Talk:American Basketball Association (2000–present)

Editing out the truth
Editing out the truth about the league's problems won't make them go away. We're here to be honest -- "neutral" doesn't mean hiding the negative. It means reporting it fairly. -- Robster2001 13:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Ridiculous Expansion
I believe that the expansion is too much. They should be limited to up to five per year. - signed by an ANON IP
 * Somebody typed in Tulsa 89ers in the American Basketball Association page. Wrong, they are the 66ers of the NBA D-league! Some anon don't know pro basketball and I bet he's lost in everything. 207.200.116.202 22:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What about two teams not listed under "defunct ABA teams"?- Plano, Texas had the Plano Diamond Dogs? or the Provo Mirage, not yet played any games in 2006-07? There is a new ABA franchise for Salt Lake, Utah (and a CBA team Utah Eagles), while the ABA came to Fort Worth, Texas in 2004. The Seattle Sea-Otters franchise hasn't appeared, but the area is filled by two ABA teams (King County and Bellingham teams), and I believe the Otters gonna play in Ottawa, Canada, their team owners rejected Vancouver that already has a CBA team. The edits on future ABA teams in Boise, Idaho and Yakima, Washington are erroneous, because they are CBA members. I read in the USA Today sports page on Roswell, New Mexico may enter the ABA expansion round, but let's see how it goes before Roswell debuts in 2008-09. Oh yeah, the last edit on an ABA team for Arizona (either in Tucson or Yuma) wasn't yet verified.+ 207.200.116.202 21:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Miami Tropics
Is this team at all affiliated with the 1987-88, 1991-95 Miami Tropics of the USBL, or is the name mere coincidence? Either way it is worth mentioning. --MJHankel 17:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Article name
I'm going to move this to American Basketball Association (2000) since the dash looks wrong as part of the dab for the league name. If anyone has an objection, please speak up. Vegaswikian 18:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

If there is a problem with removing a dash, at least tell us what it is. It is not an official name obviously and the dash seems out of place for a title. This is not a biographical page.


 * The reason for the dash is that it disambiguates by the years that the league was running, this is the common disambiguator for sports teams/leagues. If you just list the 2000 then you are indicating that the league only operated for a single year. The dash without another year after it signifies that the league is ongoing. -Djsasso (talk) 13:08, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

"this is the common disambiguator for sports teams/leagues". Is this used for any other modern leagues? Why not just make it 21st century 199.89.180.65 (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Fair use images
The use of images not in compliance with our fair-use criteria or our policy on nonfree content has been removed. Please do not restore them. - M  ask?  23:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

2008-09 Expansion Teams
Just curious why all those teams were deleted? They are all listed on the ABA's website. I realize that the official webpage is questionable at best. But I haven't heard any official word on OSC or otherwise that would indicate that these teams are officially dead. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 02:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

2009-10 addition of former CBA teams
Is it true or correct that the last two CBA teams the Albany Patroons and Lawton-Fort Sill Cavalry are joining the ABA next season? About six teams postponed playing for the season, such as 3 southern California teams in Inglewood, Long Beach, Ontario and one in Yuma, Az., another based in Hawaii. The instability of the ABA 2000's version is going down the same path like the CBA and other minor basketball leagues. + 71.102.3.86 (talk) 15:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The last report I have is that Lawton Fort Sill is joining the PBL. Still waiting for an official announcement. LightningMan (talk) 15:36, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Confirmed, the Cavalry will not be an ABA team, and the Los Angeles area teams aren't fully accurate. The Red Wolves are in Ontario, Canada (pardon me), while the "Inland Empire Linx" are expected to play in the CitizensBank Arena in Ontario, California, USA. The Albany Patroons could go independent of any league, in the same manner the Harlem Globetrotters have, but are more of an entertainment venue other than a professional sports team. The Patroons and Globetrotters were one of the original NBA teams in the 1940's, but each left the league for different reasons (the Globetrotters we know well of) and the Patroons went on in the CBA as a secondary basketball league in 1948. + 71.102.3.86 (talk) 15:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Sportslogo edit flurry
The user Sportslogo (talk) decided that he needed to totally redesign the page, including adding two tables that would make this page the longest in the history of Wikipedia (by my judgment) when completed, given the year-to-year history of this league.

