Talk:Anarchism in Greece/Archive 1

Worthless
This is just propaganda. This article was probably written by anarchists and not only contains moronic arguments but also changes historical facts. Requires major cleanup. Imagine how the communism article would be, if it had been written by stalin! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.212.104.230 (talk) 14:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

The article for 60-90's is temporal and non subjective, as it is a copy from a post in indymedia (adress posted above). I concider the facts in it somehow accurate even it is written under an ideological bias. This was done due to lack of time and soon will be corrected. So any claims for propaganda inmho should stop. Should you consider quoting the moronic arguments you refer too?

Please Refrain from cleanup till the finish of the article
What can't you understand about temporal and non subjective ? @all:Let's make use of the talk feature to write a great and subjective article, not for nonconstructive critics like the  " You forgot to mention how anarchists assassinated Hitler and Mussolini, won the troyan war by themselves, euro 2004(it was them really), won ww2(not ww1 though they were taking a nap resting after wining the balcanic wars)." Except that cr*p making a subjective article only through mainstream newspapers and encyclopedias inmho won't do you any good -_- 13:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)13:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)13:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)13:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)85.73.152.31 13:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

ektos thematos oi anafores gia to pws ksekinhse o anarxismos ktl --GrWikiMan 07:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * They are not necessarily out of subject. They are just not well-placed.--Yannismarou 13:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe someone should write something about this: "Suspected anarchists damage banks in central Athens" bogdan 10:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

So you used an indymedia article for the wikipedia anarchy in greece article? This is plain rediculous how about quoting "xrysi avgi"'s site for fascism in greece?

-Absolute lack of anarchist related violence references. -You mix up communists/anarchists/socialists/none of the above all together. -Lack of anarchy related terrorism and support to terrorist reference.

 The role of anarchists both in student organizing and radicalizing the movement was a catalyst. kala re file mas douleveis? flyer gia ta exarxia ftiaxneis i arthro sto wikipedia?

but for the first time until junta the police got in It was actually the 4th time. It was the first time ever to make arrests inside campus. Btw the occupyiers were not anarchists only a small fraction of them was.

You forgot to mention how anarchists assasinated Hitler and musolini, won the troyan war by themselves, euro 2004(it was them really), won ww2(not ww1 though they were taking a nap resting after wining the balcanic wars). Im probably going to edit this using normal encyclopedias and newspaper articles when i find time....

Early discussion
Oh,and the previous articles weren't an outrage: "Anarchism in Greece takes many different forms, from the assassination of the Greek king in 1913 to the student protestors who brought down the Papadopoulos regime in 1973. The word "anarchism" in the English language derives from the Greek for "no rulers". Some anarchists, including Peter Kropotkin, have identified the ancient Greek philosopher Zeno of Citium as an originator of the philosophy. Moreover, ancient Greek sophist Antiphon was the first Western world philosopher claiming that men need no laws to live, but only the sentiment of shame is necessary for a society to function. In their fight against the State, they resort to both violent and non violent actions" or " "Favourite weapons knives, sticks, nails, rock, molotof bombs, and simple bombs" eh? Kanibalos 12:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

@"ruthless critic" below Oh, and plz remember that at a time Socialism had a different meaning than today...

Got an interview from |01%2601-0501!cod20501$28220.html|Gianis Tamtakos yesterday and obtained some facts ,will publish tomorrow... Kanibalos

Too many images
Some should be removed. What do you think? Mitsos 11:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeap
You 're true ^^. Removed 3 ... Kanibalos 10:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment:Anarchism_In_Greece
Dispute for political events and neutrality. Totally disputed tag on an article tagged under construction.

Statements of editors :
 * Oh,and the previous articles weren't an outrage (...)

Should you consider quoting the moronic arguments you refer too?
 * The article for 60-90's is temporal and non subjective, as it is a copy from a post in indymedia (adress posted above). I concider the facts in it somehow accurate even it is written under an ideological bias. This was done due to lack of time and soon will be corrected. So any claims for propaganda inmho should stop.

@all:Let's make use of the talk feature to write a great and subjective article, not for nonconstructive critics(...)
 * What can't you understand about temporal and non subjective ?

Comments:
 * Indymedia is quoted in an article concerning anarchism in greece! I guess then that Xrisi Avgi (greek neonazi organisation) will be quoted in "fascism in greece" and "immigrants in greece"? Get a grip kids, get a grip.


 * This is just propaganda. This article was probably written by anarchists and not only contains moronic arguments but also changes historical facts. Requires major cleanup.

10:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Comments on the request for comment
Requested help because of the dispute/comments above. This is the first article I started writing in wikipedia and it wasn't very encouraging to have people saying that I'm writing outrageous things and propaganda. Tried to resolve things in talk page but as it seems currently I'm the only one who does research for the article (and have been from day 1 I entered wikipedia ) and people just passed and then forgot the article. My main problem is that I don't feel very nice having to see the totally disputed tag every time i log into the article (thing that happens couple of times every day) and i feel that this (the question of whether the article is written under political bias and I forge history as it is claimed above) should be done when the article is finished and all citations are added. I tried to show good faith in the talk page and to learn the ropes as faster as I could (to quicken this I got a more experienced user to adopt me), contrary to people who from my line of sight where just here to say their opinion and then leave. Kanibalos 11:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Users who insist on keeping the totally disputed tag, should make a list here on the talk page of the things they believe are disputed. Then, all issues could be solved on a "one issue at a time" basis. I'm saying this because on this talk page what I've seen is not specific objections to specific issues, but rather a more confrontational attitude in general. People, stay cool and discuss. All is solvable. --Michalis Famelis (talk)  15:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Michali, the thing is that people came, showed their attitude and left :/ (See history last confrontational  post is 1 month + old ). Kanibalos 19:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Then, be bold and finish writing the article as you see fit. Should objections arise, I'm sure we could solve the dispute and to improve the article. --Michalis Famelis (talk)  20:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * This is my first article in wikipedia and I don't know how exactly things work :) . Thank you for the envouragement.

Kanibalos 21:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Removed tag totally disputed and immediate attention under the be bold "rule" and the fact the only presence people opposite to the current article had was only with one post in the talk page.

P>S> Got any darn problems fixit yourself ^^.

Kanibalos 23:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Nikos Kountardas
Why isn't he listed as a prisoner (on the imprisoned list)? He is an anarchist criminal. Mitsos 17:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:SOFIXIT --Michalis Famelis (talk)  11:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Released... And i prefer the use of Anarchist Prisoners in Greece from Imprisoned Greek Anarchists, because of the fact that and non-greek anarchist people where arrested  in the past, like in the G-8 in 2003 or this year a german guy. Kanibalos 18:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes, I heard that a few days ago. I think imprisoned Greek anarchists (or imprisoned anarchists in Greece) is more grammatically correct. To WP:SOFIXIT pou kollaei? Mitsos 10:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I meant to say that instead of asking "where is it", you can add the info yourself. It is more productive that way. --Michalis Famelis (talk)  13:07, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyeditting
I figured I would do a bit of copyeditting to this page, mainly better wording of things, typos and such. Feel free to let me know if it becomes to burdensome. Murderbike 23:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Please Refrain from cleanup like that till the finish of the article
No sense for removing a red link in an under construction article 1& 1/2 week after the cleanup tag removed. Sooner or later the red links while be filled and  making an npov article about political things you live everyday is done  either sloppily or easy and with utter care. Not every article can be finished  in a short timetable and not everyone has the money,time and access to "professional" history books or to fill blanks with-out trying to do original research plus seriously reading any historical book and extarcting information is a tiring job. You should also consider that english is not my native language so while I try to find and compile in the English language  and in an appropriate style for  an article (, that I would really like to finish ,) translating and composing an edit from sources varying from npov anarchist's  newspapers, everyday  commercial  newspapers  and historical  books/sources  that have a language  range from modern  Greek to  Kathareyousa (composed greek ),  I would like to have some laxity of time completing the article. So to complete my point : I clearly dislike the edits made by user Mitsos and deem them unnecessary  and maybe provocative. I would like to see in feature edits, an appropriate  explanation for "cleanup" or other edits in the discussion section (as there where some (I feel again , see history) unexplained , that where mistakenly labeled minor edits). Even though  user Mitsos, has expressed a clear  npow view (In anarchist criminal for a man found not guilty under Greece 's courts . I presume labeling a man criminal , starts from a range of rude and finishes to the point of clearly offensive. This can be seen by the using of the expressions etc. used i.e.  assumed to be guilty of ..., up-to-now charged with the offense of ..., suspected of committing the ...  ,or a declaration without citation or source like a "add political beliefs"  criminal (as far as I know a criminal is someone who was judged and found guilty of committing offenses ) in the discussion page of the article. I want to clearly try to assume good faith in wikipedia even though user Mitsos is a national socialist (check user-page) and so forth has an opposite ideology to mine and even if he has a bad history (disruptive comments, blocks and stuff) .  So  dear Mitsos  either you start the use the  discussion   page I will try to get protection for this page. This is not a personal attack but after seeing your history which is admittedly not of a good hue, I would like the discussion page used instead of the 2 or more consequently edits even is of a cleanup  and a simple remark of red links cleaned ... ( Am I a paranoid wikipedian or are you a  a Red Watcher ?

