Talk:Amen break/Archive 1

Stupid image/phrase
removed the image and its caption("the most influential 5.[xx] seconds in electronic music history"). It adds nothing. -mushroom

Stupid image? Got a better idea to visualise a sample loop? STOP REMOVING STUFF OR YOU GONNA GET BANNED! I know it's not your first time...

Why visualize it in the first place? It's a 5 second audio loop. Not to mention the caption is incredibly non-NPOV, along with much of the rest of the article (but I don't feel like cleaning that up right now). I think the image is pointless, but I won't delete it completely. The caption has to change, however. -mushroom

Amen is the only loop which created a new style of music. If you can prove it wrong please do.

But why is it the most influential? You can't verify a statement like that with facts. -mushroom

It was the most influential loop in history of electronic music because it was the only time when a simple 5sec sample break created a new subculture and new style of music. It is was used in thousands of tracks and it is the most often sampled break in history. Those are the facts.

Despite the fact that it's nearly impossibile to verify the statement "most often sampled break in history," I won't dispute it, simply because it is quite possibly true. However, the phrase "the most influential 5.20 seconds in the history of electronic music" is a very opinionated phrase, and it needs to be removed, along with many other things in the article. I mean, seriously, "The amen break is still to be found in many d'n'b tracks today and every dj knows that nothing is as sure to send the crowd wild as the amen break"? come on. that kind of wording doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. -mushroom

I think the image does add a small something to the article. I edited the caption to be neutral. Dreamyshade 05:40, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I like the image. Please keep it. Omphaloscope &raquo; talk 22:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The image is useless indeed, as it is a graphical repesentation of a sound that does not tell how the sound sounds. Well the pages *looks* better but beyond that it's useless, really, it has no point. if someone can tell what it adds apart from that, i'd be happy to know. Yawn g 05:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

"Amen is the only loop which created a new style of music. If you can prove it wrong please do." If you can prove it right please do... def a strange way of approaching knowledge: if something can't be proven wrong then it's right.Yawn g 05:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

"Amen is the only loop which created a new style of music. If you can prove it wrong please do." Really? I'm not so sure, in fact, this statement is blatantly inaccurate and fails to understand how Jungle (I'm presuming this is the genre you refer to) actually evolved, and what the components of the style are. The Amen break (or any specific break for that matter) did not in itself create a style or give rise to a subculture, it was only one element of a form that combined three existing genres in one: 1. Dub Reggae (the bass line, generally composed using low frequency sine tones and commonly refered to as sub-bass) 2. Soul (the vocal snippets, sometimes pitch shifted) 3. Funk (the breaks). Of course this template was subject to variation in terms of where the underlying components were sourced; but I would argue that this is a good starting point. You must also appreciate that what initially distinguished this genre of dance music from others was the dual time feel. The bass line was in cut time, while the full tempo break rolled over the top; with the vocal elements often serving to moderate between the two extremes. The three main components had all made appearances in a multitude of music’s prior to the emergence of Jungle/DnB but it was the unique Afro-Caribbean culture in London (arguably) that gave rise to this sound. I really think there is far too much significance being attributed to the influence of the Amen break and I'm sure if you could draw producers - from back in the day - into this debate, they would agree. We could sit here and name check dozens of influences on what would eventually become Jungle/DnB the Amen break is ultimately a tiny part of the equation.

Images of sound samples may be significant
The image of the wave form may possibly be significant. When analyzing something of interest, a visual model can be very helpful. Why is this sound pattern so popular? Why does it "feel good"? Of course usually the ears are the better tool for sound, the eyes can be helpful as well. For example, an interesting take on this particular sample is provided by Michael S. Schneider's observation of the golden ratio showing up extensively in this waveform. It's not surprising to me that the ears should be just as aesthetically soothed by Phi as the eyes are. --Maxelrod (talk) 04:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Sound sample?
Any chance of getting a sound sample (or a link to one) here? Without hearing it, I have no idea how the amen break sounds. Riki 08:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I found a clip here. Click where it says: "Download des Breaks: Amen Brother (WAV/2,5MB)". I don't know if Wikipedia can host this, as it is officially copyrighted accorded to Nate Harrison's video (see external links). Omphaloscope &raquo; talk 22:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You can also watch Harrison's documentary about it. He plays the clip early in the video. Omphaloscope &raquo; talk 22:34, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course, Wikipedia can host copyrighted material under fair use provisions. I've included the clip in the article. Omphaloscope &raquo; talk 23:00, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clip! Riki 08:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed, feel free to ask me on my talk page and I'll review it personally. Thanks. ---J.S (t|c) 04:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Not most sampled
"The 'Amen Break' or 'Amen' is the most frequently used sampled drum loop in hip hop, jungle and drum and bass music"

No? If so, how do you explain that website The Breaks lists only 32 sampling songs for it as it lists 182 sampling songs, almost 6 times more, for the Funky Drummer? 

