Talk:American Pharoah

Thanks
Thanks to all who helped improve the article by putting it into a more US English idiom. I've been writing articles of US racehorses for years but I still lapse into "colour", "favourite", "2 May" and can't help putting the definite article into constructions like "by eight lengths from THE Southwest Stakes winner Far Right".  Tigerboy1966  22:18, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * It's all good fun, and you still get kudos for all the hard work!  Montanabw (talk)  03:18, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Hear, hear (and don't forget "whilst"). —BarrelProof (talk) 00:29, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If he wins the Belmont and achieves GA status, do we all get Barnstars? &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 18:03, 23 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Ponies! actually... LOL!  Montanabw (talk)  03:46, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Why does it say Country: Great Britain? He was bred in Kentucky. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.136.82.238 (talk) 23:27, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Bloodline
I've expanded the section to include fifth- and sixth-generation notables including Secretariat and Tom Fool, a horse who also figures separately in his seventh and eighth generations. I've resisted bringing up Nasrullah, Miss Disco (who appears three times in his bloodline and who is notable as the grandam of Secretariat), Heliopolis, War Admiral and Man o' War, though I am struck by how often they come up in the sixth through tenth generations, War Admiral five times, and Man o' War in an astonishing 15 instances. Very interesting if you are curious about these things! &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 01:37, 23 May 2015 (UTC)


 * That's cool stuff. If you can find an online analysis of the bloodlines, those usually have good stuff too.  I did swap out equineline for pedigreequery because - even though pedigreequery is way easier to use -- pedigreequery can be edited by anyone (kind of like imdb) and may occasionally have errors. (I basically go find the pedigree and cite equineline once I find the stuff in pedigreeque, lol... )  Take a look at what I did last year with California Chrome to get the general idea.  Right about now, someone is doing an analysis, we just have to find it.   Montanabw (talk)  03:49, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * You mean, pedigreequery is like an online encyclopedia ANYONE can edit?!? Horrors!! &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 14:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep! End of civilization, ya know... ;-)   Montanabw (talk)  17:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Comments to everyone
Hey all, as we work on this article, I am going to beseech everyone to try and keep consistent footnote citation format as you go. First off, because a lot of the same writers contribute multiple stories, I've found it simplest in other articles to do for the ref names. Also, if this article goes to FAC, (which I will be tempted to do), the low-hanging fruit for FAC reviewers is the nitpick the citation formatting totally to death! If possible, can we say Blood-Horse instead of Bloodhorse.com and such? (Usually this just means making a couple of manual tweaks if you use refill) Also, while we can certainly by consensus change the formatting style, whatever it is, it has to be consistent and make use of the citation templates—manual formatting looks OK, but the FAC gnomes whine about it...and I choose my battles :-P. I'm cool with mostly using citeweb and the others available via the pull-down menu in the editing box, or you can do the raw urls and run refill - IF you manually tweak the parameters it misses and check the "access date" parameter so that it is not omitted. But pleasepleaseplease do - it's such a pain to go fix them later (and we always miss a few anyway). See Featured article candidates/California Chrome/archive1, Featured article candidates/Oxbow (horse)/archive1, and Featured article candidates/Mucho Macho Man/archive1 if you doubt the intensity of the gauntlet... :-P I'll go through and fix anything that's in there now that I spot, but if everyone else can keep their own cites similar, I'd be ever so grateful! Montanabw (talk) 04:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Parking sources

 * More on the yearling buyback: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/shared_content.cfm?id=2739
 * Fascinating. Have incorporated it as a source, but wish the article had a date. &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 21:17, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I think I can figure it out by sorting back through the archives.  Montanabw (talk)  17:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Family 14
Queen Zetta (see her Equineline bloodline here) is marked on the Wikipedia Pedigree chart as "Family:14". Do we have a reliable source for that, or a reliable source confirming American Pharoah in Family 14 by mitochondrial DNA? Is there a publicly-accessible database we could reference?

American Pharoah's tail-male ancestry, of course, can be traced back through Eclipse to the Darley Arabian. Family 14 would link American Pharoah to The Oldfield Mare (circa 1695), about whom we know nothing except that she was "highly bred".

