Talk:Amrullah Saleh

Frontline appearance
The Tuesday, Jan. 18th, 2011 episode of Frontline was split into three segments. The third section featured Amrullah Saleh. The segment is called "The Spy Who Quit". http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/2011/01/video-amrullah-saleh-spy-who-quit.html I'll add this to the article. LP-mn (talk) 03:50, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Informal assessment
I have been asked by JCAla on how this article might be improved to meet GA standards.


 * 1) Prose: The article is not quite up to the "reasonably well written" standard. Needs a good copy-edit to improve spelling, grammar, word choice.  This needs to be done by a third-party with an excellent command of written English.
 * 2) Sourcing: generally looks good, although I didn't examine everything. Works and publishers should be added to news sources, especially official you tube channels of broadcasters. There are two dead links  The blogspot  is not a reliable source
 * 3) Content: There is a big gap between 2004 and his resignation in 2010. What did he do whilst in office?  The bulk of the article covers just a year and a half of his life. This is by no means broad coverage.
 * 4) Neutrality:Appears reasonably neutral, but perhaps some sourced material on Karzai's POV about the subject could be introduced. But be careful with this.
 * 5) Stability: Appears to be stable.
 * 6) Images: Appear to be correctly licensed and captioned.

If you want further feedback on this article, I suggest that you take it to peer review. Jezhotwells (talk) 13:48, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Transclude
How do I have the review page automatically transclude to this talk page? Darkness Shines (talk) 14:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

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Exile
Hello! There is a bunch of footage and pictures (for example: https://twitter.com/sudhirchaudhary/status/1427328094461849602?s=21) showing that Amrullah Saleh is in Panjshir fighting with Ahmed Masood, instead of fleeing with ex-president Ghani. Does that still count as exile? 205.201.21.212 (talk) 00:34, 17 August 2021 (UTC) And there is a video and pictures of same helicopter flying over Kabul - I saw it on some network news and wondered who is flying on Mi-17 in this moment in Kabul Loesorion (talk) 15:11, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Confirmed as new president
As per 2004 Constitution of Afghanistan it is confirmed that Amrullah Saleh is new president. https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-58219963


