Talk:American cuisine/Archive 1

Focus
Conversion from list to essay format would improve this article. I'd suggest including a description of foods that are native to the Americas and popular in the United States but rare or uncommon elsewhere, such as corn on the cob. I'd like to see subsections on regional styles such as Cajun, Tex-Mex, and Hawaiian. A section on national innovations and their historic context would also be appropriate, such as cocktails and prohibition. Durova 10:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

In addition, some basic research would be nice. Originally, for example, the article mentioned that Chop Suey was from China when the truth it that it was invented in San Francisco. You know, the city in California? In the United States? A real list of all the amazing food items that were invented in this country (baked alaska, potato chips, Buffalo wings, lobster newberg, beef on wick... the list goes on and on) plus a list of food that, although originating elsewhere was perfected and improved in the United States (hambergers, pizza, ice cream, and so on) would be a nice start.

Heck, a list of the items created at Delmonico's in New York City when Charles Ranhofer was its executive chef would be a good start.


 * When I wrote that piece on Chop Suey, I said that it had its origins in China; surely that is the case? Was it not based on a Chinese style of cooking and created by Chinese immigrants? As such, I think it belongs alongside things like hamburgers and pizza, which in their US versions more or less dissimilar to the European things from which they were derived. Neale Monks 20:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Picture
My Hamburger picture show a French hamburger. The packaging from a French fast-food chain of restaurants is easily identifiable (at least for French people). Can someo US Wikipedian take is digicam to a fast-food restaurant to shoot a "real American burger" ? ;-) Ericd 21:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure a fast-food restaurant would be count in most American's minds as a "real American burger". Fast food (at least in the United States) is seen as low-brow and cheap fare, the lowest form of the food.  69.162.59.13

I agree. It was rather obvious that this hamburger is the "Giant" from the Quick fast-food outlet which is Franco-Belgian. I feel that a more "American" burger picture should be put.


 * The original picture has since been replaced by a plate of what seems like three "mini burgers" or as the caption reads: "three different hamburgers available in the restaurant, each with different toppings…"  While this has become a popular trend in some restaurants and establishments, its not always typical.  A current day "gourmet burger" is also not typical.  What's most pervasive are fast food burgers from Mc Donald's, Burger King, Jack In the Box, Wendy's and so on.   Then, there's smaller local establishments, typically known as "diners" or "coffee shops" that serve such fare.   At that, a classic American hamburger is a ground beef patty, set inside a round sliced bread bun.  Standard and basic "fixings" or (condiments) usually include lettuce, tomato and onion.  Then of course, there's always the "cheeseburger," which can be simply a meat patty with a slice of cheese melted over the top (maybe without other fixings).  Sauce condiments are basically as mustard, mayonnaise, ketchup, to which those can be seasoned or embellished with relish, spices and so on.  Sides to that burger are most often french-fries, if not fried "onion rings."  By tradition, most Americans eat hamburgers with a Coke, Pepsi or other soda drink, if not a milkshake.  Things like pickles may have been served at the side, then one day added into the sandwich by certain operators.  As the most widely known "American food," this depiction, either by written text, or by photograph, should be made appropriate.  Variations should be noted.  Not all americans would sit at a diner and choose — or expect — to have three burger on their plate.Ca.papavero (talk) 06:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

NPOV and errors
I'm glad others are elaborating this article. However, I worry about uses of words like "perfected" when describing how a dish changes over time. Dishes may change, but there's no perfection in cooking, any more than any art.


 * I agree with that point in some ways. Using words like "perfected" suggests a cultural bias; as if the U.S. has adapted foods from elsewhere and somehow made them better, which is not necessarily agreed by foreigners or even Americans themselves.  For example, is pizza "perfected" by Americans, or is it something that's simply been embellished (or other regards) and different from the original Italian.  Pizza is nowadays seen all around the world, so how can Americans say its "perfected" here.  As many of us know, that's an insult to man Italians, too.Ca.papavero (talk) 07:34, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Also, to say "most American Cuisine is rustic rather than elaborate (when compared to French Cuisine, for example" is simply silly; French cuisine is famous for the regional, rustic styles. Normandy style, Provencal style, etc. To imply that all French cooking is haute cuisine is highly misleading. That would be like saying most Americans eat the the same dishes as those served in the Drake and the Waldorf Astoria. There is fancy American cooking, and there is fancy French cooking.


 * Another excellent point. Every cuisine of the world has so-called "high cuisine" and what's often seen as average.   At that, it's mostly subjective, since it does not matter if a person is "high-classed" and so on, to determine if they actually prefer so-called rustic and provincial foods, versus the assumed privileges and status of high cuisine.Ca.papavero (talk) 07:34, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

While there certainly are uniquely American foods, we need to be careful about identifying them. Chowder, for example, is French (the word is derived from the French for "hot" and similar dishes exist in Brittany even today. While the name "chowder" may be American English, the dish itself certainly has far older roots . Likewise, candy bars evolved independenly all around the world in different guises. From comfits in Tudor England to halva in the Mid East and halwa in India, the basic portable, sugary snack is pretty well ubiquitous. Certain brands and flavours may be very American, but there are unique French and British and other candies. (The very word candy comes from an Ancient Indian - Sanskrit - word "khaṇḍa", meaning chunks of sugar.)


 * I would think that it's more important to discern the nuances between an American chowder, versus that of French or British, etc. That's if possible, or the example would provide worthwhile insight to American cuisine, such as by ingredient, preparation, foldaways, etc.  For example, if migrants brought a dish from somewhere else, perhaps they substituted ingredients and make-shifted techniques to adopt it to their new place.Ca.papavero (talk) 07:34, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Steering a neutral point of view between the the historically accurate and the pejorative criticism is something which needs to be done. Outside of the US, the perception of American food is highly stereotyped, in perhaps the same way as Americans view French or British cooking. Why is this? Why is American cuisine not seen as one of the world's great cuisines in the same way as (broadly) French, Indian, or Chinese?


 * The U.S. is a vast nation, with fifty states, many geographic regions and incredible multicultural diversity; so, I think this would be a continuous and laborious undertaking to reveal the many interpretations of the national, aside from regional and specifically local cuisines. Creating agreement on that, is also a challenge.  This article struggle from being too generalized, while also avoiding becoming too specific about all the diversity that makes up American life and culture.Ca.papavero (talk) 07:34, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Cheers,

Neale

Neale Monks 20:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

So America doesn't have variations of Chowder that are uniquely American? Also because Candy is made in Britain and the word comes from an old Indian word, somehow America doesn't have any types of Candy that are indigenous to the Nation? Pffft.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.246.204 (talk) 06:23, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

This Entire Article needs help
American cuisine exists: look how many cookbooks there are covering the subject, and how many restaurants around the world purport to sell the stuff. Whether it's a cuisine as sophisticated, technically demanding, or simply as tasty, as some of the others are all good questions for chefs and critics to discuss. But to deny the value of this article out of hand is a bit extreme. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 23:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If you look at the Problems with defining American cuisine section, you'll see this point is made. Apple pies are indeed originally from Europe. But within the American idiom, apple pies are perceived as being a very American food. This is obviously erroenous from the purely historical perspective, but from a cultural one it's important, because Americans see apple pies as being traditional. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 11:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * thx to Ans. me,

SO? Argentinian cuisine is mostly french, italian, spanish and german too. But we have adopted many of them and the ones consumed in the same way are still Argentinian food even when is also french, italian or whatever.

American have a cuisine! what about peanut butter, popcorn, hamburgers???? and the rest of the foods adopted from other countries, you don't eat Italian pizza in the same way that italian-american ancestors in Italy as we don't eat it in the same way either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.232.226.252 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Pizza is an italian thing no matter how you eat it or make it, apple pie is a dutch/english thing, american cuisine its made up of other countries cousine.-Rafax 14:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Most cuisine around the world is evolved from some other country's cuisine. Pizza in the United States has evolved sufficiently from its Italian origins to constitute a cuisine of its own. RLent (talk) 22:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think some people are mixing up describing American cuisine with authentic American cuisine unique to the United States. No-one in their right mind would say Americans invented hamburgers, pizza, macaroni and cheese, French (Belgian!) fries, apple pie, candy bars, chowder, etc. Cookbooks with those dishes pre-date the founding of the United States, end of story. It's perfectly obvious that generations of immigrants brought those dishes with them to the US, changing them to small or large degrees depending on various factors. But that's worth exploring in this article: how and why these changes were made, and in what ways (if any) an Italian pizza and an American pizza (for example) differ. If you go to an American book store, you'll find lots of "American cookbooks" filled with recipes that Americans often think are uniquely theirs; this article should explore that, and show how the roots of much of what Americans view as "their" cooking in fact connects them with the ancestors from England, Germany, Mexico, China, West Africa, etc. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 19:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't this be about what US actually eats? There must be plenty of statistics available - I suspect that a list of what US actually consumes would have little resemblance to this article. Fourtildas 06:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Apple pie is NOT derived from a European food, it IS a European food. In the Canterbury Tales apple pie is mentioned, and I doubt Chaucer was American. Ninington 10:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

A nation's cuisine is not defined by who invented what or where something descended from. It's defined by what Americans eat. This article explores regional variations and ethnic cuisine of the United States. Also, American pizza is way different than Italian varieties. I would call American Pizza a separate dish on its own. The article on the Hamburger clearly indicates its American roots.

