Talk:An-Naml

Transliteration
Why is the English transliteration of the title of this surah "Al-Naml"? Shouldn't it be "An-Naml" instead? Jane Fairfax 14:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Miracle of 19 in Quranic Initialed Suras: Sura 27
Peace be upon you all,

God Willing I propose to include the following under a new section, if there are no reservations I shall God Willing upload it in another 36 hours time.

(Start of the section)

Miracle of 19 in Quranic Initialed Suras: Interlocking Suras 19, 20, 26, 27 & 28

Of the 29 Quran Suras (of the 114) that have verse 1 as Quranic initials (Muqattat), Sura 19, Sura 20, Sura 26, Sura 27 and Sura 28 which are prefixed with H. (ه), T.H. (Ta Ha)(طه ), T.S. (Ta Seen)(طس ), & T.S.M. (Ta Seen Mim)(طسم ) have an intricate interlocking relationship that links these overlapping Quranic Initials to produce a total that is a multiple of 19. The initial “H.” is found in Suras 19 and 20. The initials “T.H.” prefix Sura 20. The initials “T.S.” are found in Sura 27, while the initials “T.S.M.” prefix its surrounding Suras 26 & 28.

It can be noted that the longer, more complex, interlocking and overlapping initials are found in the suras where uncommonly powerful miracles are narrated. For example, the virgin birth of Jesus is given in Sura 19, which is prefixed with the longest set of initials, K.H.Y.`A.S.

The interlocking initials “H.,” “T.H.,” “T.S.,” and “T.S.M.” prefix suras describing the miracles of Moses, Jesus, and the uncommon occurrences surrounding Solomon and his jinns. God thus provides stronger evidence to support stronger miracles. The frequencies of occurrence of these initials are presented in Table below.

''Table: Occurence of the Quranic Initials "H.," "T.H.," "T.S. ", and "T.S.M." in Their Suras''

(End of the section)

In order to support the above fact please see the explanations below:

(1)	The Miracle of 19: unveiled by Rashad Khalifa Ph.D. in the Quran revealed by God to last Prophet Muhammad is not an original research. This is proven for example by Appendix 1 of the Authorized English Version translated from the Original by Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D. copyright © Islamic Productions and http://www.19miracle.org/math-miracle-of-quran/.

(2)	The above is based on reliable & verifiable source.

Explanation: (a) It is based on the widely accepted Quran text by Tanzil.net

(b) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa states Khalifa's first publicized report in the Arab world appeared in the Egyptian magazine Akher Sa'a, in January, 1973. Updates of his research were subsequently published by the same magazine later that year and again in 1975: • ^ Akher Sa'a magazine, Egypt, January 24, 1973. • ^ Akher Sa'a magazine, Egypt, November 28, 1973. • ^ Akher Sa'a magazine, Egypt, December 31, 1975.

(c ) Book written by Cesar Adib Majul, Ph.D., Former Dean, Institute of Islamic Studies, University of the Philippines regarding the 19 based Mathematical Structure of Quran:http://books.google.com/books/about/The_names_of_Allah_in_relation_to_the_ma.html?id=pntCAAAACAAJ and https://catalog.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?BBID=973897&DB=local and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Adib_Majul

(d) The proofs are easily verifiable Sura 19, Sura 20, Sura 26, Sura 27, Sura 28.

(3)	The fact is based on data accepted by main stream & majority of Shia and Sunni Muslims worldwide.

Explanation: (a) These are based on independent, verifiable, reliable, undisputed Quran data, reference texts commonly accepted by those in control of web sites and Quran printings etc. of Sunnis and Shias too, and widely used by “mainstream” Muslims worldwide - The King Fahd Press based Arabic Quran by www.tanzil.net is also used by main stream Shia sect http://quran.al-islam.org/ - we see following statement made for the Quranic initials in Sura 2 verse 1.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:1] Many interpretations have been forwarded and manipulated by some commentators, but they are all based upon conjecture, devoid of any definite authority. According to the holy Imams these letters are a means of reaching the higher realms of true knowledge, available in the verses of the Quran, but the domain of sublime confidences are reserved only for the chosen representatives of Allah.