 * It seems to me that sources conflict as to whether Ahraf Ghani has resigned. This probably isn't the place for such discussions, but in the 2004 Afghani constitution, I can see that the First Vice President assumes the authorities and duties of the President if they resign, are impeached, die or have an incurable illness that impends their performance of duty, but "[i]n the absence of the President, the duties of the First Vice-President shall be determined by the President". This says to me that the President must devolve their powers to the First Vice President if they are absent and that the First Vice President doesn't automatically assume the presidency or the presidency's authorities or duties if the President is absent. I also can't see any reference to escape in the constitution. The only other reference to presidential absence in the constitution reads: "[i]n case of absence, resignation or death of the President, the first Vice-President shall act in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution", which doesn't really clear anything up. Now there might be translation issues at hand here, this comment is no reliable source and Ghani might have resigned (which would render any discussion about absence mute), but it might be worth seeing over the next couple of days whether any reliable sources dispute Ammurllah Saleh's claim that, under the constitution, he is caretaker President. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 15:54, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Constitution articles related here for this matter is first and foremost article 60:
 * "In case of absence, resignation or death of the President, the first Vice-President shall act in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution. In the absence of the first Vice-President, the second Vice-President shall act in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution."
 * It clearly says in case of absence who is in charge - escaped or fled or simply not in country does not meter absence is absence it does not meter in which way he is absent.
 * Articles regarding presidency is here
 * https://president.gov.af/en/constitutional-authority/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=pmd_2b2d0f2908044821bed7d9022146045694d5f5d2-1629217137-0-gqNtZGzNAfijcnBszQg6
 * You are citing latter article 67:"In case of resignation, impeachment or death of the President, as well as an incurable illness impeding performance of duty, the First Vice-President shall assume authorities and duties of the President. " then Vice President acts as interim President. And in ::same article 67 "In the absence of the President, the duties of the First Vice-President shall be determined by the President. " obviously means that current president before he was absent can determine duties of first Vice President. And yes there is translations issues from Afghan Persian to English because it is legal matter but important parts are very clear and give as who is next in line to be in charge in case of absent president. Loesorion (talk) 17:29, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply! I'm not sure that I agree with your interpretation of section 60 though: "...act in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution", to me, means act in accordance with the articles of the constitution, particularly article 67, not that the First Vice President gains the President's constitutional functions if they are absent; that would seem a very generous reading of the section. This would raise the question as to why section 60 was included in the constitution at all, but perhaps it was just to demonstrate that nothing changes rule of law-style if the President is absent.
 * In my view, section 67 is the only relevant section for our purposes. Therefore, I would differ from your interpretation that section 67 is just one way that the First Vice President can gain the President's duties, to that it is the only way that the First Vice President can gain the President's duties. It's an interesting discussion to have though! (But, of course, for the purposes of Wikipedia it is mute as a constitution is a primary source that we shouldn't really use.) FollowTheTortoise (talk) 17:59, 17 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The reliable sources currently in use on this page assert that Amurllah Saleh claims to be caretaker president. They don't say that he is president and they don't say that he is caretaker president. Therefore, in the absence of any reliable sources to the contrary, this is what the article should reflect. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 16:53, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Further to this, the reliable sources do not explictly state that Saleh took office today. In fact, if he assumed office when Ghani fled the country, shouldn't he have taken office on 15 August 2021? I have edited the infobox to simply read "August 2021" to reflect this. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 18:23, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Audio statement by Amurllah Saleh given to BBC News https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-58219963 confirming former president fled country and he is now taking the role of president as per Afghan constitution. Loesorion (talk) 19:11, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Request for Page Protection
This page may need protection due to a content dispute.--173.29.187.80 (talk) 17:14, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Protection requests should be made at WP:RFPP. Glancing at the article quickly, I see no obvious reason to protect it.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that it needs protection. I have made a request here. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 18:34, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The article has now been protected, I believe to require autoconfirmed or confirmed editors. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 18:47, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Sister Mariam
This Wikipedia article states that Amrullah Saleh had a sister who was "tortured to death" by the Taliban, using this France24 article as the source. Said source does not say that Amrullah's sister was tortured to death, but instead refers to a 2020 Time magazine op-ed written by Amrullah himself, in which he states that his sister Mariam was captured and tortured by the Taliban in 1996, but she escaped with her daughters and did not die until 2016. So it appears that Amrullah's sister was indeed tortured by the Taliban, but not "to death" as the Wikipedia article states.

Saleh's tweets as sources for Saleh's tweeting
User:Maurice Oly is persistently removing links to Saleh's presidential tweets from the citations for Saleh's presidential tweeting, citing WP:UGC. WP:UGC states that user-generated content, such as tweets, are generally not reliable sources. However, it specifically carves out an exception for when the user-generated content in question is being used as a source for itself, something which citing Saleh's tweets in the context of a discussion of those same tweets is a clear-cut example of. Basically, Maurice Oly seems to be trying to assert that the existence of Saleh's tweets is not reliable evidence of the existence of Saleh's tweets!

Can we resolve this somehow? Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧ Averted crashes 19:42, 19 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi, I found you removed Time magazine source in #Early years, I readded it. Only this source mentioned his elder sister's more detailed situation, you may check it. @Whoop whoop pull up Kethyga (talk) 20:11, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Amrullah Saleh is new president as per constitution
Amrullah Saleh is a new president as stipulated by afghan constitution in two articles. First in Article 60

"In case of absence, resignation or death of the President, the first Vice-President shall act in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution. "

Former president Arfan Ghani is absent from his duty as he fled his post of President of Afghanistan. CNN In his own statement he confirms he did not want to stay anymore as president of Afghanistan: "if I had stayed the President of Afghanistan"

There is also sources claiming his resignation Hindustan Times

Then as stipulated by Afghan constitution Article 67 "In case of resignation, impeachment or death of the President, as well as an incurable illness impeding performance of duty, the First Vice-President shall assume authorities and duties of the President. "

In all above cases Afghan constitution clearly says in quoted parts that First vice president will replace president.

This article already confirms that Amrullah Saleh is acting president, he cannot become acting president if there is no legal path for that, as Afghan constitution has predicted situation that president can be absent or resigns it also gave solution for that situation in which vice president takes role of president.

