVD) down to Greensboro the first year we presented it. Rosemary recently wrote to me to let me know of the release of the DVD, indicating it was the last of the four years Bill sang it on NBC-TV (1955) and that the DVD includes a 30-minute interview with her that was recorded last July at her home in Rhode Island. Enjoy! Bill was a prince of a man who passed away in September of 2003."

(1955 DVD) January 31, 2008 David F. Evans says: "I was lucky to have been the college roommate of Bill McIver as we experienced early musical life together. Hearing about his role as he child comprised one of the best periods of my life. I see the man in this child in many ways. I own a number of recordings. This one is all I really need." -96.237.7.252 (talk) 15:12, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

New material and sources
I just removed changes made by another editor because they weren't sourced. He made two significant changes. The first had no citation. In the second, he changed the assertion but left the original source. I removed the change because it didn't conform to the existing source. Frankly, though, the material that is there now doesn't conform to the source. Someone needs to look at this, or even the existing material may be removed.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:02, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Menotti's anecdote
I ran across the old family copy of the LP which had a long note from Menotti in the liner booklet which I quite enjoyed reading. Here's the second half of it which doesn't specifically pertain to Amahl, but which I thought should be published: (WIKI editors found it too long for the article)

"For the creator, the moment of nightmare in a dramatic work occurs when he finally sees his idea frozen in the realistic frame of the theatre. Something infinitely precious to the author is altered when the original poetic impulse has been translated into literal and visual terms, no matter how excellent they may be. When realized in the theatre, the work becomes suddenly a disassociated and detached entity in front of which he finds himself almost a stranger. That mysterious moment of vision has been made wonderfully and fatally concrete."

I'm sure that to the very young people the stage must appear histrionically primitive compared to the cinema and television, but to me the stage still comes the closest to that "ideal theatre", perhaps because its greater use of symbolism, imposed by its own limitations, demands of the audience a wider range of imagination and a deeper poetic sense. To me, cinema, television, and radio seem rather pale substitutes for the magic of the stage. This is the reason why, in writing "Amahl and the Night VIsitors", I intentionally disregarded the mobility of the screen and limited myself to the symbolic simplicity of the stage. The spectator who takes no journey and has no appointed time or seat but, carelessly clad, sits casually on the first available chair in his living room, and who, knitting or perhaps playing with the kitten, "turns on" what he takes to be a theatrical performance, will never know the emotion of a real theatrical experience. The theatre must be a choice—a carefully made appointment. Machiavelli, even after he retired to the country, used to don his most elaborate and richest clothes before setting to work on his books. Symbolically, at least, every artist does the same. He addresses you in utter dignity—whether his message be comic or tragic—and to partake in his experience, you must share this seriousness and receive his message wearing your "Sunday clothes." No harm is done by indulging in "mechanical boxes," nor am I trying to discourage you from listening to this recording. As a matter of fact, listening to an opera on records is a bit like courting a girl by correspondence; it has its advantages and its disadvantages. The advantages are considerable. Being unable to see the girl you are courting, you can allow your imagination to soar and lend to your loved one every sort of physical charm she may not possess in reality. The disadvantages are mainly physical ones and much too obvious to enumerate. Now—if the girl happens to be one of those ungainly, cold, intellectual individuals who write well, love at a distance is highly recommendable. But if the girl is a warm, passionate and beguiling creature, love of the flesh-and-blood variety is definitely preferable. As it happens, my operas are not cold, intellectual creatures: they are rather nice to look at, impulsive, and warm-hearted—too warm-hearted at times, so it seems. Although you may enjoy listening to their voices through a speaker, if you are to know them well, I still recommend that you should spend a evening with them at the theatre.

Willis Patterson
I was struck that Willis Patterson, the only African-American actor in the production, is the one out of the three kings who has no Wikipedia page. He was a leader and a Fullbright fellow as well as faculty at UMich -- see his page there. Could someone perhaps start up a page for him? Gus andrews (talk) 05:37, 14 May 2016 (UTC)


 * That's a great idea, and thanks for noticing. But in my experience, proposing someone else write an article is never effective. You have to do it yourself. deisenbe (talk) 10:39, 14 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I created many of the articles on the artists who have performed in Amahl. I'd be happy to create one on Patterson.4meter4 (talk) 13:42, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I started it. See Willis Patterson if you want to help expand.4meter4 (talk) 16:45, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

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