European Nations don't have any indigenous cuisine by their own logic of stating that America doesn't have unique cuisine. Most dishes come from a long line of dishes dating back to this or that region of the world. Just quit being so damn Nationalist about food. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.246.204 (talk) 06:32, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Rename of Article to Regional Cuisines of the United States
This article is almost all POV or on regional cookery in the United States. It does not define one cuisine of the United State which the title of this article denotes. Cuisine of the United States denotes a National Cuisine. The article should be retitled Regional Cuisines of the United States which most of this article fits into and the article is a redirect from. Christopher Tanner, CCC 05:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)tanner-christopher
 * There is no "one" United States cuisine any more than there is "one" French cuisine or "one" Chinese cuisine. The best this article can do is explain where American cooking derives its inspiration from, and to educate people to the fact many supposedly American foods, like apple pie and pizza, have their origins in whole or in part elsewhere. This in itself justifies the article. As for where the *regional* cuisines come from, I agree, those are best handled in their own articles. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 22:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems obvious that a great deal of the debate on this article is due to the fact that there is no such thing as "American" cuisine. While all the cuisines of the world are in flux, there are styles, dishes, flavors that are distinctly associated with other cuisines. I think the responsible thing to do is remove the article, or refine and rename it as regional/historical cuisines of the U.S. The talented chefs, critics and gourmands of the country need not worry; just because there is no classical American cuisines does not mean there is no fine cooking. While there is no clear "cuisine," there is an American gastronomy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.108.201.243 (talk) 21:46, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Untitled
The article is just.. bad. First, it is far longer than it should be. The historic background should be removed entirely to appropriate articles for those interested in Native American and Colonial American cooking. Modern American cooking, on the other hand, should be explained in some detail, and, yes, fast food should be brought up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.155.110.196 (talk) 00:28, 9 July 2008 (UTC) 

·I agree that this article neglects things like popular popular food trends and the influences of things like fast food, as well as that of corporate food chains, conglomerated food manufacturers and brands, etc. A good portion of American food culture is driven from commercial interests. But, the history of this article seems to have heavy influence from both an academic and culinary (chef) type's imagination. It's high-minded, with exclusion to everyday people's habits of consumption and homemaking. A person does not have to know and cite academically "acceptable" cookbooks and "leading figures" to have an influence or understanding of their local or national foldaways. However, I do not agree that "historic background should be removed entirely." If the article was so edited, there would be no basis of understanding as it develops from section to section. Readers would be presented various points without any prior reference, therefore also without meaningful relevance. It would create a vacuous scenario, moving on to chaotic developments.~

List
I'm not sure if you actually meant to imply that all the foods on that list were American foods, or rather that they were a staple of the American diet, as many (if not most) are actually foreign foods.

Apple pies, for example, are either English or Dutch in origin (they were mentioned in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales). Chilli con carne is Spanish/Mexican. Fudge, chocolate chip cookies, pumpkin pies and pancakes are all of varied European origin. Even a Thanksgiving dinner is based on a traditional European Christmas dinner.

Of course, being a country of immigrants you may simply have meant to imply that those foods are part of the popular American diet, as opposed to being specifically American cuisine.


 * I'd say the list is things that are identified with the United States, not necessarily originating there or being commonly eaten. Wine did not originate in France, but they are commonly associated.  Apple pies did not originate in the United States, but a common phrase is "As American as mom and apple pie", and it is considered by the culture of the United States as a very "American food".  A food on this list does not imply that it isn't applicable to other cultures and nations, just that these are seen as very "American foods" by the people living in the United States, even if some of them are not common or are regional (such as grits).  I have quibbles with some of the items on the list, but I'd say "identified with by the local culture as being part of the national or regional cuisine" would be a good criteria -- one that the majority of the items meet. 69.162.59.13

I now realize why Wikipedia articles aren't acceptable as research. 'Cuisine of the United States' is a badly inaccurate entry. I'm not an expert about 'how to write a Wiki entry' so I'm not inclined to edit this article. I've lived in several states in the Deep South, I've long studied and prepared Southern cuisine. I was aghast at this opinion which has no reference to back it up:

"The diet of the uplands often included cabbage, string beans, white potatoes, while most avoided sweet potatoes and peanuts. Non-poor whites in the uplands avoided crops imported from Africa because of the inferred inferiority of crops of the African slaves. Those who could grow or afford wheat often had biscuits on their table for breakfast, along with healthy portions of pork. Salted pork was a staple of any meal, as it used in the preparations of vegetables for flavor, in addition to its direct consumption as a protein."

This is just quasi-PC junk. It's an opinion with little to back it. Class more than race influenced diet 160 years ago as it does today. Old libraries and vintage cookbooks from the turn of the 19th to 20th century would back me up on this. Black and white Southerners way back when as today traded recipes and shared foods which were deemed delicious. Yes, white Southerners ate the better parts of the pig and blacks ate the chitlins but disdain for 'crops of the African slaves'? What the heck does that mean? Which crops? White Southerners certainly love okra, for instance. So, somebody, please take out the opinions and replace with some facts. -Creole Mimosa  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mimosa Mirabella (talk • contribs) 03:39, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Right on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.47.124.97 (talk) 13:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Is there a reason the article uses the lable "American Indian" instead of "Native American". Is it ever correct to use the former? Azuefeldt (talk) 13:40, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Vegetarianism
Odd that the word "vegetable" does not show up in this article anywhere, much less "vegetarian"... If I'm not mistaken, Americans are far more likely to be vegetarians than nearly any other national people. Surely this deserves some mention.
 * While that's an interesting point... surely Americans are far less likely to be vegetarians than, say, Buddhists, Hindus, or Jains. Even subjectively, as a Brit who's lived in the Midwest United States, I find it much easier to eat and buy vegetarian foods here in the UK than in the US where the availability and range of such foods seemed much more limited. Perhaps different on the Coasts. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 22:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with original question posed above. There should not only be a section on American style "vegetarian" movements and lifestyle, but also the larger contributions of the early  American Vegetarian Society, the Temperance movement, Prohibition, Teetotalism and even the development of food products by the likes of John Harvey Kellogg,  C.W. Post and even Sylvester Graham.  Kellogg's contributions started at "a sanitarium using holistic methods, with a particular focus on nutrition, enemas and exercise. Kellogg was an advocate of vegetarianism and is best known for the invention of the corn flakes breakfast cereal," according to Wikipedia's own profile article of Kellogg.  So, it should not be a question of how popular vegetarian cuisine is currently in the American lifestyle (that is, if ever); but, more so with the consideration of early, historic developments to the national cuisine, food production, sensibility, etc.  As a food related article, it can simply consider a section on the American history and point of view of vegetarianism, which is indeed quite significant to our national culture.Ca.papavero (talk) 01:44, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Original research issues
This article has always suffered from a large amount of original research and will for sometime until secondary resources are written on the topic which sadly there are pretty much none because it is such a controversial topic. I have removed much of the POV wording and added tags for needed citations to many of the comments on this article and I re headed the article to fit along the conventions of some of the better cuisine articles on Wikipedia, namely French cuisine and Italian cuisine. Please refrain fro writing new POV material in the article without references as they are against Wikipedia policies of WP:NPOV and No original research.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 14:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Good job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.37.228.161 (talk) 19:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Ethnic and Immigrant Influences
I added in a section on ethnic and immigrant influences. While this seems to be mentioned "between the lines" of the text of the original article, I thought that it needed to be fleshed out more and also made to cross reference with what is happening on other wikipedia topics. I don't think you can truly understand American cusine without understanding the ethnic, race, immigrant and socially constructed history of the nation. What is more, I think this add a lot more "flavor" to the article, instead of assuming that American cuisine is nothing more than "mass culture" dervived from the colonial states and national expansion, etc. I think that the links to every hyphenated cuisine, such as Italian-American cuisine, Mexican-American cuisine, American Chinese cuisine and even Creole and Soul Food, contribute to this idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calitalia (talk • contribs) 22:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I see that the following comment was already added by someone: "This section includes a list of references or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks in-text citations. You can improve this article by introducing more precise citations."  While I am certainly willing to oblige, I am somewhat confused.  This is mostly crossreferencing other wikipedia topics at this momment, of which you will see several sources and citations on those pages.   All the same, if you have some suggestions where you would like clarity or support, then please give feedback, before you go and edit.  I will scratch my head in the meantime and do the best I can. Calitalia (talk) 22:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)calitalia
 * Even if the information is taken from other articles, you need to cite the information properly from the sources that their information originally came from much in the same manner the rest of the history of the national cuisine has been cited. Additionally this "new" section is very listy, has quite a bit of point-of-view, and doesn't flow with the rest of the article as it seems to argue against the the colonial period having any influence which is not true at all.  The statements on "immigrant" influence is honestly irrelevant as well because all of the influence on cuisine outside of the indigenous Native American population is in fact immigrant in nature.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 02:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This section about Ethnic and Immigrant Influences (within the article) needs to be updated. It's been over seven years since the section was created, seemingly without so-called "controversy" and deletion.  The original article quoted by from the National Restaurant Association (NRA) is now 10 years old; whereas, it has since proven the point that this is not merely a trend, but that it's established as being a "norm."  A recent look at articles, such as from the New York Times, on the same or similar topic justifies this as a notable subject with regards to U.S. food tastes and more recent culinary history and cultural phenomena.   Indeed, use of the words "ethnic" and "immigrant" influences are being used by the New York Times, as well as other publications, to describe this social development.  A paragraph from this New York Times article echoes that which was said from the NRA back then.  The NY Times says: "From 2010 to 2012, sales of ethnic foods rose 4.5 percent, to $8.7 billion. The Mintel Group, a market research firm, estimates that between 2012 and 2017 sales of ethnic foods in grocery stores will grow more than 20 percent. Mintel predicts Middle Eastern and Mediterranean foods will increase the most in that time in terms of dollar sales."  This article was published as of 2013, so it is quoting the NY Times from two years ago.  Of course, we are approaching 2017 in just two years, going forward.   I think more articles and other sources can further substantiate this section of the article.Ca.papavero (talk) 22:31, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Response against "Nativist" interpretation; “Where do we go from here?”
I read Chef Tanner's comments above (5 FEB 2008) and on a personal message (talk); whereas, some of it sounds reasonable, but some of it seems defensive, if not emotional.