Numerous other sources confirm Amrullah Saleh is per constitution president. Constitution clearly as source provides us with information in two articles 60 and 67 that it is possible under such circumstances that First Vice President replaces President. It is not possible in other means besides following constitution for vice president to became president. Using Afghan constitution as best source in this case that is even supported by secondary sources in this case is within Wikipedia policies as it is used with care and there is no interpretation of what is already written in constitution as it clearly states when how and who is going to be a president. Loesorion (talk) 12:15, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
 * , you have not provided reliable, secondary sources saying he is the president, unqualified. The available sources say he has claimed or self-declared the office of acting president . For the last time, we CANNOT cite the Constitution and make that interpretation ourselves. That is a gross misuse of a WP:PRIMARY source and is WP:OR. Simply citing secondary sources for the existence of the Constitution does not make your use of it to do your own analysis any more acceptable. If it did, the WP:PRIMARY policy would be effectively meaningless. This has been explained to you repeatedly at Talk:Ashraf_Ghani and I will not futher rehash it here. If you continue to push this, you will face sanctions. ―  Tartan357  Talk 01:31, 24 August 2021 (UTC)


 * For last time I have not interpreted constitution, I have not done my analysis of constitution, I explained why I am using it as source, I quoted relevant parts here in Talk page - again as in other pages where I have discussed same matter without any interpretation. It is simple and understandable sentences. If you have problem in understanding quoted sentences that represent legal matters that is related to this article that is not up to me. You are seems to me pursuing here personal view and do not allow sources that contain related matter to be used as I not only used primary source but with two secondary together. Afghan constitution is relevant source in this matter while in same time is primary. If constitution does not allow for vice president to become president should we not then use such constitution as source to contradicts such situation - this is not a case here but given your posture to use of primary source with care I must ask? And if primary sources is not good why you delete secondary sources?

Source that confirms role of Vice Presidents - chapter 3.3 per Afghan constitution. https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/555b270d4.pdf from where I will quote - again:"The first VP is identified as the direct successor of the President.9"

Again numerous other sources are calling him acting president.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/taliban-abducting-children-elderly-in-andarab-valley-amrullah-saleh-101629777731755.html

"Afghanistan's acting president Amrullah Saleh has said amid reports of clashes between the fighters of the hardline Islamist group and resistance forces"

And they do not tell in source that he claimed or self-declared while in same time that is irrelevant because constitution allows him to become president.

He cannot be called in any form president if that is not possible per constitution regardless claimed, self declared or other words to describe what happened.

And do not harass me for editing with supported sources this and other articles and constantly threatening me with sanctions. I adhere with care per Wikipedia policies - you User:Tartan357 only use parts of Wikipedia policies you like and constantly misuse WP:PRIMARY to your own standards and insists on use of policies only in part you like as you have proven in other articles where you add without any supporting sources some claims. If you need help to understand I will gladly help, best regards. Loesorion (talk) 18:58, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

There is currently a dispute about could Amrullah Saleh become president as successor of former president per Afghan constitution and what sources could be used to prove that. It regards important note that in article should be to described how Amrullah Saleh obtained his highest public function. What sources for such edit exists and how they could be used?

Could we add in article - "under Afghanistan constitution article 60 Vice President can become president in case when president is absent as he is direct successor"

with support of primary and other secondary source regarding constitution

or simply add he is

"president per Afghanistan constitution"

as it is supported by many sources or both as one part is regarding ways of succession and other is actual state. Is constitution reliable as a primary source when used with care and backed by secondary sources that confirm that it is used with care - is it good for editing when it comes to legal matters that should be very strict in this case to describe succession possibility.

I am trying to improve article to add statement that it is possible for vice president of Afghanistan to become president according to constitution including maybe some legal quotes or statement about succession.

Primary source - Afghan constitution - is at my opinion here in this situation best available source in terms of reliability about succession while one secondary source exists that confirms that First Vice President of Afghanistan becomes President under constitution Loesorion (talk) 19:34, 24 August 2021 (UTC)


