Talk:American alligator/Archive 1

Live Talk

 * Does anyone have a map of america, and where alligators live in it?

Reproduction
Can someone please include some information on how alligators actually mate? I've seen them swimming piggyback style plenty of times and we all know that the females lay eggs, but what exactly happens when they mate? Are they mating when they swim piggyback style? Does some sort of exchange take place when they do this? Please someone enlighten us! I've tried to find info on the net, but can only find video clips of alligators bellowing and playing in the water. June 24, 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.46.46.27 (talk) 20:03, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Albino Alligator
Would it be appropriate to start a new page for the albino alligator? Although its still an American Alligator, I think it is different enough to warrent a seperate page? Thoughts?


 * I dont think that a seperate page is needed but I have added a picture and some information here, although it could do with being expanded. --DSWebb 18:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, an albino alligator page would be cool. I remember seeing an albino alligator at the Cincinnati Zoo; is it still there?

Land speed
"...they have the ability to sprint for short distances at speeds of up to 30 miles/hour (48 km/h)."

That citation is in order indeed, as the statement is taking exaggeration to an absurd level, as no crocodilian can swim that fast! The greatest recorded land speed for any crocodilian is 17 km/h (10.6 mph) by an Australian Freshwater Crocodile. More on the subject here. --Anshelm &#39;77 21:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Size & longevity
Size An article about the heaviest (1,043 lb/473 kg, length 13 ft 10½ in/4.23 m) Floridan specimen caught in the wild can be found here. You can find a mention here (end of page) of the longest measured specimen in Florida (14 ft 3 1/4 in or 428.3 cm). I don't know if this figures have been exceeded outside Florida, but I'd assume these specimen are a good representation of the true maximum size. The late great Superman, a captive specimen, was reportedly much heavier at 1,500 lb (680 kg, length 14 ft/4.3 m), but I'd like to see more accurate figures for this one – the weight seems too much like a rough estimate. At least I know it was once measured 13 ft 7½ in (4.15 m) long, while still alive.

I doubt that the claimed 19 ft 2 in (5.84 m) Louisianan individual (some details can be found here) is taken seriously among modern scientific community. Based on a few weighed and measured large specimen, I got a (rather variable) length/weight ratio of 3.4–6.2 kg/m3 (8.7 for "Superman"), which would suggest a weight within 1,500–2,700 lb (680–1,200 kg) range for this particular individual. This would be spectacularly large even for a Saltwater Crocodile, a significantly larger species on average.

Longevity The suggested lifespan of 30 years is rather coservative, as alligators have lived more than twice as long in captivity. Guinness World Records recognizes a 66 year-old female that died on September 26, 1978 in Adelaide Zoo, Australia. It was brought there at age 2 on June 5, 1914. An alligator named "Smiley" died in Gothenburg, Sweden on February 10, 1987 at age 65, after the heating of its pool had accidentally been turned off. --Anshelm &#39;77 21:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Temperature of eggs

 * "The temperature at which alligator eggs develop determines their sex. Those eggs which are hatched in temperatures ranging from 90–93 °Fahrenheit (32.2–33.8 °C) turn out to be male, while those in temperatures from 82–86 °Fahrenheit (27.7–30 °C) end up being female. Intermediate temperature ranges have proven to yield a mix of both male and females."

This wording is ambiguous. Does this mean Interpretation (2) seems hard to believe. However, if (1) is true, the first sentence should read
 * 1) a male egg will only hatch at 90-93F, even though its gender was fixed at the time of fertilization; or
 * 2) you can influence the gender of a fertilized egg by forcing it to hatch at a given temperature?
 * "The sex of an alligator determines the temperature at which its egg develops",

not the other way around. Mtford 22:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Range north and south
Range certain extends into AR, pictures with locations are shown here: http://www.herpsofarkansas.com/Alligator/AlligatorMississippiensis 73.226.52.68 (talk) 19:38, 9 July 2016 (UTC) Michael O.

The discussion of northern range expansion is weak and should be excised. While the author has dressed up his effort with citations, they are all to newspaper citings of individual alligators. There is no citation to scientific work arguing or even speculating on northern expansion. Also, reading the articles, it is not at all clear that the alligator citings are from migration. It is speculated that they are from releases of wild alligators (which is surely the case for very similar articles/citings in New York, West Virginia, Northern Virginia, etc.) Moreover the discussion of "estuaries" is disjointed. The author never proves that this transformation to estuaries is happening. Never explains why it would benefit alligators (which are fresh water biased). And there is NO WAY that the Chattahoochie in northern GA, hundreds of feet above sea level, can be considered estuarian.

I am very interested in the subject of the extremities of alligator range. I suspect I'm similar to the previous author in wanting to see (and note) the alligator in an expanded norther range. However, the contributions are still poor. It would be better to put the northern expansion speculation at a blog.