Chef, I am guessing that you have put a lot of work on this and you don't appreciate others "messing" with your ideas or point of view. If that's the case, I sympathize with your toil, but at the same time I cannot whole heartedly agree with you. Certainly, I can work to provide more citations, as I am sure others would appreciate that, too. Although I do not think you can contest, nor ignore, the scores of wikipedia topics which are mentioned in this section and as well as on other wikipedia pages; and of which are either "verifiable" or "not"; but, nonetheless, they reflect and constitute so many contributions and so many people therein that you simply cannot dismiss them as being "not relevant."

I cannot ultimately confirm your actual intentions, but I do have questions which I think should be asked and discussed. I am not just responding to your recent critique, but about the entire article to which I have not edited, but only inserted a “new” section. For one small contribution, I am surprised that I got such a reaction. Anyway, Here are some of my concerns:
 * I don't mind anyone working on the articles in which I have contributed. This is Wikipedia, that is the manner in which the "project" expands.  All editors who work with me know that I do not take "ownership" of any article.  I also did not state that the information is not relevent, I stated it is out of context with the rest of the article, the information belongs properly in line with the historical portion of the "national cuisine" w/o POV, cited properly.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 13:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you mean when you say "out of context" with the rest of the article? You again seem to be suggesting the arguement of a "main" "nativist" culture and what would be a "sub-culture" of ethnic minorities, immigrants and other influences.  The reason to make a new section unto itself is not just to place the idea on equal par with the "original 13 colonies," or the "regional influences" and so on; but, also because the way that the article is currently written it makes it very difficult to introduce more than one idea into the same paragraph or same section.  To me, this article was not very "encyclopedic" when I found it and nor is currently.  It reads too much like an essay.  It starts with the colonial idea and moves outward from century to century with too cumbersome an approach and too much with a seeming "one" thesis.  This thesis of "nativist" idea is now riddled throughout the entire article, despite that you say that it is "sourced and referenced."   Its referenced too much in the same direction.  As I too have written thesis work, I have also been instructed in earlier years to have "diverse" sources, boh in point of view and in type of media.  However, this is neither a "thesis," nor an essay and the writing format and style should change to be more accessable, flexable, digestable and as well as be broken down to more succinct paragraphs and sections with specific, identifiable factors in each.69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC) calitalia


 * You claim that "this 'new' section is very listy," but, you ignore the fact that other sections in this article are in fact doing just the same.  For instance there is currently section three, which is indeed only a link to "Common dishes found on a regional level" and which then that takes the reader to a page that is in fact a nothing more than avery long list of nothing more than link after link topics.  Don’t get me wrong, as this is not a terrible problem for me; but, as case in point, let's not be hypocritical.  Also, the section called “Notable American chefs" is also a list, although in seeming paragraphed form.  However, this “chef” section does not nearly seem to reflect the ethnic, cultural and stylistic diversity that is neither today’s America, nor its cuisine.  I am sorry, but as a well traveled anthropologist, chef, and foodservice entrepreneur myself, I know that there is an entire world out there other than New England Cuisine and French Haute cuisine or East Coast cuisine.
 * Those sections you refer to are in fact lists on another page and are intended to be lists, I imagine you are new to Wikipedia from glancing at your user page. There are appropriate places for lists and the main article is not that place.  The section with notable American chefs has been there for sometime and needs to be incorporated into the time frame as well or removed to its own "list" article.  IF you read French cuisine] or [[Italian cuisine you will see and example where chefs are incorporated into the history.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 13:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't necessarily agree with this point, but let me play the devils' advocate. Why not have the "main" article be the list and the supporting articles thereunder as being the more specific and textual; hence, the opposite of what you are suggeting.  This is what I mean by alternate point of view and imagination.  Also, sometimes listing inside a history that is in paragraph form is good, sometimes it is not.  I can only imagine that if we surely listed every chef of diverse origin and style, which I suggested in the above, then it could actually become quite long-winded and discourage readers.  I believe this is why we use lists and tables; but also because of diverse presentation, interest and point of view.  Your point of view is not just text, but the context and the media that you are using.  (Yes, I studied sociology and writing too).  Finally, I am not new to wikipedia and don't assume anything about me or my online identity.  Its my choice to be anonymous, ironically so as not to have assumptions made about me. 69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)calitaia


 * You claim that this “new” section has "quite a bit of point-of-view." I cannot agree AND disagree with you more.  It’s not just, as you say, that the section "seems to argue against the colonial period having any influence which is not true at all."  This original article, prior to this "new section" was very biased towards what I call 'nativist'' history and cuisine.  I am not arguing against British-Colonial influences on the national cuisine, but you seem to be ignoring the entire other world that is outside of that.  What is more, the text of the rest of the article was left in tact, only inserting the new section.  So, how dare you dismiss the majority of Americans who are in fact from immigrant experience and refer to them as being nothing more than a "point of view" and an “irrelevant” one at that?     That is outrageous, as these people and their experience are a true fact of American life?  I have yet to even include more recent “immigrant” or ethnic groups to the American scene.  But, with the sound of your tone, I guess that could be contested, too.
 * As I stated above, I was not stating the ethnic influence is irrelevant, it just belongs in the proper time line of the historical section of the article. The defensive tone was not taken by me, and it is necessary for you to take it either.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 13:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * See my commments above; but, what is more, there is no real "timeline" for ethnic or immigrant influence in America, other than what I already outlined in the new section. Its conceptual but somewhat elusive at the same time, because it is an ongoing phenomenon from so many different angles through the expanse of time with various emphasis in that continuum.  Who are you or anybody else to say where and when and how to interject this influence.  Certainly you can try, where it seems obvious and appropriate, but again this can be quite burdensome and a slippery slope to climb.69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)calitaia


 * You make only tangential references to what you seem to think is competing with the "main" culture of the United States. As for the other “point of view,” you have not worked very hard at including and sourcing any current text into the article.  In case ou have not realized, the definition of source is not just a noun, but a verb!  So, I suggest you put some real meaning into the text, context and very language of this article.  That is the true, unbiased ethic of writing: to state alternate points of view and not some fanciful illusion of it.
 * Wikipedia does not allow primary research in its articles, so the information (the only section I have worked on so far is the historical portion of the national cuisine, so don't mistake any of the rest of the article as my work) I have added has been properly sourced, originally in Chicago format, but changed to fit Wikipedia's format.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 13:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see this as being "primary research." All work is work in progress, as the debate and defense never ends.  This is the nature of discourse and the very meaning of "thesis."  Its not static.  Also, I have not assume all this is your writing, but if you are going to defend all its point of view, than that too is your own.  Either you defend it, or you argue against it.  Indifference argues in favor of the status quo.  Myself, I think there needs to be changes.69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)calitaia


 * This entire discussion is similar to Martin Luther King's question and point of view to our national culture and history, "Where do we go from here?" Either you include diversity, or you have false consciousness.  In my "point of view," your "nativist" approach is what is actually incredibly biased.
 * That is an interesting argument, but the information which I have researched comes from multiple historians and anthropologists.
 * See my previous response. Being an anthropologist, historian or whatever is not enough.  Quoting sources is not enough.  I can quote any source to make any point.  Any idiot, not necessarily you Chef, can do that.  The objective of a good reader or writer is to take notice of diverse points of view and "source" (from the verb) different points of view.  For example, I would hope that in your own thesis work, you use not only wikipedia, but other competing media.  We call this "analysis."   My brother does this for a living in the financial world.  I assure you that if he did not do his "analysis," then his employer would lose lots of money and he would be surely fired from his job.   For instance, when your customers are dining in your restaurant, they don't only look at what is on their plate, but on other peoples' plates and what they get at other restaurants in the "perceived value."  If we cannot address this problem, then I think wikipedia has some serious issues of credibility.69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)calitaia


 * Even if, as you next say, it "doesn't flow with the rest of the article," then maybe you need to allow other people to contribute their point of view, as well as assist them in their voice and their point of view and not be so controlling and reactionary in your own stance. Most wikipedia articles include more than one voice, all drawn in consensus.  This takes cooperation.  Why should this page be different, especially on such an important, main and far reaching topic as “Cuisine of the United States?  This is a cuisine of the people and by the people… not your own seperate cuisine in your own exclusive words.
 * Read my other comments, you missed my point.
 * Ibid. feel the same.69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)calitaia


 * What I mean, to take it more lightly, is as if to ask: what do you expect from a ‘new’ contribution?
 * Every sentence, paragraph, section and page has to start somewhere and then evolve. This page is also part of several series on cuisine, culture, history and so on.  I would suggest trying to be open and supportive, versus closed and dejecting.  Maybe we can expand this project that way. {Somehow, this paragraph was missing]69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)calitaia


