Talk:Analog hole


 * Ezra, Lisa M. (2005). The Failure of the Broadcast Flag: Copyright Protection to Make Hollywood Happy. Hastings Communications and Entertainment Law Journal (Comm/Ent), 27 (Winter, 2005), p. 384-footnote 50, citing Analog Hole (no last access date)

Article's tone
The tone of this article is really condescending towards "non-technical" types. Counter-productive.


 * I am not getting that impression. It offers engineering level information.  I don't find the "you don't have to be an engineer" comment offensive.  To me it represents cutting through any engineering mysticism to say that this is just common sense.  If anything, it is pointing out that average people should not be mystified and just use their common sense.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.91.62.110 (talk) 13:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed, the article seems quite clear and doesn't go into any excessive detail. While some users who are not aware of their computer's need to cache may identify with the judge in question, it is a fundamental clarification that is nessesary.  A link to a cache definition may suffice.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.207.127.243 (talk) 23:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I was just about to add that this article sounds like it was written by a 13 year old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.104.140.76 (talk) 15:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Hardware manufacturers
Back in 1999, I bought a Philips audio CD recorder. I was amazed that it actually gave directions on how to use the "analog hole" to copy write-protected CDs!Rt66lt 05:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Not that amazing, Philips makes its money from hardware so if people want to use their equipment for piracy it's fine by them. It's the content providers that insist on DRM, not the hardware providers. Hardware people would love to remove DRM as hardware sales would go up.


 * While these seems off-topic for the discussion page, I agree. The main argument Disney used in the famous Disney vs Sony case regarding the ban of Sony's new VHS-recorders was the implication that ALL use of the product would be illegal.  Sony and several other manufacturers at the time made very overt statements in their manuals that the VCR-recorder was to be used only for public-domain works or those works you personally have copyright ownership of.  This warning is still listed in CD-recorders, DVD-recorders, and Mini-disc recorders.


 * In their defense, Phillips was simply showing that you CAN obtain copies of works you personally own. Beyond owning the copyright yourself, or making LEGAL back-up copies for personal use, you can also LEGALLY use any copyrighted work for projects termed to be "fair use".  Just because a manufacture has chosen to physically/technically impede the distribution of an artistic work does NOT make it illegal to do so.  Copyrights are government granted to stimulate innovation and public-good in supplying works for the public domain.  The Mickey Mouse Protection Act of 2000 (aka Sonny Bono Act) has made this original intention difficult to demonstrate, due mostly to the contention by Disney and other lobbyists that copyright in a entitlement instead of a time-limited privilege designed to guarantee a first-to-market period to recoup development costs and establish market share.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.207.127.243 (talk) 23:33, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

POV
Not that I disagree with the author(s), but there is a lot of POV editorializing mixed in with the general information here. 128.175.205.71 02:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * hmm yeah, also one wonders if really all of this is true, like the comment on dithering: "Well, we will outlaw that too". One has a good laugh (or whatever the appropriate response) but the question is whether all of the content really fits with the Wikipedia criteria for objectivity. On the other hand, if there simply are no good arguments nor measures against the "analog hole", one could say that the author has done his/her best to show both sides of the story :) //IP-logged user 19 March 2007


 * The "Well, we will outlaw that too" does seem hypothetical. Lets see if we can pull together some specific deletion of weasel words and bring the points into neutral POV in a way that keeps the vigor of the original remarks.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.91.62.110 (talk) 13:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Should mention HDCP
I think there should probably be mention of HDCP as a copy-protection method that is attempting to plug the analog hole.