I get the feeling that it's all because that YouTube video claims that it's the most sampled break ever that it made it to this article. I mean, what backs that claim besides that video? Apparently nothing, therefore I'm editing that line, and please don't bring it back unless you can prove that it's been more frequently sampled than the Funky Drummer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.147.133.191 (talk • contribs) 06:28, December 14, 2006
 * As a non-drummer I have difficulties to distinguish between them. Happily ever after 15:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

That website has an incomplete list, due to the underground nature of dnb, drill, idm, and whatnot, thousands of songs have been created using the amen break. T-1 22:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

HaHa

I can see that many people posting on this page don't know what they are talking about.. Those people have not followed rave culture for almost 20 years. Those people have not obsessed about amen, collecting every single tune song advert sound anything that has anything to do with the amen break. Those people have never been out to a club expecting to hear nothing but amen all night,(and have it delivered) Those people don't know people that have done all those things and lots more, people that speak about amen every day, people that have had dreams about amen, people that see amen codes rolling up the screen in octamed when they close their eyes at night. Those people don't know nothing about chopping or gidiups or twissing or plain rolling. Those people don't know amen at all. And most important of all, those people don't LOVE AMEN!!! (amen geek from london)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.6.106.105 (talk) 17:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Drumming tabs
Could someone please write a caption? What do the letters mean? H=Hi-hat and S=Snare? What is the K then? Kick bass? Happily ever after 15:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not terribly useful anyway as it only shows the first bar of the break. (The rhythm changes near the end of the break.) Ben Finn 13:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The image seems to be wrong. The third K shouldn't be there. It's not there in the notation at www.joejahnigen.com, and I can't for the life of me hear it in the song. Can someone fix this? --Justin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.134.241.226 (talk) 04:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it is there as a ghost note, very quiet but there, and on the first 2 bars only. I will make a new tab, someone let me know if it's right or wrong! Tom Barlow (talk) 14:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

The tabs are wrong. I'm sure. You can check it out for yourselves in any drum machine. Here is the good one (the basic form at least): h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h- s--s--s--s-s k-k-kk-- The two snares on the offbeat (each with a HH before it) at the end give it it's distinct ending. And the two short kicks start at the middle (5th HH) with a snare right before, and they land another snare on the beat (6th HH). 89.37.145.35 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 12:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Why is this even tabbed if the music is right above it? 150.209.41.11 (talk) 02:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

the tab
The tab on this page is a bit confusing. Most drum notation has the hi-hat on the top rather than the middle. may a propose taking one from the blast beat and d-beat pages and use a similar notation? 1  +   2   +   3   +   4   +  h- x---x---x---x---x---x---x---x s- o-o---o-o b- o---o---o-o--

Barsofclay 21:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a ride, not a hi-hat. Anyone agree? Tom Barlow (talk) 13:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it's definitely a ride. Will (talk) 03:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I extended it to 4 bars of the break (adding 3 bars and leaving the bar that was already there unchanged). I researched it on the web and couldn't find any authoritative source, but I found some info in this forum and tried playing it myself. It may not be 100% accurate, but I think it has the basic structure right. Asmoe (talk) 23:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The 3+ of the last two bars of the break currently has two sixteenths on the bass drum, when on both occasions it should only be a single eighth note.

The tab in the abovementioned forum post has ride and crash simultaneously in the last bar, but the tab in the article only has the crash by itself. I'm not a drummer, so it's hard to tell or know which tab is correct. 77.40.137.24 (talk) 15:40, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

I compared the tab posted to the one provided in "Unlocking the groove: rhythm, meter, and musical design in electronic dance" by Mark Jonathan Butler, and replayed both in a drum sequencer. The one in the book is definitely closer to the original. Can it be cited? The real difference is that the one from the book got no double sixteen bass hit in the 2nd half of the 3rd and of the 4th bar. The resulting effect sounds much more like what is in the article Corpster