 * Finally, I really do not want to assume the intention of your comments too much, but I hope you do not truly mean what it sounds like when you claim that "the statements on 'immigrant' influence is honestly irrelevant as well because all of the influence on cuisine outside of the indigenous Native American population is in fact immigrant in nature." If I took this statement entirely and literally to task, that would mean that this entire article has no purpose for existence, other than to talk about indigenous Native Americans.  It’s always been my understanding, since the time I lived in New York City and looked at its multicultural diversity and out to Ellis Island and the Statue of liberty, that it is in fact a nation of immigrants and, of that, from quite diverse ethnicity.  You cannot hold back the flow of history, the interconnectedness of the world’s peoples and their cultures.  We are all connected here in America, but also in histories and stories that are much more profound.
 * You took my comments in the wrong context, but NYC is certainly not indicative of a cuisine of the entire country, but I will not argue its importance as obviously that is where Italians, Irish, Polish, Russians and other ethnicities have come into the country and eventually made their contributions to the country. One can not argue the importance of Italian cuisine to the United States, again following precedence of other "GA" level articles in Wikipedia, it should follow the historical context of the article.  To have an entirely separate section would mean that each country would need a separate section for immigrant influence.  For instance in Italy we would have to make a separate section stating the Germanic influence to the north, and arabic influence to the south, etc. but if you read the Italian cuisine article, they are written into the time-line so that the information makes sense to a reader go through the article.  I hope that made sense, if not I can clarify my meaning. --Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 13:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You seem to be arguing my point now that I have clarified in the above. So, why not have a brief section as I have introduced.  Surely, I am not against changing aspects of the new section.  I never said that.  But I think its better than what you are suggesting.  Its impossible, nearly I should say, to follow through with such an idea as you suggest.  But the current sections of the rest of the article are also failing.  How else can you evolve, unless you allow yourself to be more liberal in accepting the current conditions and then try to move forward with the realizations.  This entire article is still in "stater" status by the designation of the wiki-editors.  So, I don't really get your point.69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)calitaia


 * I hope you are not suggesting two Americas on two different pages (or more); as for example, one of "nativist" origin and another for all the other "immigrants." How should we divide this up, Chef?  This sounds like "Gangs of New York" to me.   It’s peculiar to me, because I am from crossed American heritage:  one part from New York State and the other from California.  Yet, you want to cut my body and soul in two, toss me to the mad dogs and call me irrelevant!  What have I ever done to you?  Don’t you realize that the wikipedia guidelines also call for the initiative to cross-reference and prevent over duplication of topics.  This means you have to be inclusive, but also prudent.


 * I know that not all of this country was founded in the original 13 colonies! Chef, my mother was born not too far from where you are currently working in the Catskills of New York, but she came out to where my father's family is in California.  I went to college in the neighborhood where our fine U.S. Constitutional fathers found convention in New York City, and I am glad to be part of that heritage.  But, I know that certainly not all of my culture, like the culture of our nation, its state laws and very regional experience is in fact from that same "point of view". Can you explain that?  I do realize that some East coasters can often forget the history of the Western States; that is, if they ever learned it at all.  Do you realize how long ago the Spanish were in the West, as well as what the influence of that civilization was, as well as continues to be on our modern day country?


 * I hope that I don’t sound angry or resentful, but this is not just a tangent history to your "colonial cuisine" influence." It is not just a passage here and there in your current text of the article. I am sorry, but the real fact of the matter is that the majority of states and territories in our current union were NEVER originated by Colonial Britain; as they were either part of the Great Expansion or originally part of an altogether different empire or an altogether different territory of a different trading companies and trading nation. Every state in this union approaches history from a "different point of view," which is the miracle of this country and the very basis of its democratic social construct.  You may not be able to tell every detail, but you yet to even begin the basic concepts.  I think I have helped provide part of the outline, if not basis, to where you I think we should go.


 * And that leads me to the next point, which is that the section of "regional cuisine" in this article is sadly non-sufficient.  Like I just said, the entire United States is not just made up of the "New England States," but as it stands now, the current section would have us believe that falsehood.  Bizarre as it may seem, much of the history of this country was actually labored by so-called immigrants long before there were ever even boarders and a federal union of the 50 states.   If you see the history of Italian-Americans, Portuguese-Americans and Spanish-Americans, for instance; then, perhaps, you will see that all these people share a common heritage from the diasporas of Europe to ALL the Americas.  Their original point of view was actually formed by people other than the British, like Amerigo Vespuci, Christopher Columbus and even the long lost friend of our constitutional father Thomas Jefferson:  Filippo Mazzei
 * This section just hasn't been worked on yet, it is still an old portion of the article.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 13:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know you pointed that out. But, its hypocritical of you to be so judgemental of me and liberal to the rest of the article.  Are you really for the status quo or do you think this article needs some overhaul?  I am not suggesting overhwhelming, sudden change; but, I do think we should get under way with some purposeful and ardent editing. 69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)calitaia


 * You might learn something from Mazzei. He lived nearby Jefferson and helped theorize our very constitution, as well as provided agricultural, gastronomical and culinary contributions to the nation before its very founding.  He was an Italian “immigrant,” and as much as he was an Italian, he was also an early “American,” before the word was even coined as such.  This might change your idea about social constructs and human identity.  Mazzei not only conceptualized it, but made it your reality more than some 200 years ago.  Why discredit him?  I am like Mazzei and I hope you are too.

Please don't take this writng as an attack, but as a serious and passionate dialog (if not debate) on what I think are some very important subjects.69.109.221.76 (talk) 10:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)Calitalia


 * You missed the part where I said the article is certainly not finished. I don't disagree that information about "ethnic" immigrants is important, however it belongs in a proper context of history, not in its own section.  This goes along with the conventions of the other cuisine articles which are at a "GA" level.  You have stated that the colonial information is written pov, but it is not, it is written from well-known respected authors on the subject from a neutral pov.  The information you have added should follow along the same level.  As you say you are a "traveled anthropologist" then it would be great to see you use that skill to properly source the information and place it into the historical portion of the article where your expertise fits well.  Having another person who studies the anthropology of food on Wikipedia is indeed a good asset.
 * I have already responded to all this in my above cross-dialog.69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)calitaia


 * I myself concern myself with sociology in a historical context with all of my research. My thesis is actually being written on identifying a national cuisine of the United States and that work has kept me from adding anything new recently to this article and in fact you inclusion of ethnic influence is an important part of my research, but as I stated it fits in a time-line.  One can not argue against this influence because these ethnic cuisines have become part of our commercial chain restaurants like Macaroni Grill, Pizza Hut, Olive Garden, Taco Bell, which many have now moved outside of our borders and as such are recognized as American cuisine contributions, not from their origins as they have been adapted to the heavy protein and starch influenced diet of the United States, this influence dates back from the Puritanical influence from the Colonial era "meat and potatoes diet" because as you probably know much of Italian cuisine before the immigrants came to the US was more vegetable based but became meat based with the abundance of cheap meat supported by the American culture.
 * Interesting, but Italian-American cuisine in this country is much more than what you mentioned. I am Italian-American and have also worked in Italian kitchens in Italy.  My family has been in the food industry for generations from different parts of Italy to the United States.  Some of my heritage is in the American beef industry, but also its pasta, olive oil, wine, food distribution, foodservice and so on.  So, I am well aware of this.  This onlyh contributes to my sentiment that this article is extremely biased, not just in its point of view, but in its format and style.  I am a sophisticated multi-faceted person, not a mass-cultured stereotype and not a footnote or side story.  It is very upseting to have people assume things about any aspect of identity or culture, either as an American or as an Italian.  There is not just diversity from outside myself, but within my own identity.  That I feel is the true awareness and self-realization.  That is the true story of America, its history and culture.  Because, aren't we all like this?  69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)calitaia


 * So in conclusion, I was not arguing at all for this information to not be included, I just would rather see it place in the proper place in the article as I am sure other would agree, with proper citations and written in a verbal prose that does not include lists, but is written in a way that "reads" in a fluid manner.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 13:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but as said, there is "no proper place" per se. To further my point more poetically, let me borrow the lyrics of Annie Lenox and Aretha Franklin, and then consider these "fluid" words:
 * "Now, there was a time/ when they used to say/ that behind ev'ry great man/ there had to be a great woman./ But oh, in these times of change,/ you know that it's no longer true./ So we're comin' out of the kitchen,/ 'cause there's something we forgot to say to you." (lyrics "Sisters are doin' it for themselves")
 * I think I have made my point on the rest. I hope to oblige, as well as be obliged in return. 69.109.221.76 (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)calitaia


