Talk:American Mafia/Archive 1

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Citing Sources
I've removed some of the Citation Needed tags from the article. How is anyone supposed to find a source for the influence of the Mafia in American cities? They'd be killed if they did. Pongley (talk) 14:23, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

redirect?
Since "American Mafia" has never been a name used to describe the mob in the U.S. (only used to describe here on Wikipedia), can I recommend that it be redirected to something like Mafia (North American organization)? I don't know what should be in parentheses, but it is more accurate to just call the article Mafia with something in parentheses, since that's the name most likely used to describe both the U.S. Mafia and the Sicilian Mafia. Thank you.71.194.114.35 (talk) 05:02, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Membership
"In 1986, according to government reports[citation needed], it was estimated that there were 500 members of Cosa Nostra and thousands of associate members." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.132.210.122 (talk) 23:50, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

500 members of Cosa Nostra? The Genovese or Gambino families already have 200-300 members. The number will rather be 4000-5000 members of Cosa Nostra in the United States. There are definitely more than 500 members of Cosa Nostra in New York alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.132.210.122 (talk) 23:49, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

American Mafia would be an appropiate title for the article when you consider that not only was "La Costra Nostra" composed of Italians but other figures as well; who play a vital role in the current structure we have today. In particular "Meyer Lansky", respecfully a Jew. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.251.114 (talk) 21:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

drug thing
what's the deal with drug running not being allowed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.82.44.253 (talk) 18:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

AN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION>>>> Drugs were not allowed because it was a very risky business, too risky most felt. If you saw the Godfather part 1, they discuss this. It was just like that...very simple...too much heat. In the late 60's early 70's Carmine Galante (columbos) was big into heroin. Check out the 'pizza connection'. ZIPS had a lot to do with it. VIVA ITALIA...FORZA!!!!!!!!!!! PER TUTTO —Preceding unsigned comment added by RT10385 (talk • contribs) 04:13, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Are you taking heroin yourself, sinebot? Because it's pretty much accepted by anyone with any knowledge that the American Mafia have been heavily involved in heroin smuggling for decades now. It is discussed in The godfather part 1, but since that's a work of fiction, and since there were few - if any - reservations about drugs from the real-life gangsters of the time (50s and 60s), we can't use it as a reference point, can we? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.199.96 (talk) 05:35, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Drugs as a public image, do you really know the LCN for drugs? NO! More traditional crime, extortion/protection rackets, gambling, union rackets e.t.c .. Imagin also their kids on smack and coke they keep it out of their own neighborhoods beleive me —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.3.25 (talk) 22:38, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Move? (2011)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Jenks24 (talk) 09:25, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

American Mafia → American mafia –
 * Not a proper name like Cosa Nostra Brand meister  t 21:19, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not only Wiktionary, but more importantly reliable sources such as Merriam-Webster, The Free Dictionary, and Dictionary.com (citing Random House Dictionary, Collins English Dictionary, and The American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy) do treat it as a proper noun in cases such as this article, where the word refers to a specific organization. Fat&#38;Happy (talk) 15:45, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Fat&#38;Happy. ---  RepublicanJacobite  TheFortyFive 16:40, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * oppose This is a proper noun, which is defined as a 'particular person, place or thing' which this American Mafia is most certainly. Hmains (talk) 06:22, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merger proposal (2012)
I suggest the merging the article The Mafia during Prohibition into this article's Prohibition era section. --Vic49 (talk)  21:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I vote Merge. I see no benefit in having this as a separate article. Rogermx (talk) 22:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Support the merge too. Looking at its history I'd say it wasn't even intentionally created with the potential to beef it up to the point where it would truly stand alone. --Lenin and McCarthy |  (Complain here) 03:20, 6 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Support, the section should of only been spun off if this article was too long, after merging it won't be. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - Anything in that article can be put in this one. A separate article is not necessary. --Ted87 (talk) 19:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

National Crime Syndicate, can someone help on this subject?
Can someone explain what the National Crime Syndicate was and it's history? I'm a little confused about what it is. Was it what the Mafia called it or a press created name? Was the American Mafia part of it?

