Talk:Amidah

Problem with Amidah Page in Firefox
I'm not sure what's going on (I'm not too much of a technical guy) but I cannot view the main Amidah page in Firefox, but it opens fine in Internet Explorer 6. When I try in Firefox I get a page with what looks like the code for the donation box for Wikipedia. I can open other Wikipedia pages fine with Firefox. Hopefully someone smarter than myself can help with this.Tovias 21:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Rain in the Second Benediction
The first three benedictions are not benedictions of supplication but of praise, and, therefore, nothing is asked for...God's acts and powers, past, present, and future, are only recognized. The line in question is "Mashiv Haruach, UMorid HaGeshem", which is a statement of fact...not a request or an imperative, grammatically speaking.


 * I have added some comments to this effect in the section on rain, and added hyperlinks from the second (and ninth) benedictions to this section. If anyone can help me with the missing references I would be most grateful.  Thank you.  StevenJ81 (talk) 15:29, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Redundancy
I have done some heavy editing of parts of this article because it has many redundancies, and I feel it could use some more detail (though it has a lot already, nice job fellow editors!). Feel free to review my edits, I think most are agreeable. Rafi Neal 21:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for clogging up the history page. I will now do my edits on a separate word processor for this article and then copy them in. There's still some work left to be done... &mdash;Rafi Neal | T / C 04:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Paragraph for deletion
I took out the following paragraph from the history section:
 * While the Mishnah seems to have known the general content and sequence of the benedictions, much latitude prevailed as regards personal deviations in phraseology, at all events; so that men's learning or the reverse could be judged by the manner in which they worded the benedictions.

The only fact here not mentioned in the section is that men were judged by their prayers, which is not referenced. If someone wants to put this back, please make the point more clear and cite the source (I think it's referring to the Talmud's praise of Shmuel HaKatan, but that example poorly supports the claim brought here).

This entire section needs copy-editing, but I can't do it without completely rewriting it since I don't agree with its "modern scholarship" POV. I agree with many of the facts, but not the style of approach to the classical texts. To call the Mishnah "sporadic" and not "definite" or "coherent" is to misunderstand the Mishnah's purpose. The section's tone implies that the Tannaim and Amoraim practiced a primitive form of Judaism, chas vechalilah. Yes, this section needs work. &mdash;Rafi Neal | T / C 02:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This appears to be material from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, which can be very opinionated at times. I agree this comment about the Mishnah doesn't belong in this article (it may belong in the Mishnah article.) In general I believe that dropping parenthetical comments into articles about completely different topics is almost always a WP:NPOV violation because these comments can't be dealt with in any sort of neutral way without creating a complicated detour that takes the article off-subject. Best, --Shirahadasha 18:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your work so far. The POV still disgusts me in parts you haven't touched yet. I'll take the liberty to neutralize it as soon as I have the time, probably next week. &mdash;Rafi Neal | T / C 03:11, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Bowing in the Amida
I added a paragraph to the section on bowing in the Amida.

During certain parts of the Amidah said on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, Ashkenazi Jews traditionally go down to the floor upon their knees and make his upper body bowed over like an arch, similar to Muslims, though not exactly in the same manner. There are some variations in Ashkenazi customs as to how long one remains in this position. Some Jews among the Dor Daim and Talmidhe haRambam understand both the Mishneh Torah and the Talmudic source texts concerning bowing in the Shemoneh Esreh to be teaching that one must always bow down upon his knees, not only during the High Holy Days, but throughout the year. It is hard to know the percentage of those who hold by the latter view, the likelihood being that most who accept such a view usually only do so in private or when praying among likeminded people.

Some references concerning Ashkenazi practice:  See the popular book To Pray as a Jew by Hayim Halevy Donin or Rite and Reason on pages 528 & 529

Concerning Yemenites (specifically - Dor Daim) -- On page 34 side bet of Tractate Berakhoth p. 705 in the translation of the Talmud known as "THE TALMUD" WITH ENGLISH TRANSLATION AND COMMENTARY commentary to this chapter by Rabbi Dr. A. Carlebach, Editor: Rabbi Dr. A. Zvi Ehrman of Fellow Jews' College, London; Member of the ISRAEL BAR, and published by EL-'AM-HOZA'A LEOR ISRAEL Jerusalem - Tel Aviv 5742 - 1982 Peli Printing Works LTD, Ramat Gan - Givatayim, it states:

"The third [type of bow mentioned in this part of the Gemara is] (hishtahawa'a),...total bodily prostration;... (Tahhanunim; cf. Meg., ibid, B.M. 59B; El-Am Hazzahav, p. 184). YEMENITE JEWS STILL PRESERVE THE CUSTOM."