(Interestingly, from a glance at the Equineline pedigree for Miami Mood, dam of Queen Zetta, we have "not on file" her fifth generation maternal grandam, her name lost to the mists of time...) &mdash; Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 06:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The Equineline database for female lineages only goes back to around 1890. To find 19th century or earlier information you have to look up the mare in the General Stud Book or other stud books. Here is the entry for Refugee . If you would like to research earlier pedigrees or horses here is my sandbox for early racehorse sources User:Froggerlaura/Sources for Thoroughbred projects. I don't think the Jockey Club routinely does mtDNA testing. Froggerlaura  ribbit 15:30, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that! I'm new to editing in this area, as is probably obvious, and tips like yours are welcome and helpful. I posed the Family 14 question to User Talk:Tigerboy1966, since he created the article with that detail. Here is his informative reply. &mdash; Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 16:15, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The mare families are best obtained from published sources, we are getting dangerously close to WP:SYNTH if we dig it up totally on our own (even if we are right!). As for the rest, they can only use DNA testing to verify parentage of sire and dam (or as far back as parentage testing goes, which is at the most about 15-20 years, before they they could do blood-typing from about the 1980s on...) prior to that, all a DNA test can do is compare ancestry and show relatedness in general, it can't verify individual identity (unless they pull old DNA from skeletal remains or something)  Also, mtDNA is able to create a quagmire -- it's often revealed that pedigrees don't align with claims made.  In Arabian horses, someone did a study of mare lines and found that many horses who supposedly descended from the same ancestral dam - didn't!    Montanabw (talk)  04:52, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly! There was that mtDNA study of the Bend Or skeleton that confirmed the suspicion that he was really Tadcaster based on current descendants assuming somebody didn't swap/mislabel the skeletons. The Equineline pedigree still reflects the "historical" lineage though...  Froggerlaura  ribbit 05:45, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I footnoted it, not sure if I'm skirting WP:SYNTH but at least showing the work and giving an explanation for Family 14 relating to mtDNA. Won't be offended if this is reversed. &mdash; Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 15:18, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm asking to pop by.  She has considerable expertise in this stuff generally (across multiple breeds) and I think will have valuable input.   Montanabw (talk)  20:08, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Also,  Here are some articles with pedigree analysis that you can use to supplement or perhaps substitute sourcing  (they are pre-Derby and kind of amusing that way)! Would you be OK if I - VERY CAREFULLY - attempted to consolidate some of the pedigree pages - at least where one animal's pedigree clearly shows the connections to another's within the five-generation chart?  (I understand the rabbit hole of pedigree research, I've gone down it IRL many times with my horses and those of friends)  Montanabw (talk)  20:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * http://www.drf.com/news/kentucky-derby-pedigree-profiles-american-pharoah
 * http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/87582/pedigree-analysis-american-pharoah
 * http://www.twinspires.com/blog/2015/3/12/lot-american-speed-americah-pharoahs-pedigree (This one the snarkiest and least reliable)
 * @User:Montanabw, I'm more than fine with whatever well-sourced improvements you make. The whole speed vs. stamina debate, mare vs. sire in APh's case, still seems relevant to the speculation and excitement leading up to the Belmont (though I think he's opened the eyes of many early skeptics who wouldn't dare bet on him, who were CERTAIN he'd flag in the stretch at the Derby). The sources above really don't say much more than that; and the commentators seem blissfully unaware of what the owner and trainer knew, that APh was from the beginning a very, very fast colt, quick to take the good training and improve on himself .. I think we can find quotes supporting that and I'll look for them and try to incorporate them higher in the article. I didn't quite understand your comment about five generations&mdash;do you mean the deeper generations are irrelevant to discussion and/or to his current performance?&mdash;but just to clarify one thing, I think APh's only 5 x 5 inbreeding is by Northern Dancer, with 6 x 5 to Bold Ruler and Raise a Native, though I am still rather fond at least of naming those even flashier deep-lineage ancestors on both sides, Tom Fool and Man o' War etc., and hope they still make the cut. Of course after the Belmont, there will be a whole round of "I told you so's" no matter what happens, but even now there's room for expansion, development, and improvement to the pedigree section and article as a whole. Let's have at it! &mdash; Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 20:49, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Heh, I'm good with deep analysis, actually, (see California Chrome - went clear to the Darley Arabian with him!  LOL!)  I'm more thinking we can thin out the references a little... for example, we don't necessarily have to source to a separate pedigree for Bold Ruler where we already have the pedigree of Secretariat... that sort of thing.  In fact, if the Equineline pedigrees have links, we could use a single for Secretariat to even take Nasrullah back five generations... Am I making sense?  Montanabw (talk)  21:48, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * My footnote citations follow the cue and logic of Wikipedia's four-generation pedigree chart, so with just a few exceptions, I have footnotes only for APh's fourth-generation ancestors, and name them in the footnotes mainly so a reader can click on those individual pedigrees to see the deeper ancestries. Would it make sense just to put an Equineline footnote on each of those 16 fourth-generation ancestors within the pedigree chart itself, so a reader can click through one by one if he or she wishes? I'm happy to do that. I sense that your concerns have to do with the note section seeming very cluttered and complicated. Really, I do want to simplify! But I felt I had to justify the points made. Happy to have you streamline as you wish... I keep saying it, but editing in this area is outside my general comfort zone, and I may well have wandered off into my own pasture. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. &mdash; Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 22:24, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I think I did use just the primary equineline link for California Chrome for most of the simple pedigree discussions of his most direct ancestors. Thoroughbred Heritage did pass muster at FAC for things like the dam line for his "family," I'm mostly thinking out loud here and I guess if you think I did something you aren't happy with, just revert me!  The important thing is to get it right!   Montanabw (talk)  23:36, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