My understanding was it was the unification of the organized crime families throughout the U.S., it was mainly made up of the Jewish organized families and the Italian organized crime families, it's enforcement arm was Murder, Inc., and the ruling body was the Commission, which included jewish and italian gangsters.

Was the National Crime Syndicate the predecessor to the Italian American Mafia we know today? Is the National Crime Syndicate defunct? and if it's defunct, does only the Italian American Mafia and Commission exist? Does the Commission today only comprise of the Italian American Mafia and italian gangsters?

Was the Italian American Mafia we know today part of it?

and Mainly, should the sentence in the American Mafia article "The press also coined the name "National Crime Syndicate" to refer to the entire network of U.S. organized crime, which included the Jewish-American organized crime elements and the Italian-American Mafia." be changed?

I'm asking a lot, but I don't know about this organization and if the Italian Mafia was part of it.

If someone can answer, it'd be much appreciated. Thank You.PeaceShield5 (talk) 17:00, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The NCS was just a network of organized crime families/figures across the country. Although the various factions were allies and did business with each other, there was no master coordination or governing body. The press did coin the term, but they made the NCS seem a lot more formal than it really was. It was mainly made up of Italian and Jewish organized crime figures and Murder, Inc. did perform contract killings for the them (but Murder Inc. was only based in the New York area). The Commission was the ruling body of the Mafia itself, not the entire NCS. However, since the Italian American Mafia was so powerful, Commission decisions did have an effect on the rest of NCS. I think the wiki article National Crime Syndicate does a decent job of explaining it. Hope that helped. --Ted87 (talk) 00:58, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Mistake while trying to remove broken links and tabloid sourcesFactsOnlyRule (talk) 11:22, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Renaming the Article (2008)

 * The following discussion is closed. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Does anyone think this article should be renamed 'Italian American Mafia' or 'Italian-American Mafia' and then make this article a redirect to that name? If so, we should do this with a 'legal' article MOVE request and not cut/paste work, which loses editing history. Thanks Hmains (talk) 02:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know anything about one name versus the other, so I'm not going weigh in on that. Is "Italian-American" a more common term? JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 03:42, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

If this page gonna remain "American Mafia" over "Italian-American mafia", why no paragraph on Irish-American Mob, Russian-American Mobsers and Polish-American Mobsers. (contribs) 21:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by G-rad (talk • contribs)


 * If that's your reason for moving it, it can be discussed, just no more copy+pasting. That creates big headaches. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 19:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


 * I agree with this request, wikipedia is the only webpage using the term "American Mafia" exclusively to the Italian American mafia. Many mob organizations exist in the United States, such as various Irish, Jewish, and Latin American groups. I think it would be best to do what user Hmains suggested. RiseRobotRise (talk) 05:46, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree, it should be renamed Italian American Mafia. Also I believe something should be done to somehow merge this page and the Sicilian Mafia page since they are pretty much the same entity/organization, the only differences are pretty much where they operate but they're essentially the same thing, just one is here in America and one is in Sicily. The TM11 (talk) 08:15, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 19 July 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 17:35, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

American Mafia → Italian American Mafia – No one else refers to it as the American Mafia, it is known as the Italian Mafia or Italian American Mafia The TM11 (talk) 08:15, 19 July 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 18:03, 26 July 2015 (UTC)