 * Good point, DRM and HDCP are closely related, but both circumventable with enough effort. The long-term implications of permanently restricting access to works which WILL eventually be public domain is particularly alarming here.  While we've seen an massive increase in orphaned works due to the copyright length extensions, these efforts to permanently restrict distribution after the government-provided monopoly expires is troubling and challenges the constitutionality of current copyright lengths which seem to encourage the loss of works which society has solicited and encouraged by granting exclusive use to the artist or copyright owner.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.207.127.243 (talk) 23:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Recording streaming music
Interesting article. Another example is MySpace. If you open a recording program like the one that comes with Windows, you can record the songs on MySpace that are otherwise not possible to download. The same goes for other web, i.e. streaming, formats, although the limitation is that if your computer makes noises or if the stream is interrupted by the computer or internet connection, you have to restart it if you want to try again. MDuchek 21:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * ...and if you have a cheap sound card, the recording will sound terrible. 199.126.1.82 19:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The elite warez groups don't use cheap sound cards. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 17:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no degrade in quality even on the cheapest soundcards and onboard chipset, because the direct recording of playback audio is kept entirely within the digital domain. The signal never reaches the D/A and A/D converters, it is looped back internally, digitally, thus it's lossless. That feature is provided by the driver. Added by guest user LoneStar, 22. Sep 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.2.0.145 (talk) 16:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Engineering vs. business and political views
It seems to me that while the 'Engineering vs. business and political views' section contains a lot of interesting information, it does seem to have a rather anti big-business agenda, rather than being an objective encyclopedic view of the matter.Joelholdsworth 09:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Well how can we keep the main point, that what is being asked for is very likely physically impossible. It seems to me less anti-big business than a reminder that there is a bottom line physical reality which cannot be waved away. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.91.62.110 (talk) 13:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think there are strong presumptions hiding here. For instance the "Consumer vs. professional equipment" section normalizes the idea of "copy-restricted media". In my eyes, that idea is highly repressive.


 * The "caching controversy".. Calling it a controversy, but if it is as the paragraphs entails, they were pretty much being idiots.88.159.78.51 (talk) 08:45, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

AnalogWhole.com
This external link appears to be one of several hundred possible software solutions to recording media onto a computer. I removed this link because I didn't want to provide equal time to the entire list of free audio software. I see this link as failing WP:EL. Binksternet (talk) 17:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I did not post this link but rather found the link here and visited the software. In our research we always disable our Internet connection when testing or running new software. In the case of Analog Whole, however, we discovered that it would not run without an active Internet connection and rather than hiding this fact announced to us that an Internet connection could not be found. Our suspicion is that this particular software may be uploading the resulting MP3 file to its own library without asking us for permission and possibly for the purpose of resale. While we support Fair Use we do not feel that such an upload is covered by Fair Use, so aside from posting this information in the body of the article perhaps under a subtitle of blacklisted software we do not support provision of the link. As with all knowledge any can be used for rightful or wrongful purpose. By withholding a link one can show non support of obvious wrongful purpose but depriving others of the reason for not providing the link and a warning that the software may be acting in this way would be equally as wrong. 71.100.174.134 (talk) 02:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

instructables.com How to use the "Analog Hole"
This link is a "how-to" link. By itself it is harmless. I deleted it because I didn't want this article to become bogged down with a long list of similar articles such as etc. etc. A long list like this is often the result of a single foot-in-the-door entry under External links, unless vigorous preventive measures are taken. However, if the editors here come to the conclusion that they want such a list, feel free to copy and paste this list into the appropriate place. Let's hear from other editors about how they feel regarding a complete list of "how-to" links. Binksternet (talk) 17:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Microsoft.com. Recording Audio
 * How to record streaming audio
 * Record Audio from Line-in (Cassette, LP, etc.)
 * How To Record Audio Podcasts Using Audacity [Video Tutorials]
 * Engadget Podcast 008 - 10.25.2004 / How-To: Record all audio playing through your Mac
 * Tutorial: How To Record Video and Audio With Bulent's Screen Recorder (BSR)
 * Audacity Tutorial: How to Record and Edit Audio with Audacity
 * How to record audio with Wavosaur
 * This list of links is obviously raw and has not been properly screened by any editor. Many of these links turn out to be nothing more than links to retail audio software. The last link, however, appears to be both free of charge and free of ill purpose. On those conditions I would support publication of that link. However, Binksternet, the reason for stating as Wikipedia policy that the number of external links should be minimized is so that editors will not use them to replace article text, whereas a large number might be justified which had special attributes that could not be provided in the body of the article. Although not an external link at this point, a link to the list of free audio software would possibly be a very good example. 71.100.174.134 (talk) 02:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * As a continuation of this thread - I'd like to remove the Implementations link in "See also". The WikiBooks article does not add to the content of this article, and the implementations section only contains links within the list above that was removed a few months ago. This indirect insertion just seems unnecessary. 71.100.x.x - if you'd like to add the external links, why not just copy them over? --Jiuguang (talk) 01:42, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Jiuguang, your purpose here is to stalk and kill the edits of User:Julie Dancer due to your difference with her article in the Wikia which uses logic to define, to support and to defend her right to believe in a traditional God, since you were raised as a Chinese Communist atheist in Beijing. You need to leave Julie alone and to stop deleting her edits for that reason.
 * hahaha really wasn't expecting to read something like that when i navigated onto this page! Unnachamois (talk) 03:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

link to AnalogHoleGaming
Any objection to removing the link to AnalogHoleGaming? I've checked out the link and I can't find anything relevant yet to the subject of this article, especially as the analog hole tends not to apply to software...? Kmenzel (talk) 08:07, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

"Necessity to make it visible and/or audible" - really?
"Media publishers who use digital rights management (DRM), to restrict how a work can be used, perceive the necessity to make it visible and/or audible as a "hole" in the control that DRM otherwise affords them."