 * Quite honestly I don't have the time to go through this entire conversation to reply on a whole, I think you have taken my comments way to personally, especially with stating I am hyper critical of your work. If you look back into the history of the article, myself and other editors have removed much of the old article which was unreferenced and POV and updated it to its current state.  The other sections were only left as they had not been "fixed" yet.  I only wish you would place this ethnic information in the time-line portion to the article, which can be found from references, this I know because I have numerous texts with these topics of ethnic influence, as I stated I am extremely busy right now and do not have the time to add them right now.  As for the early Spanish influence, I will agree with you again that there is obvious influence, but it can still go into a time-line, placed in the colonial section as obviously the Spanish were colonists as well, just on the other side of the country.  I'm disappointed that you don't seem to agree with the time-line direction of the cuisine history, so all I can ask is that you properly source your information and try to make the section read individual then, not as an essay that comments on the earlier sections.  Also just as a note, my father was born in Ireland from an Irish father and Polish mother and my mother in Germany from a German father and French mother, so do not have a "bias".--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 00:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Additionally, please take a couple minutes to fix the red links. Many of the links you added have articles, the articles exist under other names and it would make their addition more useful to a reader.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 23:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I realize that. It came to realization later.   I will try to get on it soon.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calitalia (talk • contribs) 23:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Highlighting in Bold & Paragraphing
While trying to re-analyze the article, I found it difficult and not very user-friendly. After some toil, I figured out some patterns. I therefore created "bold type" leaders into certain paragraphs, as well as use of some sub-paragraph bullet points. I think it makes the article read much easier, as well as more evident as to how it actually functions. Before that, many of the paragraphs and sentences just ran together in a hodgepodge. For example, paragraphs listing meats, vegetable, fruits, seafood, etc.-- as well as certain cooking practices-- were all unrecognizable in a long string of sentences. Nor could you tell paragraph from others, for that matter, as they seem to run on off the topic sometimes and at too long of a lenghth. They lost focus or clear purpose. Anyway, I am hoping this will also allow analysis for furher development and expansion. You should be able to easily read to see what is there and what can be added and in what context and what section of thought and so on.Calitalia (talk) 11:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)calitalia
 * The bolding is not something normally done on a Wikipedia article, it makes the article a little difficult to read as the bolding is very distracting in my opinion. Perhaps we can just break these lists of ingredients, which I agree are large, into sections.  If you look at other articles, the bolding is not part fo Wikipedia articles conventions, if you could please remove them and I will fix the listing.  I think adding proper content is more important than this issue right now.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 12:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Your own style is a compromise towards a clearer format; but, of course, I like my own proposal better, if not something more towards that direction. I realize that some of what I did is not necessarily consistent with other like articles, but I weighed that against other problems and decided otherwise. For instance, in the first section under "Pre-1492' it is now not evident that this deals entirely with Native Americans and their cuisine.  We simply have headers that say "Common ingredients" and "Cooking Methods."  From there, we go into "Colonial Period" where the style of header is mildly different and not easy to discern from other sections unto its basis.  Finally, we get into the same problems again, as we go forward from paragraph to paragraph without apparent discernment to its flow into "Southern Colony Variations."   Much of this part of the article under "National Cuisine, up to 20th century - 21st century, is actually listing key ingredients and resources available to colonists.  But, its hard to determine those items from one another, let alone from the other conceptual ideas that make the cuisine and lifestyle; that is, when they are stringed together as such.  Anyway, I am willing to compromise myself, but I do think it can be still clearer than as it stands.  My own way also included key identifiers at the start of many sentences that allowed readers to zoom in and out very quickly for the information that they want, without having to read cumbersome lists that go on and on and on.  Its always been my experience, even outside wikipedia, that when you have long lists, in whatever style of writing (i.e., business, social research, categorization, etc.), then you break it off into paragraphs with headers and leads.   Most people I know don't want to have to read though lengthy listed material to find what they want and need, as it can be very annoying.  Plus, to the reader that is looking for more conceptual ideas, versus categorical items, it makes the article look as if its bloated with lots of fillers and so on, versus real content.  I think that is partly true here.  Having studied Anthropology, I feel that its not enough to list items of ingredients and resources, as much as it significant to explain or describe the nuances of how we use these ingredients and tools and with what care or regard we have for them.  For instance, if I give an apple and orange to an individual of one culture, versus to a person of another, the outcome of what they do with those ingredients is truly what signifies their culture.  Its not just what they have or have not in their basket, nor what they disdain.Calitalia (talk) 20:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Calitalia
 * In reference to "For instance, if I give an apple and orange to an individual of one culture, versus to a person of another, the outcome of what they do with those ingredients is truly what signifies their culture," that is why there is a section on cooking techniques. This is going to continuously go in circles, could you at least start by referencing your own work, before criticizing the rest.  BTW, I have studied anthropology as well, for my masters degree directed at food.  I think there is just a lose of what I am trying to explain to you and I have way too much going to get frustrated with this article.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 00:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

"Ethnic" influence
I was asked by Christopher to comment the discussion here, and my recommendation is that the useful aspects of "Ethnic and immigrant influence" be integrated with the section which I have renamed "History" and "Regional cuisines". How, when and where a cuisine has been influenced by outside forces is certainly good information in a cuisine article, but I don't think having a dedicated section for that purpose is a good idea. The entire notion is also kinda plagued by the artificial and completely gratuitous division of "ethnic" and "immigrant" culture. "Ethnic" in an encyclopedic sense refers to cultures and societies of any kind, not just "noble savages" (the huge variety of peoples that are defined as Native American) and various creole groups (Latin Americans and the descendants of imported African slaves).

Without going too much into the entangled discussion above, I'd like to stress that the modus operandi defined by the Wikipedia community is pretty clear on how to write articles: Reliable sources are required when explaining contentious, controversial or complicated facts. If one follows these guidelines it's rather difficult to "quote any source to make any point". I would also like to express my strong disbelief in the general statements about how the chronology of influences on American cuisine (ei an aspect of American culture) has been lost in the mists of time. This discussion should be about the results of research in cultural history and the stance of scholars, not long-winded debates about the ethnic origins of individual Wikipedians or personal opinions about frustration with cultural hegemony.

In short, more fact discussion and fewer statements of principles, please.

Peter Isotalo 08:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Your statement "The entire notion is also kinda plagued by the artificial and completely gratuitous division of 'ethnic' and 'immigrant" culture," is totally uneducated and seems to ignore certain history and trends in this country. If you see the recent paragraph and quote about Chinese, Italian and Mexican food being the three big "ethnic cuisines" in the united states, then you might get my point.  Ethnic and immigrant influences have always been an influence in this country.  There is lots of information out there just like this that can be quoted.   Secondly, I don't know what you mean when you say "I would also like to express my strong disbelief in the general statements about how the chronology of influences on American cuisine (ei an aspect of American culture) has been lost in the mists of time. "  This sentence does not make sense to me.  Please explain.  Lastly, I don't know how you came up with your idea of "ethnicity' and your reference to "noble savages."  What are you talking about?? Ethnicity and immigration are regular anthropological terms, having nothing to do with such labels.  Ethnic cuisine is also a very common term used within the foodservice industry, and there are many more than what is named here.  Of those, many of these ethnic cuisines are becoming very popular in American cuisine and yet have even to be addressed in this article. Calitalia (talk) 09:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Calitalia

The comment about the "mists of time" is a retort to this comment (made by you under an IP-account):
 * ...there is no real "timeline" for ethnic or immigrant influence in America, other than what I already outlined in the new section. Its conceptual but somewhat elusive at the same time, because it is an ongoing phenomenon from so many different angles through the expanse of time with various emphasis in that continuum. Who are you or anybody else to say where and when and how to interject this influence. Certainly you can try, where it seems obvious and appropriate, but again this can be quite burdensome and a slippery slope to climb.'
 * Yes, well many immigrant and ethnic groups have been here, many of which originally in very small number and later such groups surpassed their own numbers within the Great Transatlantic Migration.  For instance, a few Italian and Chinese Americans were already here or had influence, but such numbers from those two groups were far greater after the turn of the last century.  What's more, in today's world, its not just Italian-Americans making Italian food, as the top three "ethnic foods" are everywhere in America and the trends are often independent of the history.

I don't know the exact scholarly situation is when it comes to the influence of

"Ethnic" has no anthropological or historical connotation related to any specific cultures. Neither Latin Americans nor the descendants of imported African slaves are more "ethnic" than British and French colonists, unlike what you argue in this edit summary. They are all immigrants in one way or another. When it comes to the use of the word "ethnic" in the food industry, it is merely a euphemism to describe anything that is deemed exotic enough to Western culture (the same goes for music or fashion for that matter). If all foreign influences on American culture, according to you even that of Native Americans, are "ethnic", then what isn't? Peter Isotalo 19:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Surely, we all know that the word "ethnic" can be used various ways. Let's not get into semantics about that, when we should obviously know the intention.  We all know that it can be used pejoratively, as well as more scholarly or technically to refer to the origins of any person or group.  You seem to be making an accusation against me that I don't know the difference, or that I am sloppy with such regard, which is plain rediculous.  You pick up most any book on American cuisine and the word "ethnic" comes to attention, whether it be of British, Italian, Chinese, Mexican, Native American or other origin.   I am not the one who is perpetuating the "nativist" versus "ethnic minority" thesis, as maybe you have overlooked that discussion in the above.  I am not the one perpetuating the "exotic" nature of "ethnicity" either.  Also, maybe you don't understand how the different paragraph areas under "ethnic and immigrant influence" works.  Both the "early" and "later" groups are made up of various ethnicities, but their difference has to do with a few nuances, such as when they arrived in significant number, indigenous versus immigrant groups, nationalized peoples (such as Spanish, Mexican, Arcadian and Creoles), as well as other diaspora of peoples brought here against their will, (such as African-American slaves.)  All these groups now live in the new, post-modern reality of America, providing a new post-modern, eclectic or globalized culture within the nation.  For instance, if you look at what Wolfgang Puck and Norman Van Aken are doing today, regardless of what they said in the 1980's, they have moved beyond the historic context and into a world that "just is" global in its point of view.  Many other chefs and foodies are doing the same.  Honestly, my own work and point of view in my carreer is not "global," but actually more regional and specific.  You are assuming that all this is my own point of view, when really I am just presenting it for the sake of an unbiased article with various points of views or realities.  Some of these point of views may seem unfounded to you, but I think they can be evidenced and developed, as they are works in progress, just like the rest of the article.  Don't knock it, but as Christopher has pointed out, have some "faith," before you assume or take contrary.Calitalia (talk) 22:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Calitalia