Sorry for forgetting to mention it last  but all of the red tags you deleted where added  "recently and while with  work in it's duration of it"

Kanibalos 03:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Relax on the personal attacks. I reviewed User:Mitsos's edits and they were of a normal clean-up variety, and correctly marked as minor as they would be uncontroversial under normal circumstances. If there are unfinished/unsourced elements in the article that you intend on fixing in the very near future, consider using to let editors know what you're trying to do. The article is coming along nicely, please continue your work and let us know when you are happy to let it be cleaned-up. If you have serious problems co-operating with others, consider making your own version of the page i.e. User:Kaniballos/Anarchism in Greece where you can perfect your preferred vision and then discuss it on this talkpage so consensus may be reached. Regards,  Skomorokh  incite  04:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * In wikipedia I don't  have a problem  with anyone (so long) and I would like to stay this way . So maybe I do not trust some users  but I don't think I do personal attacks . I express  that mistrust openly and  without (at least trying) getting any emnity in wikipedia ( I mean that  if  mitsos was in the picture ( i was) [[Image:Olympiongc9.jpg|thumb|left]] we could trade blows real life but here that does not matter for me).

Also Skomorokh this is not my article, I know the thinky of the personal page and I know anyone can make any cleanup and even delete the article to the core edit by edit. I don't care about getting competitive or personal in wikipedia. Anyway any user could do the edits that where made. I would call them unneeded and certainly not smart. I mean why start deleting red link in articles that are not ready? To my little experience you fill the links not or let them rest in peace until someone else who can does so. And again I didn't ask for anyone to do anything impossible,  I  said use the discussion page. Kanibalos 10:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I hear what you're saying – it's all no big deal and there's nothing really stopping you from doing what you want with the page. People usually remove redlinks because they are useless – what's the point of a link that doesn't work – and only add links to new articles once they've been created. Skomorokh  incite  12:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The edits I made in the article were completely legitimate, as Skomorokh said. I used the word criminal in talkpage (not in the article) as my personal POV (in talkpages, anyone can state his POV) about that person, and this is exaclty why I didn' use it in the article. No, I wasn't in the picture (esy pou eisouna profanws tha ksereis ti egine...). Mitsos 14:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

"Anarchist" organizations
Greek Anarchist organisations

* Anti-State Justice * Thieves in Black Please remove thieves in black from the anarchist organizations. This is an outrage. Those thieves had nothing to do with anarchism. Also add some REAL anarchist organizations and please write something about anarcho-syndicalist organizations like ESE. Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.53.53 (talk) 01:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Mporeis na prostheseis to artho oti theleis, den se empodizei kapoios :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.218.2.185 (talk) 18:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

external inks need cleanup
A lot of them are not working. I don't know procedure for this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.168.162.171 (talk) 23:03, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

NPOV issues
Questionable quotes such as "The murder of leftist teacher Nikos Temponeras by thugs of the ruling right-wing New Democracy party.." make the article a total mess with barely any references at hand.A complete rewrite might be needed.--Catlemur (talk) 21:07, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 07:41, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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NYT source
Has a little background czar  04:31, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

-_-
Kai to apo pano diko mou einai, prostheto ena petsokomeno arthro apo http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=7194 h douleia tha sinexistei mallon ayrio, pou tha prospathiso na kano to section gia to 60-90 antikimeniko kai plires kai na simpliroso ta protina kena... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.207.252.193 (talk) 01:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

This is an outrage!
Indymedia is quoted in an article concerning anarchism in greece! I guess then that Xrisi Avgi (greek neonazi organisation) will be quoted in "fascism in greece" and "immigrants in greece"? Get a grip kids, get a grip. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.212.105.207 (talk) 14:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Hoaxes Maria Pantazi, Emmanouil Dadaoglou. Not existance persons
Please delete the hoaxes about their life. They were a man-made personas from Platon Drakoulis. Please check and delete the hoaxes from W.P. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:45, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Maria_Pantazi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Emmanouil_Dadaoglou

Check also what a user wrote in the talk page.