"they fall on their faces, after the Prayer (Amida), stretching out their arms and leggs, like the custom of Ashkenazim on Yom Kippur," (translation mine from page 68 in Even Sepir)

These first two references only concern prostration during tachanun, the part of prayer immediately after the Amidah. This practice was widespread among all Yemenite Jews, not only among Dor Daim, only 100 years ago. I'm eye witness to the fact that some older Yemenites still do this privately as well as some younger zealous ones. The kneeling upon the floor during regular Amidah is a known issue among Talmidhe haRambam and some Dor Daim. Neither of these groups are very well known, and are only recently become less fearful of social pressures -- as a whole.

In the book HaMaspeek l'Ovdei HaShem by Rav Avraham son of Rambam, there are over 100 pages on the practice and significance of prostration and kneeling to the ground during the Amidah. It could be that this is part of the reason for this books lack of popularity.

THE TALMUD" WITH ENGLISH TRANSLATION AND COMMENTARY commentary to this chapter by Rabbi Dr. A. Carlebach, Editor: Rabbi Dr. A. Zvi Ehrman of Fellow Jews' College, London; Member of the ISRAEL BAR, and published by EL-'AM-HOZA'A LEOR ISRAEL Jerusalem - Tel Aviv 5742 - 1982 Peli Printing Works LTD, Ramat Gan - Givatayim, it states, in addition to Yemenites preserving prostration during Tachanun, that it is clear (regardless of whether one agrees with this particular commentary) that the bowing intended by the Talmudic compiler to be done during the Amidah was bowing upon the floor. Then it provides some source, a particular Jewish historian, who suggested that this fell out of popularity among the Jewish people due to the Christian practice of kneeling. (no need to mention Muslim practice).  I'll try to provide the exact page and quote next time, b'azarth HaShem.

Omedyashar 13:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Found the information I was looking for:

The following commentary, concerning the Talmudic basis for the above halakha in the Mishneh Torah, is from "THE TALMUD" with English Translation and Commentary; Tractate Berakhoth (v en 'omedin) - commentary to this chapter by Rabbi Dr. A. Carlebach;  Published by EL - 'AM - HOZA'A LEOR ISRAEL, Jerusalem - Tel Aviv 5742 - 1982 , commentary on page 34 b  of Tractate Berakhoth on p. 705 of the publication: The second, keri'a, [kaf-resh-yud-ayin-heh], bending the knee, the Baraitha says, means veritable kneeling, as Solomon's prayer makes plain. In fact, however, nowadays one only bends the knee - except for Alenu during Musaph on New Year and the Day of Atonement at 'but we kneel and prostrate and give thanks..' and during what is called the 'avoda in the Musaph of the Day of Atonement... Reader and often the whole congregation then re-enact the ancient ceremony (see Rema to Sh. A., O.H. 621, 4) A one possible explanation to how or why the practice of actual kneeling during the Amidah prayer ceased as a common practice throughout the year as opposed to the practice observed in modern times of only doing so during the Jewish New Year and the Day of Atonment, is found on page 704 of the same commentary: Ginzberg (ibid., p.181 ff.) suggests that the dislike of an excess of bowings and so on stemmed from an aversion to Christian practice.

Picture of diagram of Jew prostrating on Islamic website taken from "To pray as a Jew : a guide to the prayer book and the synagogue service" by Hayim Halevy Donin  Paging xxii, 384 p. : ill. ; 25 cm

Omedyashar 13:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I am wondering if it might be useful to start an article on something like Prostration in Judaism giving the history of the custom and its surviving practice. It sounds like there's a lot of detail here that might possibly better be in a separate article than the Amidah article. Best, --Shirahadasha 16:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