another "Pharoah"?
A certain 18th C Lord Gower, I'm guessing John Leveson-Gower, 1st Earl Gower, owned and raced a horse named "Pharoah" (born c. 1753, sired by Moses), spelled as such in contemporary accounts and in turf books through the early 19th C. If you Google "Lord Gower's Pharoah" you'll find examples; some later accounts correct him to "Pharaoh". He's also an "American", as this particular Thoroughbred was sent to South Carolina after a successful English racing career, competing, of course, in an era before spelling principles became so rigid. In any event it's worth noting American Pharoah's supposed misspelling is not entirely without equestrian precedent. There are also five more recent horses named "Pharoah" in the Equineline database, including a gelding in South Africa that, as chance would have it, is not so distantly related to our own. &mdash; Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 07:25, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Here is the complete history of "Old Pharoah" if interested. I'm not surprised that there are other Pharoahs as it is one of the most commonly misspelled words in the English language .  Froggerlaura  ribbit 14:33, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Nasrullah's grandsire was Pharos, so maybe the spelling "channels" him. &mdash; Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 17:24, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm accusing all of you of having WAY too much fun with this article! Love to see the kind of good-spirited collaboration that is wikipedia at its best!  Hugs to everyone! I haven't enjoyed working on an article as much as I've enjoyed working on this one in ages.    Montanabw (talk)  04:55, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Darley Arabian
I don't see how that particular book supports the claim. We need a better footnote for this. (It can be done synthetically by spelling out the tail-male genealogy, which passes through Eclipse, though that could be cumbersome! But all but one or two in his line have their own Wikipedia entries so at least it's straightforward.) By the way, Darley Arabian is an article greatly in need of improvement, it doesn't even mention that he was stolen! &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 00:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The page I cited (460 - would it be better to link to the exact page?) is Unbridled's pedigree traced to Darley, and that page does the cumbersome bit... It would be great to find a pedigree analysis of AP that says this too, but I haven't found one.  I prefer one source instead of a bunch... and oh yes, Darley, Godolphin and Byerly Turk all are awful.   Montanabw (talk)  04:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * This GA review thing sure has made me fussy! Because the book pre-dates APh&mdash;but what choice do we have?&mdash;it's probably better to link to the exact page, yes, though maybe adding a helpful endnote will suffice. So I did that! Meanwhile, I am amused by this. &mdash; Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 10:43, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Heh, running the FAC gauntlet has moved me from "fussy" to some place beyond that... LOL! But it CAN be run, so I keep at it! Montanabw (talk)  03:33, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, some nice color and history in this article from Yahoo Sports. I'll try to incorporate some of it tomorrow but would welcome a helping hand. One of the reasons I love editing Wikipedia is when I see (or sense) that reporters are also reading, and elaborating upon, subjects and angles we've illuminated (like the yearling auction buy-in). Just a hunch... The reporter did a great job, of course. &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 02:30, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Whenever I feel the need to add the template, I have a moment of delightful schadenfreude. LOL!   Montanabw (talk)  03:28, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism
This article is continuously being vandalized. Can we lock it or whatever you call it. Jameswrjobe53 (talk) 23:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Happened about two minutes after you posted!  Montanabw (talk)  07:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

"Triple Crown" link
The "Triple Crown" link in the opening paragraph needs to be to Triple Crown of Thoroughbred Racing (United States), not just to the Triple Crown disambiguation page as it is now. 2600:1004:B16D:AA57:A037:1F9A:164E:564E (talk) 23:11, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2015
TV said margin of victory in the belmont was 5 1/2 lengths.

Stu71584 (talk) 23:11, 6 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Was fixed.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  07:47, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2015
the owner of American Pharoah is NOT Osama bin Laden

184.5.131.242 (talk) 23:11, 6 June 2015 (UTC)


 * We got that fixed too. Stupid vandals.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  07:47, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2015
Please remove 2nd colon from 2015 Belmont Stakes section's winning time. S/B 2:26.65 Thanks.