P.s. The South Florida section seems to be messed up as well as there is discussion of impact on fish size, not alligators. It doesn't make clear written sense.

P.s.s. One interest that I have (and have not been able to get good info on, is the southern range ON THE TEXAS COAST.  How is that defined (right at the border or north or south of the Rio Grande? Why is there such a border? Is it summer heat related? Is it dryness? Are there crocodiles near by coming up from Mexico?TCO 16:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

No response to my criticism of the (flawed) original research on northward migration, so I'm taking it out.TCO 11:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

--As I understand, alligator sightings are not at all that uncommon outside of Memphis, TN; why is TN, which is not too far out of mapped range, not mentionend as a host area for an animal that is known to be able to travel quite far? A simple internet search can produce cite worthy references to established alligator populations in TN (one existing population was in-fact introduced by U.S. Govt for control of other feral animals? -They thought the gators would eat the feral critters then die out but the gators apparently never died off-reproduced instead, now that's a great story right there.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.0.97 (talk) 15:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC) The American alligator has been a confirmed permanant resident of the Memphis, Tennessee area; therby, extending the previously recognized distribution range by a considerable amount. Would be interested in seeing an updated range map.

And one last thing that I think might be interesting, some discussion or information regarding alligators that exist far from their normal range; for instance, I know that there have been several alligators captured in the Cincinnati and Covington, Kentucky area[] [] [] []; rumor has it that they migrated up the Ohio River and found warm micro-climates in the Ohio River distributaries, such as the Miami River, that have significant protection due to the large north to south oriented river hills in the region which act as baffles to cold winter winds. Apparently, these creatures have the ability to adapt and possibly make small reproducing pockets well outside of their normal range. I don't know if they would live in sewers though as the New York tales tell, probably too dirty and with the lack of sunlight the gators would surely suffer from a considerable vitamin D dificiency.

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.0.146 (talk) 03:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah they definitely are formidable creatures, but like you said, they do have certain necessities which must be met lest they die. A while ago I did see a video of an alligator that was in a rain guttar on the side of the road.  I do not know if he was stuck or what, does anyone else know?Prussian725 (talk) 14:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems there should be some mention in the article of feral and/or out of normal range alligator populations as there is quite a bit of material that at least strongly suggests or at least supports that some pocket populations do exist outside of the recognized distribution range. A section about this would be interesting but it really needs to be more than crypto type sightings and stuff and would need solid references.


 * My Grandfather was a barge worker on the Ohio River and told me that it was not at all unusual to see alligators sunning themselves on the banks of the Ohio. He said he never saw one north of the Cincinnati area but would see them from Cincinnati on down to where the Ohio and Mississippi River converge. He said that they would be seen most on sandbars near Cairo, IL and less and less as you go north, decreasing significantly north of the Falls of the Ohio at Louisville, but, as I said, he said that he even saw them as far north as Cincinnati (about the Coney Island Park area just east of Cincinnati). Too bad my Grandpa is not a citeable source. I wonder if there are any reports that would correlate with his experience, he was not the only riverman to see them, was a "matter of fact" type guy not prone to exaggeration or lies, and never did drugs (to my knowlegde) or was a drinker, so, it should not be terribly uncommon information among river workers and I would think that there should be several other similar accounts among this group of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.77 (talk) 15:36, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Per Monster Quest episode #305 on New York sewer gators the alligator does not need sunlight to synthesize vitamin D and E and would be capable of living a full life in total darkness, said gators exposed to this type of environment will even grow larger at a faster rate. No oppinion with me, just stating what I saw on the show. I do think that a section on "Feral Alligators and Introduced Populations" or something covering this and range expansion would be interesting in this article, other articles such as Quaker Parrot, Ringneck Parrot, Rhesus Macaque, etc seem to be enriched and more interesting from having this topic included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.216 (talk) 16:05, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

[] And another one here in the Cincinnati area. We get them too much for them to be pets or coincidence. Remember, the Ohio River runs into the Mississippi and gators are not uncommon there. Also, they seem to turn up in this same contributory to the Ohio River, I wonder if there might be a small breeding population that has found a warm spot or something to that effect, just too many to be coincidental and they are not that common as pets around here and when you do find them they are expensive so I tend to doubt that every one was a released pet that got too big. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.133.42.16 (talk) 22:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, found from googling Cincinati and alligator with sightings or Ohio River and so on that there haev been several sightings and a few captured already this summer here in Cincinnati. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.133.42.16 (talk) 02:25, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Quality Rating
This article is VERY close to a B rating, unfortunately there are a few things that need to be fixed. Namely, inline references need to be utilized, and the Attacks on people and Alligator safety reads like a how-to which Wikipedia is not. Making this changes will probably make the article B quality :). Jhall1468 04:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