Given the huge number of teams in the ABA and the even more huge number that have passed through the ABA over the years, I find his tables to be far too much of a chore to keep up for their value, especially since when notified of errors at the PBL page his response was that I should fix his errors rather than he correcting them himself.

I am advising him that I will continue to revert his edits until he presents a cogent defense for *all* of his desired changes to this page. LightningMan (talk) 13:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I love your how you reply "it's the longest page in wikipedia". Well, it's not the longest page. Not even close, the NFL's wikipedia page is much longer, almost double in size of the ABA2000 wikipedia page. The table listing ABA's team, nickname, arena, and city is accurate. I double checked the table, source abalive.com. Why do you feel you are the mouthpiece of PBL, ABA, and all of minor league basketball on wikipedia? I don't understand why you need to result to name calling, "pest", "what are you, six", that is uncalled for and you should take the high road. Someone of your status shouldn't lower yourself to name calling, you are better than that. There is no reason to remove the table, every league has the same table, there is no reason the table should be removed and no reason the ABA should be treated different just because you don't agree with the decision or look.(Sportslogo (talk) 16:11, 30 July 2009 (UTC))


 * If you would actually read what I wrote, you would see that I wrote that adding both tables would make it the longest page in the history of Wikipedia due to the parade of teams through this league, not that it *is* the longest page. I base that on the number of teams on the defunct page.


 * As to your argument that every team has the table, not every team has the year by year history of the teams in the league, the table that for this league would increase the page size greatly. Moreover, even just listing all the teams in the ABA is a difficult process given their spotty history.


 * I don't feel anything. I found your edits disruptive and without value and I am asking you to justify them in the case of *this specific league*.


 * I also notice the only justification you give for including the tables is that other pages have them. How about you address my two concerns, which are the maintenance of the huge team table given that just keeping the team names up to date has proven nearly fruitless and the size of the year-to-year table given the huge number of defunct and expatriate teams this league has had?


 * Looking at your user talk, this isn't the first league where your edits have been unwelcome and found erroneous, detrimental, or both. I suggest that *you* learn how to work with people, starting right now. LightningMan (talk) 16:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Your errors: Juarez, Nuevo Leon (expansion team), Oakland Phantoms (listed on abalive as Oakland), Fayetteville Flight (not even listed on abalive), Valdosta Warriors (not even listed on abalive), Salem Mustangs (not listed on abalive), Smoky Mountain Jam (not listed on abalive), Austin Capitals (not listed anymore, Austin, TX will be expansion team), Grand Rapids Flight (not listed, Grand Rapids is expansion team), Everett Longshoremen (not listed on abalive), Portland Stumpers (listed as Portland), Spokane Sunz (listed as Spokane, WA), Walla Walla Aggies (Listed as Walla Walla). Not I mentioned numerous errors, fix the errors and list source. You list the aba standings page (http://www.abalive.com/standings/standings.html) as source, which by the way goes directly to dead page (come on man, you can't even list a live page). Now, we are following "the league lists" example as you complained about the PBL wikipedia page, now we can't even follow ABA's official web site? Double standard, my friend. Please list your sources on wikipedia for all your errors. I mean, even http://www.abamagazine.com/pageteams.html doesn't list some of your teams. We need to follow your source (aba live) or you need to stop making team names up if you don't have a source. (Sportslogo (talk) 16:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC))