67.253.76.179 (talk) 15:31, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Fixed that. Thanks for letting us know! Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 04:12, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Post-race talk
They'll be some flux, but I'm anticipating an evolution from GA to FA. And with that in mind, I'd suggest developing a little section (while the clips are still current) on why American Pharoah couldn't possibly win the Triple Crown, why NO horse could ever win it again, facing a field which regularly sits out the Derby and/or Preakness. And here I was watching a horse with extraordinary amplitude and endurance improving over the last five weeks, even putting on weight&mdash;well, I'm just grateful the victory was as decisive as it was, to put paid to the naysayers! My schadenfreude is pretty big right now. &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 01:45, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I disagreed with the notion that no horse could win it again and wonder if there are clips out there that would say or said otherwise. That aside, if you want to get this to FA im aboard with the idea. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:51, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Here is an opinion piece by Boomer Esiason . - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:57, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Appreciated. Of course American Pharoah had his many supporters, but it is telling that Wired (linked above) wasted no time in revising its online story and original published headline: "Science Says American Pharoah Won't Win Triple Crown". I should have archived the original as published! I did bookmark a number of similar stories, and of course it was a horse race, anything could have happened, but you can bet that if he'd lost these various folks would be CROWING right now, Instead of eating it &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 02:25, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * No doubt about that, as for the link here you go: . - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:34, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I did that (add more stuff and go to FAC) last year when working on California Chrome. I'll create a section and we can just park everything there.  Remember:  Just because we have it doesn't mean we have to use it... I got smacked last year for "Chrome's article being into overkill territory for length!  LOL!   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  08:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * lol, well then we will focus on the more important stories, I do find it noteworthy here that a headline got retracted and the "science" debunked. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Beyond the headline fail, the Wired piece is also deliciously quotable: "So, American Pharoah, it’d be awesome if you win the Triple Crown, but you probably won’t. It’s not your fault. It’s science and those pesky fresh horses." But the piece is definitely useful in outlining the challenges of running so many big races in such a short time. &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 17:57, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the "headline fail" story is one that we SHOULD immortalize! Either here or at the Triple Crown article! Too good an example of the Orwellian 1984 "memory hole" to not note!!!!   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  04:07, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Additional article sources
More potential source material. Be aware that some of this stuff could duplicate each other. Also, some links will expire, particularly anything from Gannett, which moves its stuff to a paid archive, as will Boston Globe and papers in that "family." One reason I use NYT so much is that they are good about not doing that. FWIW, Sports Illustrated will keep articles, but it will change the links to them. ANyone who wants to try and get wayback to archive as much as possible is wise. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 08:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * http://www.wired.com/2015/06/science-says-american-pharoah-wont-win-triple-crown/ and https://web.archive.org/web/20150605014218/http://www.wired.com/2015/06/science-says-american-pharoah-wont-win-triple-crown/
 * http://www.si.com/horse-racing/video/2015/05/19/boomer-american-pharoah-will-win-triple-crown
 * http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/horse-racing/american-pharoah-becomes-first-triple-crown-horse-since-1978/
 * http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/sports/frustration-turns-to-elation-for-american-pharoahs-jockey.html
 * http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=2&SubsectionID=2&ArticleID=146160 - good one for the Bob Baffert article
 * http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/sports/american-pharoah-wins-belmont-stakes-and-triple-crown.html?_r=0
 * http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/sports/storied-trainer-hoping-to-see-or-hear-triple-crown-history.html?action=click&contentCollection=Sports&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article (heart-warming, not sure if relevant to this article

And we must do something about the Montana-bred ex-reining horse, Smokey aka This Whiz Shines, the track pony! Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 08:36, 7 June 2015 (UTC) :
 * http://www.hrtv.com/smokey/
 * http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/92398/pony-smokey-a-loyal-american-pharoah-sidekick
 * http://www.reinersworld.com/andersontraining/horsesforsale.html
 * http://www.aqha.com/Journal/Blogs/2015/June/06032015-This-Whiz-Shines-Escorts-American-Pharoah.aspx
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMYgQGBtyEE
 * http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-937117
 * http://www.reinersworld.com/andersontraining/horsesforsale.html

More from June 7:
 * http://www.si.com/more-sports/2015/06/07/american-pharoah-triple-crown-larry-collmus-nbc-womens-world-cup
 * http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/92483/pharoah-settles-in-well-at-churchill-downs
 * http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/story/_/id/13029419/american-pharoah-race-again-2015-owner-ahmed-zayat-says Future plans

More:
 * http://time.com/3912017/triple-crown-bob-baffert-trainer-american-pharoah/ Another good Baffert bio too
 * http://www.si.com/horse-racing/2015/06/06/american-pharoah-belmont-stakes-triple-crown-bob-baffert GREAT article! we have to add stuff from here, new material!
 * http://www.paulickreport.com/news/triple-crown/zayat-a-huge-honor-and-privilege-to-own-american-pharoah/


 * Will be digging in over the next few days and have been bookmarking a few good sources as well. I'm inclined to create a page for Wheels Up, the nascent private aviation company that pulled off an astute Pharoah marketing deal. BTW, reporter Darren Rovell tweeted, and Leverage re-tweeted, that the Monster marketing deal, the largest in horse racing history, came about as the result of a cold call. Are tweets considered RS or does Rovell have to report that in a story? &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 21:03, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * My take is that basically we should avoid news tweets that aren't picked up by a reporter per WP:PRIMARY, though sometimes they can be used in a very limited fashion to augment another source, as in "on date X, person foo tweeted XYZ." You probably could "say Rovell tweeted XYZ" for the proposition that he said it on a particular date, but you'd need another RS to say he was correct!  For example, I used twitter to verify that someone created a twitter account for the dumbass possum.  Or that the Zayats used twitter at Paynter_(horse) (although I think I cited to a RS, not to the tweets themselves).    We probably already have enough on the Monster deal in this article (and I added bit to the Monster Energy article too), though I suppose we could mention Wheels Up in passing, and I agree they are probably notable enough for their own article, as is the Leverage Agency.  The commercialism of it all is kind of getting to me a bit (and see the stuff I added to Bob Baffert's article about the weird Burger King guy).  Espinoza was starting to look like a NASCAR driver with stuff on his pants, his boots, his collar... I think Chantal Sutherland sold a spot on the butt of her pants once... sigh...   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  03:35, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Yet more:


 * http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/features/the-american-pharoah-story-763 THIS IS AN EXCELLENT overview article about many aspects of the horse's background and all three races.  May be able to consolidate some other refs into this one too.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  06:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


 * http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/92517/pharoah-makes-sports-illustrated-cover Title says it all: "Since 2000, only Mine That Bird and Smarty Jones   have made the magazine's cover, in 2009 and 2004, respectively."


