Talk:American Council of Private Colleges and Universities

Third Party resolution
This article is in dispute whether it should be redirected to Hamilton University or to leave it as a separate article.

Redirect
I see my redirect was deleted from the page's history. This really should be redirected to Hamilton University because according to CBS News' 60 Minutes' report "Degrees for Sale" this is a front group for Hamilton. CBS reported "Hamilton’s Web site claims the school is accredited," but "But it turns out the accreditation board, like the referral service, was set up by Hamilton, for Hamilton." Arbusto 09:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Read American Council of Private Colleges and Universities again. I made some important changes to reflect what you said. If you want to expand on the article please do but making a redirect was not appropriate. --Scott Grayban 09:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Please read the 60 minutes article. This is not a "group" nor does it "accredit" schools. It is set up by one man for one fake school, Hamilton (now Richardson University). This should be merged. Unless you have an independent source that is group (ie contradicts the 60 Minutes investigation) it is part of the Hamilton article. Arbusto 09:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * And another source demonstrating only one school (Hamilton) is "accredited" by it. Arbusto 10:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

American State University and Island Family Christian Church
American State University moved to Wyoming and became Hamilton then Hamilton moved to the Bahamas and became Richardson. Guess what, Island Family Christian Church has the same address as American State University according to John Bear. Arbusto 11:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge disputed
There are other reasons why this article should remain separate of Hamilton. Its either a front and/or back by numerious other organizations and even some religious ones. The article can be used as a focal point to all of them. Hamilton is only one part of this. --Scott Grayban 11:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) What proof (I've asked this three times now) do you have that any other school is connectioned to this "group"? 2) If any article should be the "focal point" it is the most famous out of the front groups according to media sources. That is far and away, Hamilton. 3) What evidence do you have that "Hamilton is only one part of this"? Arbusto 11:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This article expands on the numerious scams that come directly out of or from it. The Hamilton University article pertains to its sole function to sell fake degree's from its school. This article does not. It expands on where it branches out and all the scams that come from it. --Scott Grayban 12:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Please provide evidence for "the numerious scams that come directly out of or from it." Arbusto 12:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Council_of_Private_Colleges_and_Universities#Questionable_Organization --Scott Grayban 12:21, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * That isn't helpful nor what I asked. I want proof that Hamilton and ACPCU are separable (the other two "organizations" were created by the Hamilton operator and they all shared the same address). This would demonstrate why a merge isn't needed. Arbusto 19:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry for weighing in, if this group accredits schools then we need an article for it. If it is just a front for Hamilton then the two articles might be profitably merged. However, if it does not accredit, why is it listed on our List of unrecognized accreditation associations of higher learning? Also can someone explain why the NPOV tag was added to this? -- JJay 12:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It does not accredited any other schools. It only accredits Hamilton and the other two fronts for Hamilton. Arbusto 19:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I added the POV tag because the dispute is whether to merge this into the Hamilton page or not. I say no because it isn't Hamilton University but rather a front for it to get support. However ACPCU is also supported by other fake organizations which are not tired to Hamilton University at all. So where do you merge that? --Scott Grayban 12:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok let me put in a structure that I hope you understand. The article says "American Council of Private Colleges and Universities" which has its own website. It does not say "American Council of Private Colleges and Universities and Hamilton University". If it had I would agree to a point that it should redirect but it doesn't. "American Council of Private Colleges and Universities" is a totally new subject on who backs it and who they are associated with. That does not mean that "Hamilton University" isn't part of it. It would be the same as saying the CIA should be part of the US Homeland Security site since they are now connected in the US Gov. --Scott Grayban 12:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Just because it has its own webpage doesn't mean it gets an article, when the two are inseparable. Arbusto 19:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your response. I would tend to agree at this point that a merge seems premature. Even if they are functionally close, why not have two articles? Having said that, the NPOV tag may also be premature because the dispute looks to be centred on the merge and not on the underlying content. Perhaps you could remove the tag? -- JJay 12:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Guys, can you just cool it please? This fight makes no sense.  The article clearly identifies that this is an accreditation mill; the way forward is to identify which, if any, other institutions claim its accreditation.  If, in time, it becomes clear that this is funtionally inseparable from Hamilton, so be it, but in the mean time there is little chance of anyone being misled, as the article makes it perfectly plain that this is not a reputable body. Neither of you seems to hold any brief for these charlatans or their degree mills, so why not work together?  Arbustoo, you in particular should see the value of another potential ally. Just zis Guy you know? 12:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I moved the article to my userspace. Its just not worth fighing over about a redirect. I can expand on this article better without having to constantly revert my changes with Arbusto although a redirect will have to be justified with a valid reason or it will be deleted just as it was before when Arbusto tried it. --Scott Grayban 12:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No, an adminstrator, admittly speedied it due as a "stretch" of the criteria. A redirect will not be deleted. Arbusto 19:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge
If there is no evidence offered that this is independent from Hamilton it will be merged. As mentioned before the supposed church and American State University shared the same address. American was the name of Hamilton before it moved to Wyoming. Arbusto 00:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If it is merged, I would expect that it will then be removed from List of unrecognized accreditation associations of higher learning since you are saying that it is not an accreditor. -- JJay 00:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It is an accreditor. An accreditor of one "school." Arbusto 01:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If it is an accreditor, then I think we need this article. Who is to say that they will not accredit other schools in the future. If it is just part of the school, then it is not an accreditor. -- JJay 01:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:ISNOT a crystal ball. However, two sources (CBS News and John Bear) claimed it was set up "by Hamilton, for Hamilton." Was it set up by Hamilton for Hamilton? Yes. Does its and Hamilton's claim it is an accreditation group? Yes. Numerous watchers of diploma mills list this as a suspect accreditation agency, wikipedia should too. Arbusto 01:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Since it exists as an accrediting agency per this article, I think the article should be maintained. I'm not convinced that merging is a solution. -- JJay 01:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Proof that accredits more than just Hamilton-related businesses? Arbusto 03:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)