Talk:American rotation

Deletion of the article
I have already been deleted once as American Rotation Billiards (pool), and what followed was this conversation with the person who removed it: I have copied his comments from his talk page.

You deleted my page as obviously invented - incorrect. I have no association with the invention or the creation of the game and/or the creator himself or any monetary interest. I play it. I put a lot of work into that today, while simultaneously learning Wiki Markup language. In reference to notability, the #1 Pool player in the World recently stated that it's the greatest pool game he has ever played. It was modified from Rotation (which has a page) a little more than two years ago, and has already increased exponentially in popularity. It even has a National Championship Series. Like I said, the best current players in the world love the game. When there's a sport you love, you'd like to create a Wiki Page - that's what I did. (Eengner (talk) 21:16, 19 September 2014 (UTC))


 * You fail my simple minded COI test - you have no contribs history. But I am in mellow mood and "made up" was definitely an invalid reason for delerion. I suggest you provide better, independent evidence of notability and re-submit via articles for creation. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 09:02, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reconsideration, I would like my text back so I do not have to start over. I have provided a few notes below: As for my lack of pages and edits, I was unable to use my regular login - i'm guessing it might have timed out. I certainly know that it was registered with an email address from my previous job that I no longer have access to. I just created a new one user talk:eengner. Although I admit, I've never tried to create a page before - it was quite exciting, at least until the "process" ran over me. I really would appreciate my wiki markup back. (Eengner (talk) 16:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC))

Notability and other problems likely resolvable
There is obviously some WP:Conflict of interest going on here, but I suspect that this article can be saved. At very least, it should go to WP:Articles for deletion (under WP:Notability grounds) before removing it again. It looks to me on first glance and some cleanup work that some source digging in typical US billiards sources is likely to demonstrate (even if just barely) that the game and its tournament series are collectively notable. We have too few, not too many, articles on current, real-world cue sports events outside the world level in snooker and nine-ball. I'm as "aggressive" as anyone in seeking deletion of crap articles that fail "Wikipedia is not for things made up one day", but I don't think this really qualified. Six months ago it would have, but they've managed to pull off a national tournament, (technically, marginally, international since it permitted Canadians, too), albeit one hosted as a sideline event at a larger national eight-ball tournament, the BCAPL Nationals. That said, really, really needs to stop editing this and any other page (e.g. Rotation (pool) in a promotional manner.  Many of this person's edits transgress WP:Neutral point of view and WP:Verifiability policies.  The article badly needs reliable sources  of the subject.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all of your input and hard work. I definitely understand what you are saying about "promotional" writing.  I'm working on the notability information.  AR is now holding National Championships that are piggybacking on large, established billiards tournaments.  This is a notable event and difficult to achieve, but I am not sure how to help translate that into official "Notability"(Eengner (talk) 15:50, 29 September 2014 (UTC))
 * Even one neutral article talking about it non-trivially (i.e., not just a calendar mention), e.g. in Billiards Digest or Pool & Billiard Magazine, without any promotional or other business connection, would do it.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:25, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Restoration of the article
It has been deleted now, and the admin has apologized for deleting it for the wrong reason. It is being resubmitted after I get my wiki markup back (I should have saved it locally). It was actually coming together quite nicely (after you noticed it), but before it was deleted. I have no COI or vested interest with the games creator. The game has now spread across two continents and has Regional qualifiers and National Championships. It is highly regarded as the best new thing in billiards in decades and it is supported and played by Top Professionals in our sport, and streamed live by AZBilliards, which is the recognized authority in Live Billiard Event online streaming. (Eengner (talk) 16:39, 20 September 2014 (UTC)) (Eengner (talk) 19:48, 20 September 2014 (UTC))


 * The page is back up :), please give us a few days to start having people add information. I have about 15 people who are headed to access the page and contribute. (Eengner (talk) 20:09, 20 September 2014 (UTC))