Dude, as you yourself have pointed out, this isn't my page. If you see errors, challenge them or fix them. LightningMan (talk) 16:29, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * All of your challenges have been met. LightningMan (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I repeat: I will revert your edits until you address my two concerns as well as give any justification for these tables other than "other pages have them". LightningMan (talk) 18:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have all day, all year, I won't go to sleep. It's too hard to find information on teams by clicking all over, knowing the ABA, they change divisions every day. No reason not to include the cities and arenas in one page. Challenge has been met. (Sportslogo (talk) 18:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC))
 * Instead of having a war, just address my concerns, dude. LightningMan (talk) 18:25, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Lightningman is using the "take my ball and go home". He doesn't the like table for some reason. 1.which are the maintenance of the huge team table given that just keeping the team names up to date has proven nearly fruitless
 * Answer: The huge table will be easily maintained once the information comes out. Last time, I checked teams' arenas don't change that often and they don't move away mid-season. The updating will be easy, the only difference is arenas and cities that will not change during the season.
 * 2. the size of the year-to-year table given the huge number of defunct and expatriate teams this league has had?
 * Answer: This is opinion, what's a huge number? that's opinion, someone could consider 5 teams huge, others 50, 23, etc. (Sportslogo (talk) 18:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC))

Look at List of defunct ABA teams. That is huge. That's not opinion. That's a fact. And you gave the reason for the first table as, in essence, your laziness, in that you didn't want to look at the individual team pages for the information. The information does change nearly daily which means a maintenance nightmare. Your only justification for either table is that some other pages have one. And on the ABA page it will be problematic. Period. LightningMan (talk) 18:40, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, with the name calling. Yes, I did look at the team pages for their information. No, the definition of huge you are giving is opinion. Someone might consider huge - 50, small - 20, etc.(Sportslogo (talk) 19:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC))
 * Perhaps you should look up the definition of a name. I didn't call you anything. I paraphrased "It's too hard to find information on teams by clicking all over..." as "in essence, your laziness" LightningMan (talk) 20:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Country(ies) United States, Bahamas
Why is "Bahamas" there? Skywatcher68 (talk) 19:40, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * At one point there was a team called the Bahama All-Pro Show. No idea if that team is still in the league. LightningMan (talk) 02:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