 * Take a look at the last paragraph of "Influences"-section. Whether deliberately or not, it makes a distinction between "ethnic" food and "American" food, even if the latter is placed in quotes. Keep in mind that an article has to be judged on its own merit without the need to read through complicated statements of purpose on the talkpage. And I would also like to add that there is no such thing as a world that "just is", and taking a post-modernistic view doesn't confirm it in any way. All aspects of culture have origins and most of them can actually be traced to one source or another. And I don't at all understand the point of denying that you're tackling historical issues. The text clearly discusses several historical events (primarily migration) and even presents a simple periodization ("early" and "later").
 * As for the sources, I believe your choice of sources is extremely narrow and appears more suitable for boosting your own opinions rather than trying to gauge consensus among researchers. Quoting the National Restaurant Association about the use of the term "ethnic" and then refering to rather random snippets from cookbooks to bolster the argument does not fly. You're trying to make points about cuisine history by citing lobby organizations and chefs that deal pretty much exclusively with contemporary food culture.
 * Peter Isotalo 17:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Beyond history: new conceptions of the old "melting pot" culture
I've noticed that much of this ongoing discussion seems to assume that all this article deals with "historic" fact, excluding contemporary trends, surveys and reports to the basis. Did it ever occur to you that I'm not trying to get caught up in the debate of historiography? The influences of a cuisine do not necessarily have to be profoundly historic, but mabye simply a contemporary trend or phenomenon. Sure, they may have roots, but that is beside my point. I think many of today's Americans and many of the nations' chefs are not so much looking at their cuisine as an "historic" appreciation, as much as they are looking at it as a unique phenomenon with the pleasure of a diverse palate that exemplifies today's America. Much of our social and political influences also embody that idea. Hence, please see some of the more "contemporary" statistics and contributions added into the section under "ethnic and immigrant influences." All said, don't get me wrong, because I do appreciate history and I think it has its place. But, maybe that's beside the point.Calitalia (talk) 12:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Calitalia
 * One, please avoid personal attacks in stating I am "uneducated." You have taken much of my writing here out of context in order to support your point-of-view.  Much of what you keep adding is a clear personal pov, and much of it is original research by reading information from cookbooks.  I also disagree with your assumption that Paul Prudhomme was the first chef to influence "ethnic" cuisine in New Orleans.  Justin Wilson was published and on television long before Prudhomme.  The rest of the various chefs you mention directly from their cookbooks and you are not offering sources that state the facts that these chefs are influential in supporting their regional ethnic cuisines.  I do not argue that chefs like Van Aiken, Puck, Waters, etc. are influential in supporting their regional cuisines, but secondary sources have to be used on Wikipedia, it is just a fact of the system.  The mere fact that you earlier state "I think many of today's Americans and many of the nations' chefs are not so much looking at their cuisine as an "historic" appreciation, as much as they are looking at it as a unique phenomenon with the pleasure of a diverse palate that exemplifies today's America" is showing a POV and not a fact found by an acknowledged author of any subject, be it anthropology, sociology or history, but quite honestly, most of what is discussed here is in the larger structure of sociology and history, much less the finite structure of anthropology, even your statements on chefs of the 20 century fall within recent history, not the statistics of "today".--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 13:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if I seemed to call you "uneducated," but that's a response to how you and your friend seems to be characterizing me. My true point in such is not to call you stupid, but to point out the fact that your library of knowledge and all its sources can be different than my own.  Its not to say that you are stupid, but that perhaps you have ignored or are not as familiar and supportive of the basis of knowledge that I present.  Indeed, its the same kind of debate found in the constitutional convention of this country.  Neither side was wrong or right, or necessarily ignorant, but came with their own knowledge base to create the consensus that we call the United States.  Like the new authors I presented (Prudhomme, Aken, Tower, etc.), this is a common idea in American cuisine, that was even founded in the turmoil of Julia Child in the mid to late 1970's, during the Ford and Carter administrations.  See her book "Appetite for Life."  Anyway, if you read these books, as well as others, you will see that they cross-reference, if not refer to each other.  They have all been in the national dialog, much of which continues today.  Granted, more evidence can be presented, but such are growing pains.  You guys are not giving me much of a chance and much of my time is being spent defending the new additions, instead of supporting and referencing them.  Finally, my earlier statement "I think many of today's Americans and many of the nations' chefs are not so much looking at their cuisine as an "historic" appreciation, as much as they are looking at it as a unique phenomenon with the pleasure of a diverse palate that exemplifies today's America" is a paraphrase of an idea for the sake of discussion on this page, not the actual article; whereas, in the article itself, I have already begun to support such claim and have more to add to it.  Its not just a point of view, but a statistical phenomenon supported by research in the foodservice industry.Calitalia (talk) 22:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Calitalia   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calitalia (talk • contribs) 22:36, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, I already urged you to be pro-active instead of reactive, so if you want to add Justin Wilson, then please do so. However, he seemingly has not had as much outcome as Prudhomme, who has come out with numerous popular books, product lines and currently has a televison show.  Many people recognize Prudhomme, whereas Wilson may be viable, but not nearly as visable or seemingly prolific for whatever reason.  But, add him in anyway, as I can only assume that it will support.Calitalia (talk) 22:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Calitalia
 * I am well versed in all pretty much the majority of food writing that comes out. My Masters degree is a Master of Gastronomy form Boston University which both Julia Child, Jacques Pepin and others helped to design, as such my readings involve a vast variety of historical food writing in both a traditional historical sense, an anthropological sense in my Anthropology of Food classes, sociological and otherwise.  In the past year we have discussed the influence of coffee, sugar, cocoa, potatoes and other ingredients.  Additionally we    Much of my contention comes from you not presenting proper sources and it seemed originally that you have been stating that the 20th century chefs and ethic influence has more importance over any other historical information, but perhaps I am wrong.  So going on good faith, let me suggest that instead of using primary sources for your additions here, you look for quality secondary and tertiary sources, as this is the "rule" of Wikipedia, I had to get used to it as well, I don't agree with it but one needs to conform to rules until one is published in Wikipedia's eyes.


 * I myself am publishing a book based on my thesis that actually has quite a bit of information of "ethnic" influence on American cuisine as it is "part" of the make-up of the cuisine, I just think you, myself and a number of other authors differ on the way to present this information. In your readings, besides much of the mainstream pop-food books sold on the book shelves, I may suggest "The World on a Plate: A Tour through the History of America's Ethnic Cuisine" by Joel Denker, "American Cookbook: A History"  by Carol Fisher, "Fast Food, Fast Track? Immigrants, Big Business, and the American Dream" by Jennifer Parker Talwa, "Food in the United States, 1820s-1890" by Susan Williams, "Celebration of American Food: Four Centuries in the Melting Pot" by Geraldine Schremp, "The Taste of American Place: A Reader on Regional and Ethnic Foods" by Barbara G. Shortridge and James R. Shortridge, "Foreign Food: The American Diet in Time and Place" by Richard Pillsbury, "Food in Colonial and Federal America" by Sandra L. Oliver, and "American Indian Food" by Linda Murray Berzok.  All of these books present the subjects that relate to the idea of a Cuisine of the United States without being biased by modern chefs and television personalities, who on a whole do not represent the majority of diners in the USA.
 * WOW! now we're getting somewhere! I actually feel like we're communicating now, after having read the above. Thanks.  And finally, you are admitting, like me, that we may have some different imagination as to how the information should be presented.  You make an excellent point about types of sources that we can reference.  Yes, a lot of it is popular culture.   Whether we are aware of it or not, I think perhaps America loves popular culture.  Dare I say, that a lot of our so-called high culture is actually pop culture.  You seem to be sayig that "mainstream pop-food books sold on the book shelves ' are part of that.  I don't know really, as perhaps there are different target markets, but I do think our country has an unusual preoccupation with celebrity chefs, especially in the very current society.  However, it can be Alice Waters, Paul Prudhomme and Charlie Trotter, or it can be Rachel Ray, Sandra Lee and Paula Deen.  The differences may seem obvious on a national mainstream level; but it may also depend on where you live and to what you have access or to what you have been exposed.  Anyway, try not be a slave to pop culture, but it is the common bond in post-modern America, by which we all relate and communicate.   I think its okay to use some popular sources as long as they have certain integrity and as long as they are balanced with other types of sources.69.109.218.39 (talk) 08:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Calitalia