 * (Invited by the bot) To start with, the lead should be a summary of what is in the body of the article. That said. My second thought is that anything in this unclear question should be said with attribution, nothing as fact in the voice of Wikipedia.  My third thought is that even with attribution to their constitution, it's a big overreach & issue for a wiki editor to be deriving such a statement from a primary source.  Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:43, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * what is your brief and neutral statement? At over 2,600 bytes, the statement above (from the tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for  to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at Requests for comment/Biographies. The RfC may also not be publicised through WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 21:20, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I would reinforce that this isn't really structured as an RFC needs to be. It's more like a general discussion and I participated as such. North8000 (talk) 23:15, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Edits like don't help the problem. The RfC statement has barely changed in size; it is presently 2,289 bytes, which is still much too long. If you cannot address the issue, I shall pull the  tag. Normal discussion may continue, just not as a formal WP:RFC. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:58, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand your point but how much brief is not exactly defined in bytes, words or letters for rfc - then I would know exact requirement. But I shortened it again per advice. To me seems to brief to some of you is probably to long. I do not see other way then to edit it to get it smaller. As it covers just one topic in article that in end would be said within article in one sentence or few words I do not se it as general discussion. Now it is about 1500 bytes is that short enough? Loesorion (talk) 19:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Brevity isn't expressed in bytes (or any other unit) because there is no fixed limit - it is known that an RfC statement of about 1500 bytes usually succeeds in being processed, and one of 2500 bytes always fails. The limit is in the vicinity of 1900 to 2000 bytes (it's never been quantified exactly), but we don't want to give people the impression that they may expand a statement up to this length when a shorter one will convey the meaning. In other words, succinctness is what we desire, not a wall of text; this is the intent of WP:RFCST point 3 and the spirit of WP:RFCBRIEF. Anyway, it's shown properly at WP:RFC/BIO now, so thanks for shortening it. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 09:35, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
 * (Invited by the bot) To start, I don't believe the constitution clearly state the Vice-President becomes President under these circumstances; I wouldn't be surprised if that is the end result, but at the same time I suspect that this will be more akin to Tyler than Truman. However, even if it was clear I would oppose using primary sources to assert it, as what is clear to us may be less clear in the official Pashto version, or less clear when read in context; legal matters are typically too complicated for us to use primary sources for. BilledMammal (talk) 22:00, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

BilledMammal can you describe circumstances you are addressing, or give a thought about is former president of Afghanistan absent from Afghanistan, did he not say:"if I had stayed the President of Afghanistan"? About using constitution as primary source what do you think for example does US people know what is in 1st or 2nd amendment of their constitution, do ordinary people quote, cite and call for their right within constitution of US? While constitution is legal "stuff" it is always written so any ordinary people could understand it and use it as it is supreme or principal document made for ordinary people of any country. You can for example pin a law or part of a law and ask is it within constitution but you cannot pin constitution against law and ask is constitution within law. So there is no interpretation of constitutions against laws but otherwise is possible. And as nobody is in position to interpret constitution but just to comment or conclude or quote what is written and eventually tell how it feels about it. I adhere here that it is possible to use it as source specially as it is written as principal common act for all people to understand it not just for some specialists.

Afghan(as many others) constitution starts "We the people of Afghanistan" not "We the layers of Afghanistan" or "We the judge's of Afghanistan" or "We people that specialized in legal matters". It is written by people for people so nobody can say people could not understand it.

While there is not much secondary sources that deals with 2004 Afghan constitution as I said previously in parts of legal succession of president I have given one https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/555b270d4.pdf that says in chapter 3.3 "The first VP is identified as the direct successor of the President.9" and I will now give few more https://www.zaoerv.de/64_2004/64_2004_4_a_897_916.pdf from German "Max-Planck-Institut für ausländisches öffentliches Recht und Völkerrecht" that in page 904 tells: "As in the US, the function of the first Vice President is merely to act as a stand-in for the President in case of his impeachment, resignation, death or a serious illness that could hinder the performance of his duties (Article 67)." https://www.nyulawglobal.org/globalex/Afghanistan1.html "Article sixty of the 2004 Afghan constitution provides that, in case of absence, resignation or death of the President, the first Vice-President shall act in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution. In the absence of the first Vice-President, the second Vice-President shall act in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution" https://www.understandingwar.org/afghan-government