18 feet (probably not)
In my High School biology textbook, it says that american alligators can reach 18 feet in length. I do not think that this is correct. Footballfan190 (talk) 04:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Alligators can reach 18 feet, though it is extremely rare.Prussian725 (talk) 14:05, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think you're right. Claims of 18 foot long individuals (such as this []) don't from reliable sources. In fact, I have a book from the Smithsonian National Institution that says an American alligator can grow up to 16 feet. 216.93.231.149 (talk) 03:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, this is pretty reliable ([]). However, the Defenders of Wildlife could still be wrong. Here is another good source ([]). 216.93.231.149 (talk) 06:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Read this abstract. Note that the largest of 72,670 specimens during a 17-year study was a male 426.9 cm (14 ft 0.07 in) long. Based on the largest skull (64.0 cm/25.2 in) the maximum length is 454 cm (14 ft 10¾ in). --Anshelm &#39;77 (talk) 00:46, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Standardizing measurements
The "Anatomy" section is a bit of a mess with the weights. There are three listed weights, every single one different--kg (lb), pounds (kg), and kg (lbs). While I imagine this is because the sources use different styles, shouldn't the wiki page be adapted for consistency? I would change all of them to kg (lbs) myself, but I actually don't know the answer to my just-stated question (it wasn't rhetorical). 76.99.52.46 (talk) 22:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Average size
I have heard much about the Louisiana gator, the 19 footer, but I have a slight problem with the statement that adult males are "typically 13 to 14.7 feet long". I work out in Brazos Bend State Park in Texas, just a little ways southwest of Houston, and we rarely see them over 12 feet. This is partly due to the fact that most hatchlings do not survive long enough to be over 1 year old, and few of those even reach full adulthood. 13 and 14 feet are truely rare, though not impossible, instances. I myself have only seen one alligator that was about 12 feet, I have also seen others that eclipse 9 and 10 feet. That is why I find that statement not accurate because there is no "typical" size for male alligators because they never stop growing. As they get older their growth rate slows, but they never completely stop. Now, if by "typically" they mean the average size fo adult males, then it would be much smaller than 13 feet, even in Texas which has larger gators on average than Louisiana or Florida.Prussian725 (talk) 14:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Bite force
"American Alligators have the strongest bite of any living animal..." - this statement is not supported by the reference to which it is linked. Furthermore, since among crocodilians the saltwater (or estuarine) crocodile is more massive in every respect - including average examples weighing more than twice as much as the alligator - it seems extemely unlikely even as a matter of speculation. Saltwater crocodiles in the Northern Territory have been known to drag buffalo weighing 1 ton into the water, for instance, suggesting a bite force greater than the largest alligator could be physiologically capable of - that is, it could not even hold prey of that size firmly enough to even begin to move it. Refer to the article by Reiss referenced in the article from which this statement draws its 'evidence' to see the call for further research into the matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.120.165 (talk) 10:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Seconded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.70.113 (talk) 21:40, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to agree and raise also the Great_white_shark which is not surprisingly twice as strong.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  16:51, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Reverted edit
I reverted this edit: due to its rather anecdotal nature. If there exits sources that could be cited that help in getting the content added. Any feedback from the regular editors here would be helpful. Thanks.  Tide  rolls  12:10, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's kind of prima facie nonsense, don't you think? Alligators in South America attacking elephants?  "Vicious cannibalism"?  "Soulmates"?  Alligators attacking other alligators to patch their own wounds with their skin?  Postdlf (talk) 14:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Size
Per the link ^http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/ReptilesAmphibians/Facts/FactSheets/Americanalligator.cfm males average at as little as 11.7 feet.

Another size issue
"One American Alligator allegedly reached a length of 19 feet 2 inches (5.84 m),[6] which would have made it the largest ever recorded, but this has never been verified or even supported by reliable information and is considered highly unlikely by experts."

Ok, the first part of this is true; but what "experts" think it is highly unlikely? Can we have a cite from one of them? Even now, they get to 14ft; 19ft isn't at all hard to believe in the past, before heavy hunting. I've heard it suggested that 20-footers might have been around in early explorers' times... Vultur (talk) 11:35, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Note that this still wouldn't have been all that huge; old Nile crocodiles and Saltwater crocodiles get that big regularly, and Saltwaters at least would probably be heavier than an alligator the same length. Vultur (talk) 11:39, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

~ from what I have read the american alligator averages about 6-10 feet with some large and rare specimens 15 feet long and extremely rare specimens of 18 feet.