(b) The Structure of 19 in Quran is one of the modules (Module VI page 13 -14) taught at The University of Calicut, Kerala, India http://www.universityofcalicut.info/syl/Islamic.pdf

(4)	The neutral point of view,

The Quran as we all (muslims, submitters to God) know is the unifying factor for moderate ... Islam (Submission to God); therefore to minimize the extremists and sectarian viewpoints (which would be danger to world peace), we trust Wikipedia would not wish to restrict freedom of information etc., of modern, logical & scientific information to the Muslims – for example (per (3) (b) above), 19 based structure in Quran is being taught, obviously to “Mainstream” Muslim and even non-Muslims within Islamic History. Thus with due respect I submit that the modern facts under discussion are not a matter of any issues or view points or ideas. India is the largest democracy in the World, a Secular Country, and its Kerala State give due Constitutional recognition to various religions to the extent that this relation between 19 and Quran is taught at the University of Calicut, Kerala, mentioned above.

Peace

(DukhanSmoke (talk) 15:45, 22 January 2012 (UTC))

Miracle/ Code/ Structure of 19 in the interlocking Suras 19, 20, 26, 27 & 28
This is carry forward of the discussions on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bastique under topic "Sura 27: Miracle of 19 in Quranic Initialed Suras: Interlocking Suras 19, 20, 26, 27 & 28"

Peace Shipmaster and Bastique, will address to your concerns point wise God Willing.

1.	Muqatta’at page on the Wikipedia is a broader subject one cannot describe even in the most concise form the various facets to the article, it is like describing all the 114 suras of the Quran on Sura page alone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sura obviously there are so many facets to each Suras of the Quran it is but logical to have separate page for each 114 suras in the Quran as we have on Wikipedia. Similarly Muqatta’at is a broader topic one cannot detail all the facets of all the Suras with Muqatta’at within Muqatta’at page alone, it makes sense to see why Wikipedia has a page on United States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states and a page on list of states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states#Lists and an independent page for state called Arizona for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona. It would not make sense to write about the state Arizona on “United States” page or even on the “List of US States” either.

Secondly the structure of 19 in Quran is not limited to Suras with Muqatta’at alone - the structure of 19 is widespread to other facets of the Quran; and writing there, aspects about the structure 19 that are not relevant to Muqatta’at, would not be logical … nor, I believe, acceptable to Wikipedia. Therefore the structure of 19 I believe should be included in the individual Sura pages that it is relevant to; and I request you to reconsider your stand regarding placing this article on the Muqatta’at page.

2.	POV: Agree with your point, in order to fulfil this requirement could we have a statement like “The claims of Rashad Khalifa were initially accepted by the Muslim world but were later rejected owing to his interpretation of the Quran”. The reference for this statement can be taken from the book “Mission to America” that I referred to in my last post. However I am comfortable you framing a phrase addressing this point. "Mission to America", by Yvonne Yazbeck Haddad and lane Idleman Smith, University Press of Florida, 1993, ISBN-10: 0813012163, ISBN-13: 978-0813012162, http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=23405319

With regards to the use of word “Miracle” could we use word “Code” instead.