 * The majority are not affected by chefs because people in this country do not part ways as easily with their dispensable income in restaurants or even cooking at home. I brought up Justin Wilson and as you stated most people do not know who he is, I will have to say though the majority of the country does not know who Paul Prudhomme, Alice Waters, Charlie Trotter, Thomas Keller, Grant Achatz, Michel Richard, Julia Child, James Beard, Craig Claiborn, Jacques Pepin, and other chefs/cooks are because they do not speak to main stream American culture or eaters.  They speak to a group of people who can "afford" to dine a certain way.  It is in this point that I would argue that these individuals have little affect on the over all scale of cuisine.  They are part of a small portion of "cookery", but not our over all cuisine, let's call them the American version of France's apostles of "haute cuisine".--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 23:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This is all very true and you are right. Its a good point.  However, let's also recall that many of these people are "cultural heavywheights" representing an entire repertoire.  In many ways, these peoples, their media companies/ publishers, investors, etc. are the "brokers" of mass culture.  But, frankly, its really no different than being sold the so-called more "accessable" mass culture of McDonalds', Olive Garden, Applebee's, Taco Bell and even the brands we see in supermarkets. Finally, living in the "intellectual world," where you protect yourself from all these influences can be an illusion, too; that is, if not a limited reality.  Like it or not, even the retail companies such as Whole Foods and Dean & DeLuca are "marketing" product lines in this country, just like Trader Joes, Safeway, Costco and so on.  Food sourcing is very different than the European style "farmers" markets, food production and local participation by everyday people and small producers, as I'm sure you know.   But, our country has many people pushing that direction, if it often doesn't seem like a struggle just to maintain such a way of life.   Many cities here struggle to have "farmer's markets," whereas in Europe, many small towns and big cities think of it as just a daily part of their life without any political or social strugle therein.  You go to your local street market every day or every week, much like Americans go to Safeway, Costco or Whole Foods.  Here in America, popular ideas are brought into society and then either they take mass appeal, or they are co-opted or incorporated; thus, they take on a life of their own in so many different ways as they evolve from one interpretation to another.  In popular, contemporary society, it becomes often hard to discern where ideas are coming from, because of that.  We introduce one trend, it becomes pervasive and then it evolves into the next one.   Having said all this, you can regard yourself as the subject of mass marketing, or you can look at what some people have done to get out of the reactionary stance and take control of their lives.  Truly that's the message of some food advocats after all.   If you look at what outreach efforts are saying to people that are obese or have diabetes, then you will get my point.  We all have to take personal control. Surely the commercial nature of our society sometimes seems to overwhelm that; but, that's the struggle in life, learning and self-actualization.  It exists everywhere in the world, although there are certain nuances to the journey that make it an American experience.  The personal passions of life and self-realization have to become conscious into our functioning with the rest of society and the world at large, its realities and manifestations, and not the vice versa.  This is not just another point of view, but a common theme in any civilization, American or not.69.109.218.39 (talk) 08:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Calitalia
 * As a European, albeit a northerner, I have trouble recognizing myself in the description above. Could we spend a little less time and talkpage space on discussing your personal view of the world, Calitalia? This is a place to discuss article content and how it should be improved, not a philosophers forum nor an academic club.
 * Peter Isotalo 18:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, Isotalo, if you didn't spend so much time attacking me, maybe I could do that. I think I already addressed that very point, as much of my time is spent defending on this discussion page, not adding sources to the article.  Since you signed on to this article (in the time after I did myself), that has been the majority of the orietation.  From what I can tell, you have not contributed anything to this article other than editing and making attacks on me.  Anyway, what you seem to call philosophy has to do with lots of discussion on sytyle, interpretation and so on; but not only that, its explanation.  Frankly, you are stating your own point of view, as you just did and continue to do so.   Don't pretend your own point of view is unbiased.  And why don't you use your own advise for yourself.Calitalia (talk) 20:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Calitalia
 * Well I know Peter to be an unbiased editor who is looking out for the best of Wikipedia. He is also responsible for a large number of high quality articles on food and drink on Wikipedia, Medieval cuisine being one of his best efforts I have seen.  What he and I are both supporting is the use of proper unbiased sources, but your sources that you have been adding are primary sources which you are personally interpreting, this is why I listed a number of highly respected authors above.  If you are interested in addressing some of these 20th century chefs, which seems to be much of your emphasis you might look at The United States of Arugula by David Kamp (however, again this is a "pop culture" book) who mentions some of the items you address, but again these chefs are not anywhere near as responsible for the cuisine as a whole, they have a tertiary contribution to one style of restaurant cooking that the majority of people do not eat.  They are not "heavy weights" in the food culture as a whole, only to those who can afford to make their dishes from ingredients they must go out of their way to purchase along with their cookbooks or have the ability to access their recipes online.  Even the grocery stores you mention are not all that important in designing the main stream cuisine.  The majority of people can not afford to shop at Whole Foods or Dean & Deluca's, these are "specialty" markets.  Writing an encyclopedic article is not about promoting a "proper" way of eating either, it is about facts, not agendas.  I would still like to argue that the idea of "ethnic" cuisine belongs under history, much of what you are talking about is a 20th century contribution to the cuisine.  I repeat this because when one studies Italian cuisine one clearly would not state a separate section on the "ethnic" contributions of the Germanic tribes tot he north and then the Arabic invaders to the south.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC (talk) 21:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Rollback
I'm not too sure what happened in the last couple of revisions, but I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to use a talk page as a scratchpad for wholesale article revisions. Here is the last revision, in case anyone wants to move it to a separate page. Haikupoet (talk) 07:00, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Fast Food
I was so disappointed to see that the biggest part of Americana was left out! Fast Food is an integral part of American society, whether it be coming home from soccer practice with the kids, or a dinner out with the wife. Fast Food is so HUGE here in America and it should be added into this article. Add hyperlinks to articles on Taco Bell, Burger King, McDonalds. Come on, it is American Cuisine, to go!

--DiamondElusive (talk) 14:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've seen more Fast food here in the states than I did in London, that's for sure. Ron James 007 (talk) 07:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

No kidding. You've actually seen more fast food in the entire United States than in london. What an astute observation. lol Al PA


 * Ha! I was thinking the same thing working on the article. I did add pizza, how in the world could that be missing? Unless I missed that it was mentioned someplace and didn't notice it. It's so convoluted to me. Why don't you "guys" add to it. I'm actually just practicing editing on this page and other non-controversical pages to learn basic editing techniques and trying not to mess up too much. Or course, I'm careful to be acurate and to provide citations. It's overwhelming me, though. :/Catagraph (talk) 18:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe because fast food is an international thing? I mean, Taco Bell doesn't serve traditional American cuisine (it's Mexican, right?). Ron James 007 (talk) 19:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe because Fast Food is not a CUISINE. Just because it goes in your mouth does not make it cuisine. No, I know that might sound like pointless semantics or perhaps even the use of mere pedantics to justify a percieved pretension. But it is important to define what is meant by "cuisine". Do Oreos count? What about chewing gum? While fastfood and commercial food are undoubtedly popular in the US, I do not think they qualify as cuisine. Pizza, yes. Even hamburgers in and of themselves might fit the bill. But not Pizza Hut and Burger King. Why? Because cuisine implies art and culture, something made with care and which is a thing of passion. I do not really think many people over the age of 10 are "passionate" about fast food. No, perhaps that sounds unfair? Ok, how about this: I forget where I heard it, but I've heard it defined in this way: that in order for a food or type of food to be cuisine, it must be often discussed and argued about by a large number of people. For example: the intense and bitter rivalries over styles of pizza (Chicago vs NY). So while some common fastfood items (Burgers, pizza, hot dogs, tacos, etc) might qualify as "cuisine", fastfood itself doesn't really seem to fit... after all, it's not really a food it's just a preparation and venue style. Besides, when most people talk about cuisine they are talking about food dishes created by professional chefs and involve a level of culinary sophistication and finesse. I suppose the issue cannot be discussed without resorting to arguments such as these that sound a tad elitist or seem to be based on exclusivity and a certain level of pretension, but as I mentioned, almost anything can be considered cuisine, but then again look how vague the term "gourmet" can be--and there are many areas of overlap between the two concepts.

74.74.102.247 (talk) 16:34, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * So change the name of the article to "Food of the United States". Fast food may not be sophisticated, made with care, or evoke passion, but that simplicity and carelessness is part of the culture. Just because the US is one of the most different countries in the world doesn't mean we leave out the staples, just because they don't fit with the fest of the world's staples. 68.35.55.55 (talk) 01:40, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Huh? Read what the user wrote again.  We don't change the name of articles simply because large corporations feel they lack representation.  Fast food is about processing, manufacturing, and delivery.  It has nothing to do with "cuisine". Viriditas (talk) 05:25, 11 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Fast food should not be discredited as not being part of cuisine. The word "cuisine," by definition, is "a style or method of cooking, especially as characteristic of a particular country, region, or establishment."  Most simply, it's just "food cooked in a certain way."  There need not be a pretentious idea of what "cuisine" entails.  That's although all nations have their more profound, if not "traditional" food ways, which typically pre-date the fast food era.  Let's be sensible; because, fast food has been around for decades.  It's become part of the U.S. vernacular since the 1950s.   As I've already mentioned elsewhere, I agree that this article neglects things like popular food trends and the influences of things like fast food, as well as that of corporate food chains, conglomerated food manufacturers and brands, etc.  A good portion of American food culture is driven from commercial interests.   But, the history of this article seems to have heavy influence from both an academic and culinary (chef) type's imagination.  Just look at the next sections at this talk page, discussing "Notable Chefs" and "Style versus Styles [plural]."  Finally, although this seems to be a strong phenomenon in the United States, it is by no means exclusive.  In fact, many of the corporations that produce fast foods, as well as have controlling interest in fast food chains, are actually foreign companies.  We live in a globalized world, so to call this exclusively "American" is absurd. Ca.papavero (talk) 06:00, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Deletion discussion
See Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_April_12. Badagnani (talk) 22:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Notable Chefs?
OK. What's the deal with this list? I mean, really, who came up with some of these. Sandra Lee??????? She's not even a chef--celebrity cooking show host, sure, but not the title of chef. The list seems to lack structure or purpose, let alone organization. There's no real discussion of the difference between celebrity chefs, cooking personalities in popular culture, and influential chefs themselves. Emeril is listed as a chef, Bobby Flay is listed as celebrity chef. Isn't this list a bit capricious and arbitrary?? I'm not against subjective topics, but let's atleast handle it with a bit more clarity and consistency and better explain choices, shall we. 74.74.102.247 (talk) 16:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. This section is horrible. It might make sense as a "list of people who I've seen on TV", but even then, it should probably just be removed. Perhaps this should be replaced by past James Beard award winners? - Skuwamoto (talk) 06:40, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it is questionable if "notable chefs" should be mentioned directly in the text of any article about a cuisine. Such references should be kept to the footnotes or citations.  I often see articles that try to attribute a food, cuisine or dish to a particular chef, which seems rather hard to prove in any circumstance, if not incredibly rare.  Most foods and cuisines are not directly attributed to any chef, even if a recipe is provided.  Most recipes have been around for ages, whereas it's the interpretation, sharing, and other subtle nuances that make it someone's own.  Other than that, I don't even see a reason to site someone as an "expert" or "popular" figure here in the subject that should be directly about the cuisine itself and the cultural elements that contribute to it.  As a compromise, at least I would say that such list should be put as a link at the bottom, going to another page that is simply about cookbook authors or chefs and the like.Ca.papavero (talk) 01:57, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Style or styles?
The article starts off by saying "The cuisine of the United States is a style of food preparation derived from the United States." but I am not sure it should be referred to as a single style. There are so many different regional and cultural styles that it might be better to say something like "The cuisine of the United States consists of the styles of food preparation derived from the United States". I am not sure that is the best way to say it but I think it would be good to reflect the diversity of styles right from the start. I am a bit wary about jumping in and changing the first sentence as it can affect the tone of the whole article. What does everybody think? Is this a good idea? --DanielRigal (talk) 03:17, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The style of cookery can be as a whole for the country, which includes regionalism as well, the phrasing is correct. Changing the word to styles would not be grammatically correct.--Chef Tanner (talk) 13:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you sure about that? You wouldn't talk about a single American style of music that encompassed Hip Hop, Country and Western and Jazz, would you? Surely, you would talk about them as individual American styles? --DanielRigal (talk) 14:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The original question about "style" (singular) versus "styles" (plural), as well as what is actually grammatically correct, nonetheless made me think about the accuracy of the opening thesis of this article (as it currently stands), and as much as it also relates to the following sections and content therein. Currently it reads as follows:
 * "The cuisine of the United States refers to food preparation originating from the United States of America. European colonization of the Americas yielded the introduction of a number of ingredients and cooking styles to the latter. The various styles continued expanding well into the 19th and 20th centuries, proportional to the influx of immigrants from many foreign nations; such influx developed a rich diversity in food preparation throughout the country. "
 * The opening thesis fails to grasp the entire scope of the current article and doesn't quite get it right. Frankly, I'm not sure the term "styles" is sufficient to describe American food; but are we simply talking about national "foodstuffs," a "cuisine" (as relates to the kitchen), or the additional consideration of sociological/anthropological "foodways."  This article is seeming about much more than just "food preparation," which seems to be a technical term that is just one aspect of "foodways" theory; but it excludes such sensibilities as cultural identification, expression, community, heritage, tradition, modernity, etc., of which cuisine and gastronomy often concern itself.   Indeed, the article doesn't even consider the other things of sensibility that cuisine and gastronomy often entails: taste, feel, smell, appearance, ambiance.   Ultimately, the opening thesis mentions the influence of European colonization and immigration, but ignores the very ideas forwarded in the following section about "Early ethnic influences" (i.e., Native American Indians, African-Americans, Creoles, Puerto-Ricans, Hawaiians, Chicano-Americans, etc.) that are not even necessarily defined by such factors.  More than that, much of contemporary American cuisine is a fusion of various experiences, not necessarily exclusive to early or later influences that are profoundly historical, but maybe have some other idea, expression, economy or reason.  All considered, I think a shorter, more general thesis would probably suffice.Ca.papavero (talk) 05:17, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Tumbleweed needs disambiguation
I tagged the link in this article to tumbleweed with dn because "tumbleweed" can refer to any one of several plants, some of which are not edible. See Tumbleweed (disambiguation). --