 * http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2015/06/hoofcare-american-pharoah-triple-crown-champagne-horseshoe.html Magic horseshoes

Followup
By the way, have you seen the page view spike? It will die down, of course, but the article will have significant readership as long as Wikipedia is around. Nice thought. &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 01:23, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah! Chrome had more overall views in the period, but that TC spike was bigger than any single day for Chrome.  I'm super glad that we had the article close to GA!  (Oh crap, I've watched too many post-race interviews, saying "super" all the time - I'm starting to talk like Baffert!)   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  18:43, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * A couple more things I wonder if we should add, I had notes from the broadcast, we'd need to find sources, but... In the three races, AP defeated more opponents since Assault in 1946; Espinoza first in history to win Derby and Preakness back to back.


 * at http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/videos/13770/2015-belmont-stakes-wrap at 0:34 on video, they say AP was fifth to win TC wire to wire in the Belmont.

It will never end... Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 08:53, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


 * http://www.adweek.com/news/advertising-branding/american-pharoah-reps-are-talks-put-triple-crown-winner-wheaties-box-165233 Wheaties
 * http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/92525/american-pharoah-set-to-be-on-vogue-cover Vogue. Cover. Of. Vogue.

Tons and tons of assorted statistics and trivia: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/92522/the-figs-american-pharoahs-triple-crown


 * Haskin's waxing poetic, but also some good material, particularly on Martin Garcia: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2015/06/11/belmont-recap-phait-accompli.aspx


 * Layden at Sports Illustrated about the cover story: http://www.si.com/horse-racing/2015/06/09/american-pharoah-belmont-triple-crown-layden

Mike Lizzi photo
There is a new photo of the Belmont win https://www.flickr.com/photos/ragingmike/18081280603/ from Mike Lizzi on Flickr. He has made it CC but it has a prominent copyright watermark in the left corner. I've uploaded one of his photos before that was similarly marked (2012 Belmont) but thought I would ask before uploading (since I got burned on the CC Dubai photo). Froggerlaura ribbit 15:54, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

There is a policy on watermarks at Commons: "uploading of files with visible but relatively unobtrusive watermarks is merely discouraged, not prohibited." Looks to me like the image has the proper copyright, I say upload it, give it a few days for the gnomes to look it over, maybe even find a friendly Commons admin to reassure you, and proceed until apprehended. The Dubai one was a bust because France Sire TV changed their licensing and you just didn't catch it! ;-)   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  22:51, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Alternatively, you could email Lizzi and see if he'd do a smaller watermark.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  22:51, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

PR?
Was wondering what y'all think of me putting this article up for Peer Review in anticipation of a FAC run. I had FA for California Chrome by about August of last year. Anyone else in? (Or at least, any caveats ?)  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  16:00, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm all for it, the subject is worthwhile. Am hoping the FA gauntlet will be motivational. &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 01:07, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, FWIW, this was the gauntlet for California Chrome - and it took a month. Given that I learned a lot from that one, (like having to trim about 1/3 of the article because I had gotten so totally fascinated with every new nuance, LOL - but I kept the possum!) this one could (i hope) go a little smoother.  But, I've now participated in FACs on 19 FAs and about six of them I was lead editor.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  02:49, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Truth is, I began editing on Wikipedia back in the Wild West Days of 2004 and helped bring several elegant FAs forward, but there was a VERY different standard back then (footnotes not particularly required). I've learned so much from watching and working with you, it's been a pleasurable (late) apprenticeship. I'll have some weeks of travel and perhaps Internet inaccessibility this summer but will try to keep up with Pharoah. The article is relatively lean, we still have room for possums, of course, though I generally prefer a more compact read. The subject is such a good one, though, we will definitely have fun! &mdash;Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 04:18, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this article is much tighter than Chrome's, in part because we already had articles on Pioneerof the Nile, Baffert and Zayat - much of Chrome's article was about his breeding and connections; I wound up creating about five or six related articles (including nasal strip and Templeton Thompson) related to that one!  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  18:44, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Article expansion

 * http://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/horses/triple/preakness/2015/05/10/preakness-american-pharoahs-first-four-homes-never-relinquish-emotional-ownership/27095167/ good for expanding background