 * Please be aware that canvassing people off-Wikipedia to come here and support your promotional content is not permitted; we call it "meatpuppetry". It's even more of a WP:Conflict of interest problem to have 15 people with a conflict of interest editing this material as one such person. Your excessively promotional approach, with unverifiable, self-aggrandizing claims like "the best new thing in billiards in decades" is very likely to get this article deleted permanently if you don't stop.  Please read the core policies I've linked to above, and if you insist on continuing to write this article yourself, do it very carefully.  I would instead recommend posting here on the talk page what you think should be covered, and let experienced encyclopedic editors improve the article within Wikipedia's content policy requirements.  It takes time and experience to learn to write here about commercial subjects in a way that will "stick" and not trigger "delete this spam!" responses from all other editors.  I can help with that, and you can request additional help at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cue sports, a project you may wish to become an active participant in, and work on other billiards articles in a non-promotional way to decrease the perception that you're a single-purpose account who is only here to promote your business interests. There's no evidence that this has "spread across two continents"; ABC's own site shows that it's only being regularly played in the US East Coast and South, and some minor activity in Canada. That's less than one continent.  Also, AZBilliards, while regarded as a generally reliable source by WP:WikiProject Cue sports, when it sticks to factual reporting, has a business interest of its own – its streaming video sideline – directly implicated here, so it may not qualify as a reliable source for purposes of establishing the game's encyclopedic encyclopedic notability.  We need more sources.  Has it been covered in Billiards Digest and similar publications?  Has any major newspaper written an article about it?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Added to Rotation (pool)
The Wiki page Rotation (pool) now has a reference that links to American Rotation (pool). (Eengner (talk) 19:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC))
 * I've had to tone that down, a lot. You cannot use Wikipedia articles as a vehicle for blatant promotion; wording like " and attracts the nation’s top amateurs as well as professional pool players" is not encyclopedic and violates WP:Neutral point of view policy.  Wikipedia is not a Web index, and you can't place what amounts to classified advertisements here.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I did not get that link re-written quick enough. Thanks for your assistance. I will be more diligent about fact based writing. (Eengner (talk) 15:53, 29 September 2014 (UTC))

Claims about Reyes and Van Boening
I can't find any source at all for claims that Efren Reyes and Shane Van Boening compete in this game and are world champions at it, so I've had to remove that claim from both this article and the related section at Rotation (pool). Both Reyes and Van Boening play mainstream rotation (61), but there's no source that they compete in "AR" or have endorsed it. Even if they have endorsed it, that isn't encyclopedic at all, since such endorsements are almost always paid. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
 * One of the cited sources says Reyes played a few games of it at some pool hall, but that's just WP:TRIVIA.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  09:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Update on attempts to reliably source this article
AZBilliards is this case isn't necessarily a reliable source, but a streaming business partner. Same goes, it turns out, for both NYC Grind and InsidePool. This unfortunately eliminates three of the main independent billiards press sources as being independent enough of this subject to establish notability and to be reliable for anything controversial about the subject. NYC Grind, for example, has published three things about "AmRo", two of which were written by its inventor and tour co-owner, and the third a press release about NYC Grind teaming up with InsidePool to video-stream some national matches via InsidePool.tv. That's the furthest thing from independent sourcing. They're not bad sources for what they source (basic facts about matches), but they don't help demonstrate that the game (or its championship event, or the division of Cue Sport Intl. behind them, are notable, so the article might still be taken to WP:Articles for deletion.

I checked OnTheBreakNews.com (publishers of the regional Rack 'Em, The Break and The Stroke magazines), but their internal search engine produces no hits, not even promotional material.

American Poolplayer won't cover this at all, I'd bet (it's the house organ of a competing league, the APA).

I'm not sure that leaves any other "likely suspects" besides Billiards Digest and Pool & Billiard Magazine. I'm out of time for this, so someone else is going to have to look. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  12:05, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Revisit notability
Ok, this seems like it was a clear flash in the pan pushed by one promoter which got five minutes of notice in the billiards press only to fade away almost immediately. Even the primary source websites are all dead. I think, looking at the overall picture, that this really lacks significant long-term impact to warrant a separate article and not just a mention as a minor variant at Rotation (pool). While notability is not temporary, the clear COI behind the article's creation and the lack of any sustained mention beyond a couple of brief mentions makes me think this was never really notable and the COI was using Wikipedia as part of a concerted promotional push for something non-notable. oknazevad (talk) 06:28, 27 December 2020 (UTC)