Notes & Cites
I happened to look at the notes & cites in this article and noticed some problems and some wikitext citation style inconsistencies. Barring objection, I'll do some work on regularizing the style and marking the problems. See, for example, Notes 1 & 2 here. Comments? Objections? -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC) I changed that to ",, ; ; ; ; , and ." with the links hooking to the matching items in the references section. The {Opler 2001) cite is marked broken because I could not find a matching item in the References section. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 08:20, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What exactly are the issues you're addressing? I'm not clear on what the problem is. There are notes with page numbers that refer to the sources. Looks okay to me at a glance. ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:06, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, Here's what I addressed thus far:
 * The References section uses an unregularized mix of templated and hand-crafted cites. I'm regularizing that to templated cites throughout as I go along. I'm also putting in Harvcolnb templates in the Notes section to support navigation to matching References section items by mouse-click.
 * Ref 1 said "Hyde, p. 118.". I guess that refers to (Hyde 1959) in the References section, but I didn't make that change in the article as I haven't seen the cited item. Instead, I put the year in as "????" and marked it broken with an inline explanatory comment in the article.
 * Ref 2 said "Basso (1983: 467-470), Foster & McCollough (2001: 928-929), Opler (1936: 205-210; 1941: 316-336, 354-375; 1983a: 412-413; 1983b: 431-432; 2001: 945-947), and Tiller (1983: 441-442)."

I've completed an editing pass through this article editing the refs and cites as proposed above. I ended up tagging just one broken cite, (Opler 2001). -- Boracay Bill (talk) 21:45, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Cuisine of Allentown, Pennsylvania
Can someone here take a look at Cuisine of Allentown, Pennsylvania. I would not strike me as being particularly notable topic, but I may be wrong so don't want to XfD it myself. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 15:11, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Diversity
"...when the American Indians had a rich and diverse cooking style for an equally diverse amount of ingredients"

I'm confused by this statement. What does it mean by "equally diverse amount of ingredients"? How can an amount be diverse? Is it suggesting that the cuisines of the American Indians were very diverse, and that they used many different kinds of foods in these cuisines? Or is it making some comparison to post-colonial cuisines in America? I wanted to try to make this sentence less ambiguous, but now I'm completely confused as to what meaning it has. It seems like the opening sentences in this article could be a lot clearer and more precise.Jimjamjak (talk) 14:16, 18 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I just looked at the rest of the article and realised that it needs an awful lot of work. Maybe by getting a clear introductory paragraph at the beginning we might pave the way to generating a better article further down?Jimjamjak (talk) 14:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)


 * That statement appears to be a coatracking attempt by the original author on their political views, and adds nothing to the article. I've thus removed it.  If someone wants to reinsert it in better form, feel free.  Fell Gleaming talk 12:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Macaroons vs. Macarons
The very end of Section 1.3 (20th century - 21st century) mentions "Trendy food items in the 2000s and 2010s (albeit with long traditions) include cupcakes, macaroons, and meatballs.[28]" I don't think macaroons was meant here; they haven't been nearly as possible as the similarly spelled macaron. (The citation was a citation to an article on the popularity of meatballs.) I suggest an edit in that direction. Thoughts?

Cinderlei (talk) 04:38, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

New American cuisine
Could we get a definition of "New American cuisine" added to this page?

For some reason "New American cuisine" links back to this article, and yet it's not defined here. As far as I can find, the term is not defined anywhere on Wikipedia.

The section of this article titled "Ethnic and immigrant influence" talks about Chez Panisse, Wolfgang Puck, etc. and discusses California Cuisine. Seems like New American cuisine should be discussed there as well. Both the articles on California Cuisine and the Culinary Revolution article are linked to, and both of those refer to New American cuisine but don't define it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.36.139.129 (talk) 04:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

In addition, a Wikipedia search for "New American cuisine" redirects to this page instead of to the article with that exact title. iowaboy277 (talk) 02:09, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

To define "American Cuisine"
You could shorten and make this article concise by admitting that the whole point to "American" food is that it is MANUFACTURED. Through the history of United States, to what is available at the present vernacular food vendors, the goal was / is to achieve the industrial version of any little local or ethnic preparation contrivance. 66.119.193.155 (talk) 14:10, 22 April 2014 (UTC)Donovan Hellinger

That's selective, slanted and absurd: the U.S. cuisine is one of the best and most varied in the world. - Zorobabele — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.50.46.128 (talk) 18:26, 22 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Your comment is also "slanted". Both you and must adhere to WP:NPOV. Remember that bias can be both positive and negative. Mr. Guye (talk) 21:58, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Synthesis
The lead may contain improper synthesis. There are claims made there like "The cuisine of the United States reflects its history" and this might be a logical conclusion from sourced info in the body, but the references aren't in the lead. That's why there may be synthesis here. The body does have sourced content saying things like that American cuisine was influenced by the Native Americans, colonists bringing their cuisine from England, food becoming more industrialized during the French Revolution, and etc but no sources actually saying that American cuisine was influenced by its history. --Mr. Guye (talk) 21:55, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

That's a rather nitpicky way of looking at it. The fact of the matter is that's America as a nation was built on the backs of immigrants and has experienced no less than three great waves of immigration, two major ones from Europe and Africa, and the most recent one from Asia and Latin America. That would be general knowledge well known to the greater world. It does not require explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadowkittie5460 (talk • contribs) 13:28, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Citation verifications
The section for Mid-Atlantic includes a paragraph that seems mostly "point of view (POV) and not verified by the citations made therein. It reads as follows:


 * New York City is internationally known for its extremely diverse and cosmopolitan dining scene and possesses the entire world spectrum of dining options within its city limits, rivaled only by Los Angeles for its pre-eminence in the US restaurant scene. Some of the most exclusive and prestigious restaurants and nightclubs in America are headquartered here[47][not in citation given] and compete fiercely for good reviews in the Food and Dining section of The New York Times, online guides like Yelp, and in Zagat's, the last of which is the premier American dining guide, published yearly and headquartered in New York City.[48][not in citation given] Many of the more complicated dishes with rich ingredients like Lobster Newberg, waldorf salad, vichyssoise, eggs benedict and the New York strip steak were born out of a need to entertain and impress the well to do in expensive bygone restaurants like Delmonico's and still standing establishments like the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel, and today that tradition remains alive as some of the most expensive and exclusive restaurants in the country are found in this region.


 * • The first citation from New York CBS Local makes no comparison of New York and Los Angeles. In fact, Los Angeles is not mentioned in the article, whatsoever. Ca.papavero (talk) 18:54, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * • The second citation simply points to the Zagat.com website' welcoming homepage, not to a specific article. It makes no reference and claims, such as to "compete fiercely for good reviews in the Food and Dining section of The New York Times, online guides like Yelp, and in Zagat's…" etc.  This is all implied, not a complete reference. Ca.papavero (talk) 18:54, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * • The rest of the paragraph is not mentioned in either of the above said sources; whereas this Wikipedia article continues to say "Many of the more complicated dishes with rich ingredients like Lobster Newberg, waldorf salad, vichyssoise, eggs benedict and the New York strip steak were born out of a need to entertain and impress the well to do in expensive bygone restaurants like Delmonico's and still standing establishments like the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel, and today that tradition remains alive as some of the most expensive and exclusive restaurants in the country are found in this region." That's all been interpreted and added by the original editor with seeming POV, although maybe partly true, it's further unsubstantiated. Ca.papavero (talk) 18:54, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

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Cultural history of American food & its relation to class/gender/national identity, may be of interest:
A Taste of Power: Food and American Identities by Katharina Vester, 2015, University of California Press Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 01:10, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

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