You're right. There is a lot of detail to deal with here, enough for its own article. I just wish I had enough time and access to the internet to do so... but I don't currently. I have posted a bit of information with references on the discussion board of the article on Tachanun... but it has remained untouched and unanswered for many many months. I think that this topic touches on a practice important enough to be dealt with and further informed about... as many Jews "do" 'nafilath apayim' every day, while knowing almost nothing of its history or original form. I had added information about its history and original form of 'nafilath apayim' on the tachanun article, without touching the sections regarding how most religious Jews do tachanun in modern times... non-the-less what I wrote was deleted more than once, eventhough I had provided MANY more references than are provided for the article as it is at the moment. Anywayz... hopefully I'll find time to do this. Thanks for your recommendation. All the best to you as well. Shabboth shalom. Omedyashar 12:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm wondering about the opening sentence in the section on bowing. It states, "The worshipper bows at four points in the Amidah:" But then only lists three that I can tell, "at the beginning and end of both the first blessing of Avot and the second to last blessing of Hoda'ah." This could be confusing to someone coming here to learn about the process and what's going on. Tovias (talk) 13:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What is the source for the din that six are needed to respond to the repetition? The Shulchan Aruch says that nine should say "Amen". I understand that there may be a leniancy but I don't know the source. 99.239.200.154 (talk) 23:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/BibleStudyAndTheology/jewishroots/Amidah_Prayer_Bivin.aspx. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Unforgettableid (talk) 03:37, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Amidah was made by Christians in Medeival for Jews
There are several Christian insertions into Jewish prayer and modern Jews are praying now with Jesus's name three times a day every day.Evrey9 (talk) 10:25, 12 December 2019 (UTC)


 * In all seriousness, why did you post this here? Do you a) think a Talk page is a brainstorming session for your own independent thoughts, and b) that a Talk page is a proper place to proselytize?  NewkirkPlaza (talk) 06:04, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Blessing 14
Luke 1.68-79 - "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace".

Amidah's blessing 14 - "Return in mercy to Jerusalem Your city and dwell therein as You have promised; speedily establish therein the throne of David Your servant, and rebuild it, soon in our days, as an everlasting edifice. Blessed are You Lord, who rebuilds Jerusalem. Speedily cause the scion of David Your servant to flourish, and raise up an horn of salvation, for we hope for Your salvation all day. Blessed are You Lord, who raises an horn of salvation to flourish".

"Salvation" (Hebrew "Yeshua") was mentioned three times as in Luke Gospel as in Amidah's blessing 14.Evrey9 (talk) 10:13, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Blessing 2
Albertus Magnus interpreted the name "Jesus" as acrostic:


 * Jucunditas maerentium
 * Eternitas viventium ("resurrects the dead with great mercy")
 * Sanitas languentium ("heals the sick")
 * Ubertas egentium
 * Satietas esurentium ("He sustains the living with loving kindness")

Rabbis inserted Jesus's name into the 2nd blessing of Amidah's:

"He sustains the living with loving kindness, resurrects the dead with great mercy, supports the falling, heals the sick, releases the bound, and fulfills His trust to those who sleep in the dust".

Cairo geniza Amidah does not have that Jesus's acrostic. That means that Jesus's acrostic was invented by Christians just after Cairo geniza (medieval Crusades) and rabbis accepted it. Today Jews are praying with Jesus's name three times a day every day.Evrey9 (talk) 10:12, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Blessing 18
John Gospel 11.41 "Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me". That is Eucharist practice of Christianity what Judaism adopted.

Amidah's blessing 18: "We will give thanks to You and recount Your praise, evening, morning and noon".Evrey9 (talk) 10:20, 12 December 2019 (UTC)


 * oooooooooookay. NewkirkPlaza (talk) 02:33, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

notability
You can't use the Bible as a reference to itself. If the only source you have on the inclusion of verses from a holy book is the holy book itself, then it’s not notable for Wikipedia purposes. I appreciate the work that folks have done on this page, but please add actual secondary sources. NewkirkPlaza (talk) 06:11, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Amidah
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Amidah's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "je": From Hosea:  From Isaiah Horowitz: Jewish Encyclopedia bibliography:• Conforte, Ḳore ha-Dorot, p. 47b;

• Azulai, Shem ha-Gedolim;

• Steinschneider, Cat. Bodl.;

• Landshuth, ' Ammude ha-'Abodah, pp. 133-134, Berlin, 1862;

• Frumkin, Eben Shemuel, pp. 111-122, Jerusalem and Wilna, 1874;

• Horovitz, Frankfurter Rabbinen, i. 41-44, 58-60 (in which Horowitz's contract with the Frankfort congregation is reproduced);

• Pesis, ' Aṭeret ha-Lewiyim, Warsaw, 1902.</li> <li>From Rachel: "Rachel" at http://jewishencyclopedia.com</li> <li>From Simeon HaPakoli: Jewish Encyclopedia: Simeon Ha-Pakoli</li> <li>From Pirkei De-Rabbi Eliezer: Jewish Encyclopedia, Pirke De-Rabbi Eliezer</li> </ul>

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 01:50, 1 February 2023 (UTC)