And then we have numerous secondary sources that confirms declaration that "per constitution of Afghanistan" - note: as he cannot become otherwise - Vice president is now president https://www.timesnownews.com/international/article/afghanistan-too-big-for-pakistan-to-swallow-for-taliban-to-govern-acting-president-amrullah-saleh/801070 https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/22/world/asia/afghanistan-taliban-biden-karzai.html https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/17/afghanistan-live-news-us-says-kabul-airport-reopens-as-biden-defends-withdrawal?page=with:block-611bd6ee8f089f8318278e1b https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/panjshir-flies-the-flag-of-resistance-again-298601 https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2021/aug/17/joe-biden-afghanistan-republicans-democrats-us-politics-live-latest-news?CMP=share_btn_tw&page=with%3Ablock-611bd3448f08729d9f06b51b#block-611bd3448f08729d9f06b51b https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/afghanistan-first-vice-president-amrullah-saleh-declares-himself-caretaker-prez-101629210582046.html https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2021/08/17/with-ghani-out-of-country-afghan-vp-saleh-claims-title-of-president.html https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/central-asia/amrullah-saleh-vow-afghanistan-taliban-b1904161.html https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/breaking-amrullah-saleh-declares-himself-as-afghan-president-727148 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/afghan-vice-president-vows-to-fight-taliban-kcn50btsh https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/23/the-two-men-challenging-the-taliban-in-afghanistan from where I will quote: "Saleh has relocated to Panjshir and declared himself the caretaker president of Afghanistan, in accordance with the Afghan constitution."

And we have here high ranking Afghanistan government official - ambassador that confirms that per constitution Amrulah Salleh is their president now https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/afghan-embassy-in-tajikistan-seeks-interpol-detention-order-for-ashraf-ghani/2339350 and another discussion with Afghan ambassador that in article is stipulated Afghan constitution and recognition that Amrulah Salleh is president https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2021/08/we-are-still-representing-our-country-afghan-ambassador-serving-deposed-government https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/afghan-embassy-in-tajikistan-seeks-interpol-detention-order-for-ashraf-ghani/2339350

"Ambassadors and diplomats represent a flag that no longer flies over Kabul and a constitution that no longer governs the country. The man they nominally serve is Amrullah Saleh – former vice-president to deposed leader Ashraf Ghani – who is head of state according to the constitution, although in practice his authority extends only over the Panjshir Valley, a stronghold of anti-Taliban resistance "

I must also note that while in some sources in different forms it is said that he declared himself, claims himself that is quite normal as nobody else could claim except him or declare him to be a president, that is his duty and only for him to do, if he does not want to become president nobody could force him to do as he can also be absent or resign and next in line of succession would come in that place.

I thing that there is beside primary source enough secondary sources that confirms primary source regarding matter that he is president under constitution - as otherwise is impossible and that part of this article should note that. Loesorion (talk) 11:21, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Apologies, but I won't address every point you made, as I feel I only need to address one to make my point; that first list of secondary sources you provided are very careful not to describe Saleh as the President, but to describe him in terms of his claims and assertions. If such a weight of sources do so, there is no justification for us to do otherwise. BilledMammal (talk) 12:05, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


 * No need to apologies, almost every source mentioned also asserts "per constitution" for claims or no claims. In same time we have best reliable source - constitution - with few other legal sources that I gave here in Talk that gives him legal right to assert such claim. And Afghan officials in source confirm he is now per constitution new president. Rightful claim cannot come out of thin air. Again claim is normal and constitutions assert it is his legal duty to do so if he wishes. And in "first list of secondary sources " there is also I quote "Acting President" that clearly and I would say best describes what he is now. And now focus in this talk is not about is he acting president or claiming to be president but how can he become president - on what succession is based and I stipulate that it is constitution. Loesorion (talk) 12:22, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I've looked through those sources again, and I don't believe any use the phrase "acting president" without qualifiers. For instance, the first puts "acting president" in quotes; the last states "declaring himself the acting president of the country". Can you link the one you are referring to? BilledMammal (talk) 22:53, 25 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Dear BilledMammal this topic is about is he a president under "constitution", topic is not about is he acting president or some other word attached to official rank. And acting is just my observation of his current status and probably there are enough sources to cover it but we do not need a source for describing current role as he is not elected president in this case and he could only be acting president or just a president - formally official title is "The President of Islamic Republic Afghanistan" without any other words attached to it. For more see Acting president and here lets discuss constitution that is real subject of this Talk topic and I would appreciate input on that as all sources here are added because of constitution and succession - becoming a Afghan President under constitution. Loesorion (talk) 19:24, 27 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I don't believe I've been clear. I don't believe it is appropriate for us to discuss the constitution; we would have to make an interpretation of the source, as it is not straightforward, descriptive statement of facts. In other words, it would violate WP:PRIMARY. BilledMammal (talk) 22:24, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