Neverminding the hilarity of this statement, it gives "media publishers" a way to close the hole, doesn't it? I mean, who says there IS' acutally any kind of "necessity to make it visible and/or audible"? They're free to do what they want with their media, aren't they? --198.49.180.40 (talk) 16:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

"Cache ban"?
About the statement in the "Engineering vs business and political views" section, does anyone have any sort of citation for this? It really seems a bit silly and hard to believe, and if someone can't furnish proof on it, it should be removed. Runedance (talk) 18:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I've also noticed this issue. The linked article seems not to say anything regarding a cache ban. Nandedamana (talk) 13:20, 12 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The cited article talks about "clause 5.1, effectively banning caching", which actually spans on an exception about temporary acts of reproduction if IIUC. I did a little further digging and it contradicts with the statement:


 * EESC opinion before the cited article is published: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.C_.1998.407.01.0030.01.ENG&toc=OJ:C:1998:407:TOC
 * The passed version after the cited article is published: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32001L0029:EN:HTML
 * A relevant explanation about the background: https://copyrightblog.co.uk/2012/10/17/what-is-a-temporary-copy-and-who-cares/


 * I think the whole section is flawed (own research?) and nobody has improved it in the past 9 years, I'm removing it altogether. Feel free to revert if anyone has found opposing evidence. Talltaller8 (talk) 12:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Dubious statement in Overview...
In the overview section it says:

"Naturally, the use of high quality conversion equipment reduces the amount of noise added, to the point where such noise is essentially imperceptible to the human senses. For instance, playing a video in a DVD player and using a DVD recorder to record the output can create a high-quality copy of the video."

This doesn't really sound right: noise is not added in this process: a perfect copy of the DVD is made. In my opinion this section is wrong - of course, I am no expert, but I feel that unless some citations can be added to this section, it should be removed.

--Unnachamois (talk) 03:09, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not bit perfect for three reasons. First, the copy of the DVD lacks menus. Second, the analog path between the DVD player's video DAC and the DVD recorder's video ADC adds noise. Third, the DVD recorder's real-time MPEG-2 encoder adds noise. We're talking about the analog hole between two consumer-electronics DVD devices, not DVDFab Decrypter and a PC DVD burner. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 19:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this is dubious. The claim in the article is not about the use of consumer-level equipment; it's expressed as an overarching general statement that claims to be rooted in information theory.

"In general, performing a digital-to-analog conversion followed by an analog-to-digital conversion results in the addition of noise in an information-theoretic sense relative to the original digital signal. This noise can be measured and quantified. Naturally, the use of high quality conversion equipment reduces the amount of noise added, to the point where such noise is essentially imperceptible to the human senses."

Since the original file is digital, it is possible for high-quality conversion equipment to make a perfect copy. The noise level added by the analog conversion just has to be sufficiently less than the discretization noise in the digital signal. The end result will be a copy that has every bit the same as the original, with zero errors. This is not impossible in an information-theoretic sense, nor even in a practical sense. This is because the original file doesn't have infinite information content to begin with, so a sufficiently low level of noise in the conversion will not affect any bits in the final copied digital file.

As an addendum, I think the author of that sentence was confused between a process that converts Analog-to-Digital-to-Analog and a process that converts Digital-to-Analog-to-Digital. The former will always result in theoretical signal degredation because the original analog signal contains infinite information (if a perfect copy, including what would normally be considered signal noise, is desired) and the intermediate digital version contains finite information. The latter, which is the basis of the "Analog hole", has an intermediate step that only loses information if the analog signal has too low signal-to-noise ratio, or the digital re-conversion has too low resolution. This would be the case if using a camcorder to record a movie in the theatre, but not if using properly-designed equipment to copy a storage disk.

I've rewritten the offending paragraph (which basically resulted in it being shortened to a couple sentences). Feel free to improve my version.--JB Gnome (talk) 22:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

NPOV removed
I've removed the NPOV template, please use for sections or  for sentences, then detail issues here. This will help address them in a timely manner. - RoyBoy 05:14, 14 November 2011 (UTC)