Talk:Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism/Archive 1

Jesus
Was Jesus a Jewish anarchist? His ideas were certainly unpopular with the Jewish hierarchy and the Sanhedrin, as they posed a threat to the status quo. nirvana2013 08:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

There were both, authoritarian and anti-authoritarian tendencies within early Christianity, and within the Pharisee society as well. The Sanhedrin represented the most popular religious movement; its members were often persecuted, killed and tortured by the authorities. Jesus's ideas posed a threat to the local Roman authorities, but he was - argueably - not any more anti-authoritarian, than many Pharisee figures, mentioned in the Talmud, including quite a few members of the Sanhedrin (although, perhaps, he was much more antinomian, which is not always the same thing).

From the perspective of the Christian Anarchists, Jesus was an anarchist. However, the objective of this artcile is to show the anarchist ideas and tendencies, that lay within more or less traditional streams of Judaism (hence the title - Anarchism and Judaism). Today, Jesus is usually associated with Christianity, rather then Judaism, though he was personally a religious Jew.

Laplandian 22:20, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[Untitled]
This page should be renamed "Anarchy and Orthodoxy" or "Anarchism and Eastern Europe piety." There were plenty of Jewish anarchists at the turn of the last century who were not religious in the modern sense of the word and still based their anarchy on their Judaism. There is a continuous thread on this page of if the author was "Orthodox or not." More than a contradiction in terms for an anarchist! SO the page should either be renamed as Orthodox or the lines about people being Orthodox need to be removed. Also the prime Jewish anrachist was Buber who created an entire langauge of Jewish anarchism- that language is lacking on this page.

Also Abrabanel while anti-monarch was a completly conservative thinker and does not belong.--Jayrav 20:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The page confuses "open source," liberalism, anti-war, and common folk with anarchism in many places and needs a serious editoral clean up. Much of your European material is better about the folksbienne popularist Dubnow than anarchism.--Jayrav 20:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC) I would also advise a serious clean up of the material that is original research and original opinions- some very personal- so that the whole page does not get deleted. Look up OR - original research in wiki--Jayrav 20:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:SYNT - to clean up the original research. --Jayrav 14:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I renamed this article "Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism" ("Orthodoxy" might be misinterpreted as Christian or some other orthodox religious tradition). You are right, it is all about traditional halachic Judaism. I just copied the name from a subtitle in Anarchism and religion, without thinking into it. I personally find anarchists, who seriously adhere to religious traditions, the most appealing and interesting of all anarchists - whether it's Orthodox Jews, Zapatista Shamans, Quakers, Daoists etc. Serious religious people, especially mystics, are hackers of reality and mind. Therefore I wrote exactly about the Orthodox.

I don't see any contradiction between anarchism and adhering or preaching a particular religion, and there are always been religious anarchist people and movements (such as the founders and some members of the Catholic Worker Movement). Most anarchists view anarchist society as a stateless communist federation of syndicates, cooperatives and councils. Basically, anarchism is voluntary communism. Actually, many anarchists avoid the term "anarchy", because it's commonly associated with nihilism and lack of order. Communes can be as conservative as they want to be, as long as they don't impose their principles by force. Actually, many religious anarchist movements, such as Russian Dukhobors, are quite ascetic and particularistic. Tolsoyans also held by very conservative principles (modesty, chastity, celibacy etc.). So what? No one forced them to do so. Tolstoyan communes were a beautiful example of free classless society. Liberal lifestyle has little to do with the class struggle.