This doesn't make too much sense to me. IF he ceased to be First Vice President on August 15? How then could he assume powers & duties as Acting President, on August 17? GoodDay (talk) 16:28, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Has Saleh left the country?
IF he's left Afghanistan, does that mean he's no longer (if ever) acting president? GoodDay (talk) 18:33, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * , he probably has left. But what we state in the infobox is that this is merely a self-declared claim to being Acting President. We'd need a source saying he's dropped the claim to say it's over in the infobox. He can continue to claim that from outside the country—we're not really saying it's a valid claim with the current wording, anyway. ― Tartan357  Talk 19:01, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There's still the confusion over when his tenure as First vice president ended. If he ceased being Fvp on August 15. How then could he claim to have become acting president on August 17. GoodDay (talk) 19:06, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * , I agree with you, but kept getting reverted when editing to say he's still FVP, and gave up on it. ― Tartan357  Talk 19:49, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There's no confusion over the fact that his tenure has ended. People can claim many things, I can claim I am queen of England, it does not mean Wikipedia should acknowledge such claims in the Infobox. His claim should be only mentioned and not treated at face value. --Drako (talk) 19:09, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
 * But Wikipedia should acknowledge that you claim you are the rightful Queen of England if reliable sources acknowledge that fact. For instance, we have an extensive set of articles on people claiming to the rightful King of France, because reliable source reflect their claim. Perhaps in the case of these French pretenders their argument is stronger based on their genealogical decent, but that is for reliable sources to decide, not us. BilledMammal (talk) 00:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Not to nitpick, but the English monarchy ended in 1707. Queen of the United Kingdom would be the accurate description. GoodDay (talk) 04:52, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I say we should 're-add' the August 15, 2021 departure date, as he's obviously no longer First Vice President of Afghanistan. Furthermore, we should delete his claiming to be acting president, since A) he's no longer the FVP & B) The Constitution he alludes to, no longer exists & thus the presidency, the vice presidencies, no longer exists. GoodDay (talk) 18:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

FWIW: He's no longer listed at either List of current heads of state and government or List of current vice presidents. -- GoodDay (talk) 19:09, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Acting president
Hi

He is not acting president. He only claimed it in Twitter before being banned for this. --Panam2014 (talk) 17:51, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Well then, we should 're-add' August 15, 2021 as his last day as First vice president & then delete entirely, the acting president entry out of the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 17:53, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * it is time to remove it. --Panam2014 (talk) 11:45, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * IMHO, yes. Seeing nobody is objecting. GoodDay (talk) 16:08, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Two issues: justification for removing his claim to the presidency and persistent unhelpful edits regarding his flight
Greetings. Firstly, I am curious as to what the justification for removing his claim to the presidency from the infobox? Yes, he is only a claimant to the presidency, but as long as this is specified, is this not worthy of mention? It's not like he's some random dude who proclaimed himself president, he was the VP and his claim is arguably supported by the constitution due to Ghani's flight, and he briefly had SOME sort of support to his claim in Panjshir, even if the rest of the country was beyond his reach. At the very least, we could state that his claimed presidency ended when Panjshir fell. Looking at previous discussions on the issue, it seems a major point of contention is the fact that we state that his vice presidency ended on the 15th because of the fall of Kabul? Again, as long as we specify that he is merely a claimant to the presidency (and therefore his actual power is limited), I don't see the problem with stating that his legal vice presidency de facto ended on the 15th.

Secondly, this article seems to be a frequent target of pro-NRF propaganda. The Taliban *has* captured Panjshir, Saleh *has* fled to Tajikistan. There was no "strategic retreat"; the NRF were defeated and their leaders fled the country. That's a fact. I strongly suspect that the article should at least temporarily be placed on semi-protected status so that these unhelpful edits trying to spin Saleh's flight and the NRF's defeat as "Taliban propaganda" can stop. Silver181 (talk) 13:51, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * This is not a fact, especially since the NRF just recaptured Andarab and Annab. Also the NRF denied Massoud fled, you are either misled or a propogandist. PanjshirLions (talk) 04:18, 11 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Silver181 is absolutely wrong in this case and he shows a very clear and open bias, we know he is unreliable as he claimed the NRF was "defeated" and was a fact. This is not a fact and is untrue, the Panjshir conflict is ongoing and they have captured more districts with images and videos to prove, so how can they be defeated? If anything we would need a lock on the page to prevent people like Silver181. PanjshirLions (talk) 04:20, 11 October 2021 (UTC)