FAC
I decided that PR will just be a time sink and has a huge backlog, I'm going to nominate this for FAC. We can continue to make assorted improvements to the article so long as we aren't making mass changes that impact stability. I'm adding some stuff to fill in the blanks, feel free to tweak if needed. Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 04:50, 9 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I think we are getting close on FA, and I've fine-tooth-combed the sources/footnotes to the best of my ability and believe they will pass independent muster (the GA review was rigorous, though my own concern is whether it's acceptable that more obscure article sources such as TV stations are wiki-linked within the footnote cites, while major sources, like The New York Times and The Blood-Horse, are not ... is there a standard? What do you think?). I believe we need a suitable source and supporting copy in the body in anticipation of the Breeders' Cup, since it is mentioned in the lede but without textual support or footnote. The Haskell win qualifies him for that race, right? Perhaps we can work that into the body, but I'd like it to come from a good source in the horse racing press. Watching the Haskell, there was a lot of TV chatter about an unprecedented "Grand Slam" if Pharoah wins the Breeders' Cup in October against that more established, older field. (Perhaps prompted by Bob Ehalt's ESPN column last month?) Should we include that anticipatory speculation, or will it make you as nervous as it makes me (and Zayat!) who don't want to jinx anything? &mdash; Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 14:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Basically, the main thing is consistency for each source, either all the bloodhorse or NYT refs are linked inside the citation, or none. My own view is that so long as we have the url properly linked, I feel less concerned about linking in the citation unless it's something an FAC reviewer demands, in which case I just sigh and do it.  That he might run in the Breeders' Cup is mentioned in the body text and that's the source to support it, we generally don't add anything to the lead not sourced in the text.  I'm of mixed feelings about the "Grand Slam" - like you and Zayat, it makes me nervous, but also WP:CRYSTAL may apply anyway.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  01:17, 9 August 2015 (UTC) Follow up:  I pinged one of the usual reviewers at FAC who will nitpick this for us.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  01:22, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You're right, Breeders' Cup is already in the body and footnoted (I overlooked it). And WP:CRYSTAL is a great excuse not to gather up all this neurotic "Grand Slam" chatter, so I won't bother! Thanks, article looks great &mdash; I've had so much fun working with you and learned so much from this article's evolution. &mdash; Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 03:00, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Gosh, thanks (blushes), you've been a great collaborator—or partner in crime! We just need a couple more FAC reviewers to do the nitpicky stuff and I think we should be close to promotion.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  04:22, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Nitpicks have arrived, in the form of footnote/source questions from Nikkimaria, but I'm a little pressed this week with other work and won't be able to help until Weds or Thurs. Also somewhat isolated from the web. Not to fob it off on you, but... I can help later, at least, if it's still undone. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 02:16, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * It's the usual. I'm on it.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  06:43, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Belmont video
I found this on Vimeo. There is no sound because I had to edit out a non-free song excerpt and there is no soundtrack from the original video. Has nice crowd reaction to the win. Froggerlaura ribbit 17:23, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I get tears seeing this &mdash; nothing better to illustrate how American Pharoah's triumph belongs to everyone. Can we lift this from Vimeo, or are there licensing issues in play? Have we secured author's permission? Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 17:39, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It was a CC by 3.0 on Vimeo, so I uploaded it here. Froggerlaura  ribbit 23:12, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Then we're good, it seems. Will you do the honors? It will add a lot to the article. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 00:57, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I can't get the video to play in Safari... for some reason java blocks it...  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  06:43, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * It's the .webm format, it won't play in Safari without converting to an Apple-approved format. Ironic since the original video was mpeg4 and Wiki made me convert it to a free format. Froggerlaura  ribbit 20:27, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I just ran it in Foxfire, where it worked. Any ideas on conversion within the browser or is our only option to download or use a different browser?  Techno-geeks want to know!   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  23:28, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

France Sire videos
Froggerlaura ribbit |undefined 22:57, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
 * American Pharoah pre-Breeders' Cup
 * AP in BCC
 * AP starting gate video
 * Golden Horn
 * Ashford stallions


 * I love that crew... was looking through their old videos and the reporters manage to have some great goofy fun with their assignments, too.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  05:08, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The vimeo stuff isn't a free license, is it?  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  05:33, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a CC by 3.0. Froggerlaura  ribbit |undefined 23:47, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

What is a "grand slam"?
I am confused as to what a "grand slam" is. The reference is made in the lead section and it is not explained. Hence why I am writing this question. --Xavier (talk) 23:42, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * It is explained here: American_Pharoah. but I can restore some wording in the lead to clarify.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  01:10, 2 November 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but after reading American_Pharoah I feel it still has not been explained. I still do not understand what a Grand Slam is. I will try Google searching for some results.
 * --Xavier (talk) 02:19, 2 November 2015 (UTC)


 * It means he won the four most prestigious races in America. All in on year.  Does that help?  See also Grand slam.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  03:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes thank you! After reading your revision, and your answer, I finally understand what a grand slam is. You simplified the meaning in a straightforward manner. Thank you.
 * --Xavier (talk) 11:38, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Content about "going-away" party and where he'll stay in November 2015
Per WP:NOTNEWSPAPER, I removed this content: "Rather than immediately being moved to Ashford Stud, nine miles from the Keeneland racetrack, American Pharoah was expected to remain in Baffert's care into November, with a possible going-away party planned for him at Churchill Downs in Louisville, Kentucky." It was originally added here. All content that is added to an encylopedia should have enduring notability; now, a year from now, and many years from now. This content does not at all meet that standard. The information is not only time-sensitive because of its very temporary nature (a few weeks), it's also speculative and trivial. A going-away party or where he's going to reside for the next few weeks will be of no importance in the long run. Wikipedia is not a diary. Just be patient and wait until he's moved, then it can be added once it's published in reliable sources. Be patient. There's no rush. Czoal (talk) 07:49, 2 November 2015 (UTC)