overhyped
I think this is just another case of overhyped urban legend. This kind of break is pervasive in most R&B and soul music of mid sixties. For a relatively mainstream example listen to the drum line in Jimi Hendrix's Fire. That was recorded in 1967. DnB took these loops an played them faster. That's all.
 * no, on the most part DnB and jungle took this loop in particular (as well as the funky drummer and the think break) and played it faster. --Kaini 17:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hip Hop
Actually the first Hip Hop track to use this break was Salt n' Peper's "I Desire" produced by Hurby "Luv Bug" Azor released in 1986. I think this section; "The first Hip-Hop producer to dismember the drum sounds of the Amen break and reprogram them into a new pattern was Mr. Mixx of 2 Live Crew on their 1987 song "Feel Alright Y'all" from the Move Somethin' album, followed by the Mantronix sample-heavy track "King of the Beats" in 1988." , needs to be rewitten to accommodate this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sureshot2k0 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"Beginning drummers are often taught it as a first exercise"
I'm a drum teacher, and I know a fair few others. I've never heard of any of them teaching this groove as a first excercise (and I certainly don't either), the various difficulties inherent in a rhythm like this would be beyond the capabilities of any drummer I'm teaching for the first time. To me it sounds like a throwaway bullshit comment. I'm loathe to remove it from the article myself as I'm not sure of the ins and outs of Wiki editing, but I thought I should definitely flag it for someone else to have a look at!-- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.31.35 (talk) 12:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Given that the section is about hip hop, perhaps it should read "Beginning hip hop drummers are often taught it as a first exercise.", does anyone actually teach "hip hop drumming"? Do hip hop drummers even use drums? Perhaps they're taught about it, not taught how to drum it. 64.231.137.251 (talk) 04:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Corporate America
"While the (less than six second) "Amen Break" is recognizable in many genres (corporate America, Hip Hop, Rock etc)," - what does that first genre sound like exactly? Lfh (talk) 06:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Mono image enough
Image:Amen break sample image.png is a image of two channels? Wouldn't a single channel be enough for a good image? Jidanni (talk) 07:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Mono image enough
Image:Amen break sample image.png is a image of two channels? Wouldn't a single channel be enough for a good image? Jidanni (talk) 07:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, this shows both the left and right channels of the sample, if you look closely some of the lines differ. Since we live in a Stereo (2 Channel) age, most things are recorded in Stereo. You are seeing both channels. 68.33.55.228 (talk) 03:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Uh, the image shows 2 bars of music, not 4. I changed it so not it is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.92.130.84 (talk) 20:12, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

errors in the notation (?)
errors in the notation.

measure 3, on 6th ride hit -> only one note is played on bassdrum, here notated with 2 16th notes.

same thing in measure 4, 6 ride hit -> should be only one bassdrum hit, not 2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Golafs (talk • contribs) 02:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Can someone with a notation editor please fix? It's one of the most important hits, responsible for genres' worth of influence in modern dance, due to the syncopation it invokes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.247.227 (talk) 08:09, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The ASCII notation appears to have been corrected. I have left a message requesting the musical notation be fixed. Should we remove it until it is fixed? --Kvng (talk) 14:09, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * ✅ I've redone it myself. There was a few errors to fix but it should be okay now. EDIT: If you still can't see it then try doing a full refresh. --Bo98 (talk) 20:35, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

No BPM?
Given how detailed this article is, especially the drum tabs, why is it not mentioned anywhere what BPM the original sample is? It's 137, but I'll leave whoever is in charge of this article to decide where to insert this vital information.


 * ✅. I've also requested the notation be updated to include this. --Kvng (talk) 13:57, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * ✅ Notation updated. EDIT: If you still can't see it then try doing a full refresh.--Bo98 (talk) 20:36, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Article in the Economist
This week's economist has an article about the Amen Break. See here for the article. It looks as though some of the unsourced statements which are on the WP page can find support here. Ben (Major Bloodnok) (talk) 08:37, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Article needs additional citations?
The tag at the top of the article says it's been up there since 2007. Even though I don't listen to this kind of music, I learned about the Amen Break from an article in The Economist. So I came here, only to discovered a well-researched, well-documented article. If there are still issues, I think they should be addressed at the lowest reasonable level. Zyxwv99 (talk) 22:27, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

BBC source
I've just added a quote sourced to this BBC article. It's a fairly in-depth treatment of the Amen break, so may well be of use in addressing sourcing issues throughout the article. Modest Genius talk 18:03, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
 * it was mentioned on PRI's The World if it's a useful reference for you at all. Link: .  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) Please &#123;&#123;re&#125;&#125; 04:08, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

MIDI File?
Other similar beats, for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-beat#Drum_beat - have Free MIDI files as examples. It'd be awesome if this page had one as well! Paging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hyacinth !! :) Miserlou (talk) 20:13, 15 August 2016 (UTC)