3.	“A full paragraph”: I agree that the article should be straight, short and sweet for readers without compromising the quality of the information; this may or may not be a full paragraph. I feel we should give due importance to the information (that meets all the criteria of Wikipedia) rather than the size of the information. Even the size of the paragraph is subjective though. Peace (DukhanSmoke (talk) 05:04, 18 March 2012 (UTC))


 * I am ok with your last suggestion. I still think it doesnt belong in the article, but If you put a short paragraph that is not POV I have no problem. --Shipmaster (talk) 05:23, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Peace Shipmaster, thank you for your reply, I have prepared a paragraph and would appreciate your comments God Willing,

"Sura 27 is prefixed with initials T.S. (Ta Seen)(طس ) which form an intricate interlocking relationship that links the overlapping Quranic initials of Sura 19, Sura 20, Sura 26 and Sura 28 to produce a total that is multiple of 19. The initial “H.” is found in Suras 19 and 20. The initials “T.H.” prefix Sura 20, while the initials “T.S.M.” prefix its (Sura 27) surrounding Suras 26 & 28. The total frequency of occurrence all these initials within these suras is 1767 = 19 x 93. This and similar mathematical structures based on the number 19 in Quran was discovered by Rashad Khalifa and as per his findings longer, more complex, interlocking and overlapping initials are found in suras where uncommonly occurring events that he referred as powerful miracles are narrated. For example, the virgin birth of Jesus is given in Sura 19, which is prefixed with the longest set of initials, K.H.Y.`A.S. The interlocking initials “H.,” “T.H.,” “T.S.,” and “T.S.M.” prefix suras describing the miracles of Moses, Jesus, and the uncommon occurrences surrounding Solomon and his jinns. As per him, God thus provides stronger evidence to support stronger miracles. These findings were initially well received by the Muslim world but were later rejected owing to his interpretation of the Quran."

Peace (DukhanSmoke (talk) 18:28, 22 March 2012 (UTC))

This is at least not POV, but IMHO still irrelevant and hard to understand. If you feel you need to put in there I won't object, I will leave it to other people to assess its value. --Shipmaster (talk) 04:26, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I still find it incredibly off-topic. Even if that were not an issue, this paragraph is longer than the rest of the article. If the topic is worthy of an article maybe it should have one of its own and a small mention here, but that's really up to community consensus. Bastique ☎ call me! 04:53, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Peace Shipmaster & Bastique, first of all thanks for replying. God Willing I will not tire showing what I see as appropriate. The initials or Muqatta’at ARE part of the Sura (T.S. is word 1, verse 1 of Sura 27 http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=27&verse=1) And many of the translators like Yusuf Ali, Shakir Ali, Sher Ali and Tanzil.net the widely used Arabic text of the Quran translate the Arabic word “ayaatu” as “verse” http://www.quranbrowser.org/ therefore it is but logical in my opinion and practical to have it on the individual Sura pages. The opinion of having the information on this page or not is a matter of POV as Shipmaster stated. Going forward with Bastique’s reservation about the length of the paragraph, I God willing after shortening the paragraph propose following, and trust that it is acceptable for me uploading it to the main page, however if you still feel there are reservations we can discuss God willing.

'' "Sura 27 is prefixed with initials T.S. (Ta Seen)(طس ) which form an intricate interlocking relationship that links the overlapping Quranic initials of Sura 19, Sura 20, Sura 26 and Sura 28 to produce a total that is multiple of 19. The initial “H.” is found in Suras 19 and 20. The initials “T.H.” prefix Sura 20, while the initials “T.S.M.” prefix its (Sura 27) surrounding Suras 26 & 28. The total frequency of occurrence all these initials within these suras is 1767 = 19 x 93. This and similar mathematical structures based on the number 19 in Quran was discovered by Rashad Khalifa, the findings were initially well received by the Muslim world but were later rejected owing to his interpretation of the Quran." ''

Peace (DukhanSmoke (talk) 04:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC))

Peace, Bastique and Shipmaster, may I request you to kindly respond with your consent regarding the paragraph please. Peace (DukhanSmoke (talk) 00:59, 16 April 2012 (UTC))


 * Peace, may I request you guys to give your final consent, Peace, (DukhanSmoke (talk) 10:38, 29 April 2012 (UTC))

Peace, I had been patiently waiting for your consent for last few months and as there is no reply I presume there is no further objection to my suggestion of including the article on the main page. Peace (DukhanSmoke (talk) 14:16, 12 August 2012 (UTC))