June 2010
I see a brand new user account that has only edited on this page is trying to remove the entire history section. My guess is someone thinking by hiding the facts behind how this league is run they will somehow get more people wanting "Market Reservations". Mateinsixtynine (talk) 23:31, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I left a comment at User_talk:SportsPHD trying to explain Wikipedia policy. If reverts continue after protection expires at 04:22 on 5 June, I think that blocks may be necessary. This article has also been mentioned at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/BasketballHistorian and WP:AN3. EdJohnston (talk) 21:29, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Section POV regarding 2010 initiatives
The language of the section I marked sounds like selling copy, as if it was taken directly from a press release. I think it needs a rewrite. LightningMan (talk) 19:54, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The user who wrote that has disappeared. The only parts worth keeping is a mention of the expansion and maybe the World Basketball Cup (as if that will happen).  A couple games against Philippines National Team could be keepable.  The $200mln figure appears to be a number plucked from thin air as the only mention of the person behind it is a news article where the guy got a cruise ship taken for failure to pay taxes.  He definitely does not have $200mln. Mateinsixtynine (talk) 23:18, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Removed most of it, reduced ABA Global to ancillary mention to the game against the Philippines, found neutral source for Philippines informaton. LightningMan (talk) 19:45, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Adding The New Teams
Would someone like to help with adding articles for the new expansion franchises? Marlinite (talk) 05:03, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't get into too big of a hurry. A lot of the new teams will disappear before December.  Mateinsixtynine (talk) 19:03, 15 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah. And could we ever get a schedule? Marlinite (talk) 17:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Merge expansion team articles
The Atlanta Aliens article does not have independent sources to justify a standalone article per general notability guideline. I am proposing to merge and redirect the article into this ABA article. —Bagumba (talk) 23:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Why does he want to tear the house down while it's still being built? Tom Danson (talk) 13:18, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a concern of whether the "house" is built using questionable materials. Wikipedia relies on third party sources to establish notability.  Atlanta Aliens was tagged for general notability concerns, and the article is also about a future franchise.  While the ABA is notable, the individual franchises might not be.  Also, the notable information in the Aliens article already appears captured in American Basketball Association (2000–present).  It seems reasonable to redirect the Aliens article to the general ABA article, with no prejudice to the Aliens article being expanded later if reliable sources deem it notable of a standalone article.  If this is not acceptable, I ask that reliable independent sources be identified for the Aliens article or an article for deletion will be opened. —Bagumba (talk) 17:08, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Contrary to what Joe Newman would have you believe, the ABA is not comparable to fast food or retail chains. The franchises still use the single brand; the ABA does not. Tom Danson (talk) 21:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Please provide the independent reliable sources as requested. Otherwise, merge/redirect seems like a better option than an AfD —Bagumba (talk) 22:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You're starting to sound pretty uncivil...right now this is between the two of us. Tom Danson (talk) 03:29, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * My two cents are that since the ABA is largely a money making scheme for Joe Newman, until the team actually hits the court an article isn't warranted. Adding the Atlanta Aliens, Calgary Crush etc. is largely an exercise in futility until it actually plays a game. There are several stillborn ABA teams on Wikipedia and largely are not notable. Outside of super fans of the ABA and followers on Oursportscentral, I doubt you could find anyone who had ever heard of the stillborn Ontario Red Wolves. I'm against merging the article into the league article, I think it should be deleted and once it actually plays a game, then an article could be added. Unlike the majority of pro basketball leagues, the ABA is different. Awarding an expansion fee based on someone giving Joe Newman the market reservation fee, doesn't mean the team will ever see the light of day beyond the internet. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 03:40, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * And mine are that any team which turns out never beginning play can be merged and redirected here. For now, let's give these teams a chance! Tom Danson (talk) 12:57, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There-I added an independent source. Can we close this now? Tom Danson (talk) 15:47, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for helping to improve the sourcing. However, WP:GNG requires multiple sources of significant, non-WP:ROUTINE coverage from independent sources.  The new source is more about Norris Bell and the Moncton Miracles, with trivial mention of Atlanta Aliens.  In any event, this is only one independent source uncovered in one month.  Can we come to a consensus that a merge is appropriate now, with no prejudice to recreate the article if sufficient sources are later found, or should more opinions be solicited? I seems that Wikipedia should only report when reliable sources exist. —Bagumba (talk) 16:31, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Look, the Aliens aren't getting in the New York Times, USA Today, or the Wall Street Journal anytime soon. The league is notable, so all its teams are too.  And that "franchise" argument you used-the example only brings up retail chains which use the single brand, rather then teams which all use different brands.  Why so uncivil? Tom Danson (talk) 16:46, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * As for your question, you're the only one who seems to care about this. Why not see what other Wikipedians think as they come over here (Keep in mind, I am a member of the Association of Inclusionist Wikipedians, so that may come as some sort of bias).  Of course, neither of us are admins, so this is likely to go on for the next few weeks-by the time it's done, there will be reliable sources enough to settle this once and for all. Tom Danson (talk) 16:51, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

An Afd has been started at Articles for deletion/Atlanta Aliens to get a clearer consensus. —Bagumba (talk) 18:26, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Adding teams and WP:RS
As a reminder, one should try to use Reliable Sources when adding in new teams. If no information can be found on a team name, even from ABA site, shouldn't add the name. If the only claim is on a team's page, that's not really reliable either. Finally, for me anyways, since its tough to find a reliable source (abalive isn't reliable since there's still teams listed that haven't played in 2 years), I at least look for a team schedule or appearance on other team's schedules to verify if a team is playing or not. I do notice, though, some pools (looking at Detroit especially) have a fear that someone might actually want to attend their games and won't put any schedule out. LionMans Account (talk) 20:43, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Kentucky Travelers
Were the Kentucky Travelers ever truly associated with this league as it claims in their article? If so, in which seasons? I'm trying to find evidence of this so I can at least link to them from the defunct teams article. It's currently an orphan article. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 15:50, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Usbasket seems to mention the existence of such a team . Other than that, it seems like one of the hundreds of "travel teams" that play a few fill-in games then disappears.  Personally, I'd just delete the article as it doesn't meet WP:GNG. LionMans Account (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I agree with the prod.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 20:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