 * On September 9, the NRF announced that a parallel government will be created in response to the Taliban's formation of its governement in Kabul. It was announced on September 29 that Amrullah Saleh will lead the government in exile, according to a statement published by the Afghan Embassy in Geneva, Switzerland, which also backs the NRF. https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/afghanistan-amrullah-saleh-government-exile-taliban-1858811-2021-09-29 PanjshirLions (talk) 04:25, 11 October 2021 (UTC)


 * First, please indent your comments. Second, with all due respect, your username is literally "PanjshirLions" and your edit history consists almost exclusively of talk page edits that argue in favor of portraying the NRF in a positive light. It's very hard to assume good faith when you clearly are not impartial on the issue yourself. I get it, you hate the Taliban (understandably so), but there's no point in trying to deny the reality that they are in charge of Afghanistan. Do you have any reliable sources saying that the NRF has recaptured Andarab? That Massoud didn't flee the country? The fact that they want to declare a government-in-exile is irrelevant; if anything, it proves that they have lost whatever foothold they had in the country. A government-in-exile, pretty much by definition, does not have any significant power in the country it claims to represent. And before you cite the article from France24, a spokesman for the NRF (a LITERAL "propagandist", in your terms) is not a reliable source when other, more impartial sources have stated that Massoud fled. Silver181 (talk) 15:42, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: our own wikipedia says Andarab is controlled by the NRF, we have seen the pictures and the fighting through the past weeks. Also a wiki mod also cleared me saying my name was okay as it just meant "five lions" and that the subject matters and what I write and not my name. PanjshirLions (talk) 04:52, 12 October 2021 (UTC)


 * The only difference is that your name is Silver181, and that's okay, but the facts are out there, but your not listening to them. Confirmed news is confirmed news, it doesn't matter how many outlets you bring if they turn out to be false. Remember, recent information is often mistaken or misinterpreted. There was just a video of resistance fighters vowing revenge in the Panjshir mountains, but your probably going to ignore it.(INDENT not available on this platform sorry for the trouble) PanjshirLions (talk) 04:54, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Juan Guido Conparision
Just a note: If we have gotten rid of Amrullah Saleh's presidency, then why have we not gotten rid of Juan Guido's presidency? It obviously can't go both ways. PanjshirLions (talk) 23:00, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Guaidó** PanjshirLions (talk) 23:01, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

(note I didnt put that source it was automatically there) PanjshirLions (talk) 23:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I actually concur with this. Guaidó's claimed offices are displayed in his infobox. While he has received more international recognition than Saleh, Saleh actually did have some limited control within his own country in the form of Panjshir, whereas Guaidó has not really been "in charge" of any part of Venezuela for the duration of the crisis there. And you can argue that the office of the Afghan presidency is "destroyed" or "no longer exists" or whatever while the Venezuelan presidency is still a thing, but again, the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan remained in power in Panjshir for a time after Kabul fell. If you really want to get particular with it, you can just say that his claimed presidency de facto ended when Panjshir fell, as I suggested in my previous comment.


 * Also, PanjshirLions, if you made a mistake, you can just edit your original comment instead of adding new comments with corrections. 02:02, 19 October 2021 (UTC)Silver181 (talk)


 * Guaido no longer has "President of Venezuela" in his infobox. GoodDay (talk) 16:48, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree with above user. Saleh should be credited as acting president of Afghanistan, for the time between Ghani's escape and the fall of Panjshir. --Bedivere (talk) 22:33, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
 * No opposition as of now. Will add "President of Afghanistan" office as "acting, de iure", between Ghani's escape and the fall of Panjshir. --Bedivere (talk) 23:41, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

DS area
I appreciate the protection, but I think you may have gotten the DS area wrong. WP:ARBIPA is India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, not Arab-Israeli. This article doesn't have anything to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict. You may wish to make the appropriate changes to the DS logs and protection reason. 25stargeneral (talk) 01:30, 17 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Will do. Thanks. Daniel Case (talk) 03:52, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Daniel Case (talk) 03:54, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Saleh's name is spelt wrong in the infobox
When trying to edit it, the name is indeed spelt correctly in the editing section. Is it a bug with Wkipedia? It doesn't display the shadda nor does it correctly display the haa2. Rohonk1 (talk) 08:24, 27 May 2023 (UTC)