 * NOTNEWS states, "As Wikipedia is not a paper source, editors are encouraged to include current and up-to-date information within its coverage." There is some room here for material that is interim.  As our article already discusses that the horse will be retired to stud, it is relevant when he gets there and if he is going to have a "farewell tour" of sorts first. So I think there is room for respectful disagreement on how to interpret this material. Please do not keep removing it; the rule is WP:BRD, not BRBD.    Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  08:04, 2 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually, "up-to-date information" refers to outdated information, such as content that says a football player is on one team, when he actually was traded to another. Or when when an article refers to a politician as currently being a mayor, when he actually is now a congressman. We do not put in "interim" information that we know will change soon; that's exactly what WP:NOTDIARY addresses. You even use the word "if" ("if he is going to have a 'farewell tour'"), which is exactly the point. "If" is speculation. And even the removed conent uses the word "possible" ("with a possible going-away party planned"). Further, you failed to address the more imporant issues of notability and trivia. Where this horse will reside for a few weeks is meaningless in an encylopedia. And if he does a farewell tour, then it can be added as it surely will receive wide coverage in reliable sources. In terms of BRD, you didn't follow it. You did not take it to the talk page after you reverted. I did. Czoal (talk) 08:28, 2 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Czoal, the issue is now moot, so please permit the article to be updated. Yes, we don't do "trivia" in a featured article, but the fate of the colt is notable. (When he went to Churchill Downs to be paraded on the track after the Triple Crown, it drew thousands of people) So don't lecture me about how to update a featured article, I have 20 of them. You've never edited here and while protecting the article from vandals during a current event is much appreciated, you don't know what you are doing otherwise, so please discus BEFORE you change things, particularly a revert of what another editor (not me) added in good faith.   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  18:06, 2 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Your arrogance is humorous. You do a lot of talking while ignoring clear policies and guidelines. The fate of the colt is notable, but that ridiculous content was not. And, no, I will not discuss my edits "BEFORE" I make them unless I feel it's necessary. If I come across any other pages where you try to add or re-add inappropriate content like that to an article, it will be removed again. Hopefully, you'll eventually come down off your high horse and realize that the editing rules and processes are the same for everyone. Czoal (talk) 19:37, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

For the record, Czoal, this supposedly non-notable material was sourced to The New York Times which reported it specifically to contradict inaccurate reports that Pharoah would be immediately taken from Keeneland to Coolmore Stud. As Montanabw points out, Pharoah's relationship to the public has included non-racing exhibitions which have played a huge role in his appeal. Pharoah is considered a Kentucky "native son", and there is pride taken that he born, bred and buttered in Lexington. I do think the casual reader of Wikipedia deserves to know there could be a chance to see him again before he surrenders to Studville, just as I think the Times was right to report on it. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 20:07, 2 November 2015 (UTC)


 * VD, I see that you are the editor who originally added the disputed content, so it's of course no surprise that you have popped in to defend its inclusion. While I appreciate your enthusiasm about the topic, this is not a fan page for Pharoah; it's an encylopedia. As such, the source of the content in this instance is completely irrelevant. The issue is solely about the notability of the content. Just because something is published in a reliable source doesn't mean it's important enough to include in an encylopedia. In fact, most of the trillions of things written in reliable sources don't qualify do be included here. And while fans of AP may "deserve" to know that there may be a party for him, they can get that speculative information in a newspaper or on TV, not here. If some type of noteworthy farewell event actually occurs, then it can certainly be added once it gets written about in reliable sources. So, the problem with your thinking is that you are totally misunderstanding the difference between an encylopedia and a newspaper. Czoal (talk) 20:49, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The Courier-Journal also got excited, but in vain: Pharoah was taken to Coolmore this morning. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 21:26, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly. They're a newspaper. This is an encylopedia. Czoal (talk) 21:46, 2 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Can we please have WP:CIVIL policy-based discussion of whether this content should or should not be in the article, without accusing other editors of "arrogance " or otherwise focusing on the editors rather than the content. Conduct displutes can be dealt with elsewhere, including on WP:ANI, if need be -- they don't normally belong on article talk pages. DES (talk) 07:02, 3 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you, DES. But please note that the matter under discussion here was over 10 hours ago. Czoal (talk) 07:08, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I had missed that, . But if so, ther is even less reason to edit war over a link to WP:ANI nor to engage in personal attacks. Reverting other editor's comments is a violation of WP:TPG except under very limited circumstances, which don't seem to me to apply here. DES (talk) 07:16, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * No problem. I didn't want you to think the matter was still under debate. And I saw in the other discussion that you said, "Czoal is correct that it is not usual to place such a link on an article talk page, and I note that those restoring it are also edit warring". Thank you. Czoal (talk) 07:27, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * However, from your point of view,, the key word there should be also. DES (talk) 07:31, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, the key words are "not usual". Czoal (talk) 07:50, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

--- Well that was quick! Czoal is now banned as a confirmed sock of Lootbrewed. Now that he's beyond objecting, we can give the link to the ANI where the discussion, mercifully enough, is now closed. Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 12:25, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Highest rated US horse in RP history
Just leaving this here for now   Tigerboy1966   09:49, 3 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Beyers on the BCC: 120 .   Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  21:00, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

November 2015
Can't stand all the rules and b.s. of Wikipedia editing. It takes a special type to get involved. I find on topics of government interest that certain editors overly scrutinize and hide behind technicalities in order to strike legitimate data from the Wiki pages. It makes me wonder about the objectivity of this system. It is used in some cases as a place where government institutions and agencies can put information so that it looks authoritative and supports an official, approved position. Quite sickening. I can give examples if necessary.