 * What make you guys think that there are really indeed an American alligator that can grow to 17-19 foot long in the past? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.9.105.51 (talk) 04:13, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The material is sourced in the article. Do you have sources saying that our sources are incorrect? - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 04:34, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Taxobox picture
While I appreciate the desire to display the animal in a natural setting, this cannot take precedence over clarity. The suggested picture shows almost nothing of the alligator's body, and at taxobox size the details of the head are difficult to make out. The zoo picture is a full-body shot, showing all relevant external anatomical details, and isn't in a particularly unnatural setting (the gator is resting on dirt, not concrete). If you can find a clear full-body shot in the wild, great. If not, leave the picture as it is. Mokele (talk) 12:54, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

File:Albino Alligator 2008.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Albino Alligator 2008.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on May 29, 2010. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2010-05-29. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks!  howcheng  {chat} 16:20, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Coloration question
In the Description section there is a reference to Alligators' color being partly defined by the water chemistry of where they live. I have worked with alligators for years, and have never heard of this phenomenon. I have only seen dark grey-black adults, who sometimes appear greenish because of detritus/algae, etc in the water or dried on their skin.

The reference itself is a UK site, and doesn't appear to be one I'd credit with being a reliable source, though I certainly am not impugning it as worthless. I tried to find another source to back the claim up, but I could not. All the other sources, like http://www.npca.org/marine_and_coastal/marine_wildlife/alligator.html

seem to state dark-grey/black as coloration.

Given that the sole source for this claim is not exactly a peer-reviewed journal article, I'd like to see if we can back this up somewhere else, or remove it if we can't. I'm certainly open to this being the truth, as I've only worked with alligators from one area with fairly consistent water chemistry. Bt it would be nice to verify it. Jbower47 (talk) 21:25, 18 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm suspicious of it now that I look at it. I say axe it. Mokele (talk) 01:13, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

need an article on the recovery of the American alligator (NT)
no text TCO (talk) 06:49, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I will see what I can do about getting it started. Steve Dufour (talk) 06:06, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


 * All right!TCO (talk) 15:58, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry. I haven't found time, but have not forgotten. Steve Dufour (talk) 06:54, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Aligator Hunting Article
I feel that given the show Swamp People, an article on Alligator Hunting is merited. The article on alligators does not cover this, and this is a topic which we really have nothing about in Wikipedia. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 15:34, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. Hunting is a topic that is covered very little. I was looking for an article on modern-day hunting wild hogs, certainly a "notable" topic, and only found Boar hunting a very poor article.Steve Dufour (talk) 06:57, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Having checked again, it's not so bad as I thought but still hunting is very poorly covered compared to other sports and activities. Steve Dufour (talk) 07:04, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Be bold and make one! Given the scope and notability of it comapred to the rest of the article, I would warn against adding too much content in the main article..it would be giving it undue weight. A daughter article might be good though. As long as its NPOV (neither primarily pro- or anti- hunting).204.65.34.224 (talk) 18:36, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Casing in article title
Is there a reason why this article title is capitalized the way it is, as opposed to American alligator, as it is called in the article body? Same issue with Chinese Alligator, but American crocodile and Nile crocodile seem to have it right. –CWenger ( ^ •  @ ) 01:54, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Does Wiki have a policy on capitalization in species names? In birds, both parts of a name are capitalized (e.g., [Colima Warbler]). The only uncapitalized bit is anything that's a hypenated part of another word ([Orange-crowned Warbler]). However, a quick check of a couple mammals, a couple reptiles, etc, yielded the opposite. Is this due to birds being handled differently? In a completely unscientific manner, I would personally tend to capitalize both, as they are both un-hypenated parts of a proper name. However, I don't know if there is an accepted general or wiki-specific practice.

204.65.34.224 (talk) 18:34, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Teeth life cycle
I was watching an animal segment on a talk show and the guy flippantly said they can go through a million teeth in a lifetime. Obviously that sounds ridiculous, but I found the answer elsewhere. It said 2,000 - 3,000 on another page. I noticed the word teeth aren't mentioned anywhere. Maybe some more info on their teeth, size, their life cycle, etc? Dancindazed (talk) 05:44, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

source for alligator bellow audio
the sources for these audio files need to be verified asap. Are we really sure this is the sound that alligators make? I cant help but thinking that this audio closely resembles the sound of human flatulence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.93.236.3 (talk) 01:44, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * They are reliably sourced. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 02:54, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Lede
Berkserker please stop adding cites to the lede. It is prefer the leads do not have cites. LittleJerry (talk) 03:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I already moved the cites to the body. What I don't understand is why did you delete the information as well, rather than moving the cites. Berkserker (talk) 04:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Bad reference
Reference nr. 39 states, that it contians material from this article so it kind of constitutes as circular reference.--Kyng (talk) 07:00, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

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humans hunting alligators
In the section of Relations with humans there is not a mention that we hunt and eat them, and use their skins. It seems to me that this should actually be the most important interaction, not that they hunt us sometimes. PopSci (talk) 01:01, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

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