 * If there is a move, it should be to Italian-American Mafia per WP:HYPHEN #3 (link related terms in compound modifiers with a hyphen). —  AjaxSmack  04:52, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment it's been called the American Mob, and also "American Mafia" such as this book  -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:06, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * As I said though it is generally not referred to as the American Mafia, it's typically referred to as the Italian Mafia or just The Mafia, research all other things and it's mostly referred to those terms. The TM11 (talk) 11:19, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * If the compound is to be used, a hyphen is required because "Italian-American" is being used to modify a noun. RGloucester  — ☎ 13:55, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Would the hyphen be necessary? When referring to Italian Americans as people a hyphen is not used, so does it need to be used when referring to the Italian American Mafia? The TM11 (talk) 18:16, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. When used as an adjective, "Italian-American" requires a hyphen. When used as a noun, it does not. Example: "He was an Italian-American writer", but "He is an Italian American". RGloucester  — ☎ 22:31, 20 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment. This is one of those terms that is completely inaccurate. The mafia is an exclusively Italian occurrence, and although Italian immigrants did start particularly notorious organised crime syndicates in the US, their current association with Italy is nonexistent beyond sharing drug routes and such. Calling it American mafia is a misnomer; more appropriate terms would be American mobs or Organised Crime in the US. For the life of me I can't figure out why 5th or 6th generation Americans would be still called Italian-Americans. You don't call Smiths or Johnsons English-Americans, do you? FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 22:20, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Actually, it's commonly known simply as "the Mafia" and nothing else. Given we can't call it that due to the Sicilian Mafia I think the present title is fine. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:31, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Can't this and the Sicilian Mafia page be combined though? They're the same organization just one faction is in America and the other is in Sicily; but the rules, ranks, structure, operations, etc. are all the same. You're right it is simply known as "The Mafia" but unfortunately people use that term to describe other criminal organizations which is inaccurate, I'd say the best course of action is combine this page with the Sicilian Mafia page and just have the title as "Italian Mafia" since that is what the entire organization is widely referred to. The TM11 (talk) 04:39, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * While there is a common terminology derived from a common organizational ancestry, I think the U.S. offshoot has enough notability, separate history, and cast of characters to justify a separate article. OTOH, if the articles were to be merged, the title should simply be "Mafia". The real original Mafia is Italian by definition, and of all the Johnny-come-latelys and wannabes using a variation on the name, this is the only one commonly referred to without any required disambiguation. 2600:1006:B11F:BBE0:B945:D20A:9451:85D (talk) 05:00, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * While that may be true historically, I think in English-language sources "Mafia" alone and without qualification or context almost always refers to the American organisation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:35, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * So than what would be the best course of action? Should the articles remain separate or should they be combined? And if combined what should the title be? We could also merge the Mafia article along with them since it is the real original Mafia and than have a disambiguation page for all the other so-called mafias or mobs. The TM11 (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose. "Mafia" implies criminal organization of Italian origin, so the proposal creates a redundancy. Gulangyu (talk) 11:05, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Well since that's the case shouldn't we merge this and the Sicilian Mafia article with the Mafia article. I agree that the article should just be called "Mafia" or "The Mafia" but we would have to merge three different articles to make it happen. I'm more than willing to put in the work but I would like some help and hopefully get an administrator involved to also lend a hand and approve of the merger. The TM11 (talk) 09:40, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Mafia is the parent article, and American and Sicilian Mafia are legitimate spinout articles. Given the actual weight of the articles and their potential of further expansion, merging the three articles in one would result in an incredibly large article if not in a mess. Cavarrone 09:55, 2 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Gulangyu. Cavarrone 09:55, 2 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

history of the Mafia
The text says the following: "Emigration from southern Italy to the Americas was primarily to Brazil and Argentina, and New Orleans had a heavy volume of port traffic to and from both locales." This is not entirely correct. Italian emigration to Brazil was quite important indeed. Many Brazilians as well as many Argentines are of Italian ancestry. However in most cases the origin of that emigration was the north end of Italy, mostly the region of Venice, rather than the south. Southern Italians emigrated mostly to New York, while Northern Italians moved mostly to São Paulo. Also, most of the Italian emigration to South America happened in the end of the 19thcentury / beginning of the 20th century continuing through WW1. The Veneto region was heavily fustigated by the war with Austria-Hungary during WW1. The reason of the mass flee of people to South America was also to flee the war.


 * Reliable Source? 98.67.186.108 (talk) 15:45, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

“Italy and Sicily”
Why does the article keep naming Italy and Sicily as if they were different entities? Sicily IS a part of Italy. It’s like saying “the United States and Florida”.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp (talk) 14:44, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

for example "blood line needs to come from Italy or Sicily." It's like saying "blood line needs to come from the United States or Louisiana". is it really necessary?Idonthavetimeforthiscarp (talk) 14:47, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Same political entity, but a very distinct culture resides in Sicily (for reasons why, consult your local specialty sources), and this terminology is both common and correct. 98.67.186.108 (talk) 15:47, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

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