You are right about Abarbanel. Perhaps, he was no more anarchist, then Marxists, who also believe, that the state will dissapear in some remote future. I modeled this article more or less after Christian Anarchism, which also includes information about anti-war, vegetarianism, yoga and meditation and hypothetic thoughts about pre-Church Christianity. Some of these themes are relevant to anarchist thought and provide useful information. I know, that the page is still very raw, and I would like to hear more suggestions about it. What original research exactly are you talking about? Laplandian 17:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I edited a few things and made clear, that I meant exactly Orthodox Judaism and, primarily, socialist anarchism. Hence, various anti-capitalist and anti-property ideas clearly belong here. BTW, what's "liberal" in this article? Laplandian 23:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Links to blogs
I have deleted the link to the blog *Anarcho-Judaism, because it seems to be inapropriate for a serious encyclopedia article. The blog does not seem to represent any consistent anarchist viewpoint (I was not even able to figure out, whether the author is religous or anti-religious, syndicalist/communist, individualist or just some anarchistically inclined troubled kid). IMHO, the blog sounds like a collection of totally random rebellious thoughts. Because the link was posted anonymously, I am not able to discuss the issue and have to delete it. Laplandian 15:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Is Laplandian a sockpuppet for Mobius? Methinks so. The author of the unmentionable Bizayon has arrived to help clear up your confusion. Sholom, as he is known to his friends, feels that identity labels are best kept to a minimum; and he resents the dismissive attitude behind the label of "anarchistically inclined troubled kid". There's no need to waste your valuable time attepting to figure him out, as he would gladly do that for you. Any questions regarding his religious or political opinions can be sent to him via e-mail, with a lengthy response to follow shortly thereafter on his blog.DayKart 02:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope. Laplandian is not Mobius, but thanks for such an assumption (English is not my native language, and I'm glad, that it's good enough to cause such a confusion). In order to clarify the issue, I had changed the title of this article to "Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism". By "Orthodox" I don't necessarily mean today's mainstream Orthodox movements (conventional monotheism with strict rules, which you may never doubt or violate); I primarily mean the original Chasidic and mystical movements, which were primarily pantheistic, somewhat antinomian and clearly socially radical. By "Anarchism" I mean, basically, voluntary socialism or communism. The objective of this article is to show, that at least some expressions of Orthodox (or "culturally traditional") Judaism are compatible with anarchist political views. To be more exact, it's about a Jewish analogue of the Catholic Worker Movement, Tolstoyans and other groups, who are religiously traditional and, at the same time, libertarian socialist. Laplandian 16:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Now, back to the Anarchist Rabbi. I apologize for the "troubled kid" label, but - I'm very sorry to say that - his blog does not seem to be very informational. A lot of refreshing punk-style talk, but no serious research on class struggle, anti-capitalism and other themes, that are crucially important for most anarchists. I just do not see, how this link can fit into this particular article. Laplandian 16:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The label itself is not the issue, but the accompanying dismissive attitude. Sholom's blog is not meant to be informational, it is a medium for the "anarchistically inclined troubled kid" to sort through his discombobulated opinions and issues; and to critically address the authoritarian elements in 21st Century Judaism. The long-term goal of the blog, once said issues have been worked through, is for Sholom to systematically present his personal philsophy of Judaism; a philosophy which is primarily atheistic, extremely antinomian, and clearly socially radical. This particular link, IMHO, has no relevance to this particular article; although a number of the coherent points scattered throughout the blog's archives can definitely be used to enhance the article.DayKart 22:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I would never express a dismissive attitude to a blog, that it's not intended to be informational (and I actually didn't - I just expressed my doubts about its nature). I also found some ideas on Sholom's blog quite refreshing and thought provoking, and I also sometimes talk in similar counterculture fashion in blogs and forums - but, IMHO, such content does not seem to be appropriate for an encyclopedia. That's it. Nothing personal. Laplandian 02:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * See WP:EL. It is Wikipedia policy not to link to blogs. I think the link to Orthodox Anarchist is worth-while, as it is a fairly important blog, e.g. profiled in Tikkun magazine. But Anarchist Rabbi is fairly marginal, and the post bullet-points-on-moses-judaism.html is not the sort of citation wikipedia pages should link to. See also discussion on Jewish anarchism page. BobFromBrockley 17:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Bob, are you still upset about our "rejiocing" incident several months ago? Or is this a sincere effort to improve Bet-settler by exorcising from it any reference to the unmentionable Bizayon? The specific post in question was written in response to my having been linked to from WP; a glance at this article's edit history will show that it initially linked to my blog's main page, but that I updated it. DayKart 02:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Laplandian is not me. I can easily speak for myself.  With regards to this thread and the other @ Jewish anarchism, I think you need to distinguish whether the criteria for inclusion is simply being a Jewish anarchist, or of being a Jewish anarchist of repute.  I have no problem with Sholom being in the list of links, but I don't think he's known enough by Wikipedia's standards. His knowledge, awareness, and/or practice of anarchism is not in question, as far as I'm concerned.  The issue is, does anyone know who he is besides a handful of us in the blogging community and his immediate circle of friends?  If a biographical article were added to Wikipedia on Sholom, it would be deleted because he simply doesn't qualify as an individual of repute as far as Wikipedia is concerned.  I, on the other hand, have qualified, already surviving a dispute on my page: Daniel Sieradski.  Of course, this is with no disrespect to Sholom nor is it a statement of ego.  But case in point -- I didn't add myself to these articles.  Someone else added me.  Sholom added himself.  He left a comment on my blog from the same IP the insertion of his URL came from.  Mobius1ski 15:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * A biographical article on Sholom has been added to Wikipedia, sometime in the late summer of 2005, and was deleted shortly thereafter for non-notability. I'm under the impression that if the article were to be recreated now, in February of 2007, it would survive the vfd. I assumed (incorrectly) that Laplandian was Dan's persona on Wikipedia ("sockpuppet" was the wrong word for me to have used) due to the extreme similarity between the content of this article and what I know of Dan's philosophy.DayKart 22:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Although I am flattered that you think I added myself, I have way too much respect for Wikipedia (which I usually call "Bet-settler") as a body of knowledge to try and "game the system". The insertion of the link was done by a friend at whose house I've been crashing and whose network I've been using; hence the IP address being the same. DayKart is Sholom's username on Wikipedia, and he always logs in for his edits. I am of the opinion that, as a non-neutral party, my own opinion is entirely irrelevant to this discussion; and does not count in the process of obtaining consensus.DayKart 22:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, I believe, that everyone's opinion, neutral or not, is relevant in reaching consensus... Laplandian 03:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * In that case, my (non-neutral) opinion is that the link be removed from this article; as I have not referred to myself as Orthodox in at least six years.DayKart 05:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Bad punctuation
You should not be using a comma before "that" in most cases. The Bible indicates, that the pre-monarchic Jewish society was anarchistic -> The Bible indicates that the pre-monarchic ....

Judaism accepts, that truth is relative -> Judaism accepts that truth is relative

Parselmouth 05:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Quick citation fix
In the "Social System" section, the cite to Avot for "What's mine is yours" etc. should be 5:13, not 5:10. Now fixed.JBJD (talk) 01:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism
On 16:16, 13 June 2010 someone had inserted anonymously a parapraph, claiming that Judaism "clearly mandates" the expulsion of the Palestinians and forbids to make peace with them. Added a refutation and moved it to the Criticisms section. Laplandian (talk) 15:16, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

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