Anyway, back to American Pharoah. It may be interesting to include the fact that he ran the last 1/4-mile of the Breeder's Cup Classic faster than any horse in the race. His finishing fractions were so fast, that even the late-charging Honor Code finished slower than American Pharoah did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎ 76.240.172.212 (talk • contribs) 18:44, November 29, 2015 (UTC)


 * I heard something about that... if you have a news source so we can footnote it, please post the url here.  Montanabw <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  01:50, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Updates
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/97377/american-pharoah-kentuckys-top-sportsman
 * http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2015/12/19/video-of-the-year-pharoah-travers-gallop.aspx (Haskin)
 * http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/96457/2015-vox-populi-award-to-american-pharoah
 * http://www.paulickreport.com/news/people/year-end-leaders-pharoah-zayat-pletcher-castellano/
 * http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/96008/big-sport-of-turfdom-to-american-pharoah-team Big Sport of Turfdom award (possibly also for Baffert, Espinoza, Zayat)
 * http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/97135/aps-belmont-victory-ntra-moment-of-year NTRA moment of the year
 * http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/96735/american-pharoahs-crown-top-sports-story AP top sports story of the year
 * http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/96941/american-pharoah-team-tops-eclipse-finalists Eclipse award finalists (awards ceremony 1/16/16)
 * He's due to start breeding in a week.Lihaas (talk) 23:08, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * And I think they actually film it as well... only in horse land is that not weird...  Montanabw <sup style="color:orange;">(talk)  09:20, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * , Coolmore tweeted yesterday that Untouched Talent is in foal to American Pharoah. Exciting! Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 20:38, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It's pretty fun to see further developments! The article needs a bit of updating with links to AP's awards and such. (Just added another one).   Montanabw <sup style="color:orange;">(talk)  01:05, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Final quarter mile of Belmont
Good article, in general. One note:

The fact that AP ran the final quarter mile faster than Secretariat in The Belmont, is deceptive, as other horses have accomplished the same thing. Secretariat ran a blistering 1:59 flat for the first mile and a quarter, whereas AP didn't start his "move" until the far turn and so would be expected to have a faster final quarter mile time. (Secretariat already had the race won on the far turn.) Moreover, Secretariat ran the full race well over two seconds faster, which is far more important, but isn't mentioned directly in the article. I think it's important not to present a pro-AP bias.

Best wishes, 65.199.189.6 (talk) 17:27, 24 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. We have to do a little updating on the article in the near future; do you have a URL to a list of the other horses who ran that final quarter faster than Secretariat?  Montanabw <sup style="color:orange;">(talk)  23:31, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Joe Drape writes a book about a horse he never believed in
To be published April 26 by Hachette: American Pharoah. Hard to forget all of Drape's neigh-saying! (See here and here.) Vesuvius Dogg (talk) 13:51, 18 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oh MEOW! Indeed.  We have him cold on that one! (And dang, why didn't we get ahead of that curve?  LOL!)   Montanabw <sup style="color:orange;">(talk)  17:03, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Spelling
Just a note to everybody who keeps "correcting" the spelling of American Pharoah and Pioneerof the Nile; they're spelled that way on purpose. American Pharoah began as a misspelling but the name was accepted by the Jockey Club. Pioneerof the Nile is spelled that way because the Jockey Club has a 20-character limit on names, and that includes spaces. White Arabian Filly Neigh 21:58, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * It's a neverending problem. What really drives me nuts are the people who use a script to do their fixes and don't even read the article. I think there is a way to do an edit notice on articles (the way the "drama llama" comes up on my talk page edit window) that might be worth adding on this.  I don't know.   Montanabw <sup style="color:orange;">(talk)  22:41, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * You're looking for, , or . Read the documentation for how to configure them to defeat script-based typo correctors. The downside is you've got to use it with every instance of "Pioneerof" and "Pharoah", but it'll do what you're looking for. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 22:51, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you, . Do folks think we have a problem with this that's bad enough to use this?  My thinking is for Pioneerof the Nile, yes, but we address "Pharoah" in the article quite a bit...?  Maybe I'll try it for Pioneerof and see how it goes.  Anyone else want to toss in their 2¢, go for it.  Montanabw <sup style="color:orange;">(talk)  17:26, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The trick would be to ask whoever maintains the default typo lists that AWB and WikiCleaner use to add exceptions for "American Pharoah" and "Pioneerof the Nile". I'm betting that would get the vast majority of the typo fixers away from fixing this and affiliated pages. I'm not sure where to raise that issue though. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 20:15, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I think did for American Pharoah - someone did.  I added the notatypo tag for Pioneerof the Nile. If anyone wants to touch bases again with the typo list folks, no objection here.  We shall see.   Montanabw <sup style="color:orange;">(talk)  21:10, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Cleo
Won her maiden race. Montanabw <sup style="color:orange;">(talk) 22:49, 1 August 2016 (UTC): http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/213798/american-pharoahs-sis-wins-in-del-mar-debut

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