New ABA teams
I've updated the team list to match the league website. Since the season just started and many teams are playing abbreviated or partial schedules they may have not had a official game yet. TheScottDL (talk) 23:25, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Personally, I believe if a team has 0 games scheduled or is playing a very limited schedule (let's say <5 games for now), they shouldn't be listed here. Teams that are already regularly canceling games should be removed too.  LionMans Account (talk) 00:17, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Please stop removing teams from the list. The list is current - I have visited team websites and teams are scheduled. FYI, the ABA stats site does NOT list every game right now (I work with two teams that have incomplete schedules). TheScottDL (talk) 20:49, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Maybe you read WP:V. If a team has no schedule listed, they shouldn't be listed here.  Same with teams with very few games scheduled.  If they don't publish a schedule, that's their problem.  Maybe they should consider it though.  And if they are not playing any games or cancelling (like Buckeye Show currently), they shouldn't be listed. LionMans Account (talk) 21:03, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Since it appears I have to justify every removal here, let's see:

Central Valley Titans - 2 games scheduled for this season, 1 actually played Buckeye Show 5 scheduled games, last one a few weeks ago, none played, www site not updated and facebook has no relevant content (corrected) Louisiana Cajun All-Stars, games removed except one that wasn't played yesterday, no scheduled games Philadelphia Spirit, 1 scheduled game in Feb, that's it for the season. Texas Cardinals, no longer on aba site, same owner as Cajun All-Stars, no schedule or anything If you have private information, that's fine, but it really isn't usable if nobody is allowed to see it. LionMans Account (talk) 21:23, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

2016-2017 season
I saw the short section about the 2016-2017 season and it needs an update to add more infos about the season. --Sd-100 (talk) 20:24, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Should we keep the team listings?
Should we keep the team listings here? They haven't been seriously updated for a few years now. It looks like nobody really want to take care of it either. Unlike most leagues, it is extremely difficult to get something relatively accurate here since teams come and go pretty quickly. Teams are regularly announced then immediately disappear. Aside from that, if we choose to keep it, how should team listings to be done? Should we keep some standards or just use the random mess the ABA site has?

Personally, I would suggest removing the listing and suggest checking the ABA site if someone is actually interested. LionMans Account (talk) 01:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You don't need a full-blown thirty-day formal RfC for this, especially since I can find no evidence that WP:RFCBEFORE was observed. Discuss it here in the normal manner by all means; and if you want to attract wider participarion, you may leave a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball directing people here. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 21:06, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
 * If it's possible to verifiably update it, I'd suggest tagging it with update section. However, if sourcing is questioned, tag it with Unreferenced section or similar.—Bagumba (talk) 14:43, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That's the problem. It can be done, but its a lot of work too.  The official listings has teams that have quit the league, teams that never existed, teams that haven't played in years, and a lot of placeholder city names.  Basically, someone who does it will be doing more work keeping the listings up-to-date than the people who run this league do. LionMans Account (talk) 16:02, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I tagged it for updates. No objection if you or others more knowledgeable about the league than me feel deletion is a better approach here.—Bagumba (talk) 11:51, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Since its been 8 months and no serious attempts to fix it, I removed the listings. The same problems still exist as before:  no idea whose playing and no good way to verify whose actually playing.  If someone wants to actually fix it, feel free to add it back in.  LionMans Account (talk) 16:18, 23 October 2021 (UTC)