Stop the HOAX! Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:50, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Yannis Tamtakos
I can provide a lot of sources that prove the simple thing, he was NOT an anarchist but a marxist leninist during 1936. Stop the anarchist hoaxes. He became an anarchist AFTER 1980 when he was very old. Please check and stop the anarchist hoaxes. I can provide all the names of the small parties that he was. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:42, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

This is a master thesis of a historian, later this book https://www.politeianet.gr/books/9789603690641-emmanouilidis-marios-filistor-airetikes-diadromes-79541 from a well known publication house. This book is anti-stalinist, anti KKE. He says about the parties of trotskist during the period 1936-1944, and accuses KKE(communist party). He didn't mention anything about Tamtakos was...an anarchist! In the last pages of this thesis he gives a list with the names of the members of these Trotskyist parties, and (guess!) Tamtakos name was in the list (TΑΜΤΑΚΟΣ ΓΙΑΝΝΗΣ («Βεργής»), τσαγκάρης (γενν.1912)]! Please stop the propaganda hoax! Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

OK i found the source of the hoax! Mr Apoidis is the source, again!! Here, he supposed in 1944 was a non violent (also) anarchist! What a story! Now the source of mr Apoidis in not Vassilis but Tina! Stronger claim i suppose.

The truth: 1 I can bring more than 20 RS sources in Greek. Also the newspaper of his leninist newspaper during 1943. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:53, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

In 1946 Stinas and Y. Tamptakos were in the Trotskist party, according |2]. But if Tina and Vasilis is a RS i give up for sure! Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:08, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Trotskist Historian 3

A paper from Australian that hymns Stinas

French article

Tamptakos was a Trotskist for all his active political activy. He was hidding during civil war of Greece in 1947-9 in Athens, and in 1951 he went to Australia were he didn't particate in anything political. When he returned in a very very old age(over 65), he had political affairs with young anarchists people who praised him like a political mentor with the classical cult of personallity that is very used in Greek politics even it is about anarchists. This is the story. We don't need more hoaxes. We have enough.

Mr Apoidis is not for sure a R.S. He just wrote what random people told him. Nothing more, nothing else. If anarchist want to steal working class heroes of other political movements because they feel embarassed for their heroes and what later they became, this is something that we must not let them do. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:38, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Speras and mr Apoifis's "sources"
I have his master thesis, that is probably the awarded book about Anarchy in Athens. His sources are -without a joke- a)Vassilis and this link from this propaganda anarchist site http://libcom.org/library/constantinos-speras This article of anarchists insults working class heroes like the most prominent working class hero of 1910's the centralist socialist Bulgarian Jew Avraam Benaroya and ex-communist party member in 1925, greek socialist -not communist- D.Stratis, also the ex-communist Ευάγγελος Ευαγγέλου in 1925. Everyone supposed to be a stalinist, everyone was an evil man, except the man who wrote in NAZI newspapers in 1934. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:53, 27 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Being or not RS doesnt rely upon the conclusions of the book. You might find useful to read WP:RS. Cinadon36 (talk) 06:53, 20 December 2018 (UTC)


 * read this if you know Greek, and stop the hoax contribution: Ηοργάνωση Αρχείον του Μαρξισμού (1919-1934), κοινωνικοί αγώνες, πολιτική οργάνωση, ιδεολογία και πολιτισμικές πρακτικές στα εργατικά στρώματα της μεσοπολεμικής Ελλάδας, Πανεπιστήμιο Κρήτης, Κώστας Παλούκης, διδακτορική διατριβή 2017 σελ 175. Its free.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:50, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Read it, so what? Cinadon36 (talk) 11:07, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Lies about Marinos Antypas, and Alexandros Schinas
Both for them there is a claim that they were anarchists. But this claim is from minor sources. For Antypas it is sure that he was a socialist, in a central socialist party, also member in Freemasonry. For Alexandros Schinas, the more claims are that he was something like a thug somehow mad. It can't be everyone well known hero in Greece to be an anarchist! This is propaganda not history! Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I just add one R.S that Antipas was a freemason and a socialist infuenced by socialist leader Jean Jaurès. If you want i can bring others R.S to delete the outrageous hoaxes from Wikipedia. Some anarchists claim that everyone was an anarchist but the same time they forbid to write what an anarchist may became after some years. This is the anti authoritarian way i guess :). But hopefully here is Wikipedia, not libcom or indymedia to forbid the truth like stalinists did in their regime. I have great patience, the truth will win. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:40, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

a book in English literature about Schinas claim he was sick physically and mentally. Note that the most RS in Greek says that he was part of a conspiracy against the English-friendly King. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:17, 27 November 2018 (UTC)


 * no. The most rs in Greek claim that he was a madman. See Greek article. There that in discussion all the users didn't support your POV.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:14, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Elias Petropoulos
was not an anarchist also!! he was in communist guerilla party in Thessaloniki during 1947. After the war he was member of greek left party EDA. In his late years he lived in Paris and was something like a cult persona. On the one hand he was antinationalist and on the other hand was nationalist. He was weird not an anarchist.

From communist party his memoriam : https://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=1938687 From french journal: https://www.cairn.info/revue-confluences-mediterranee-2004-2-page-191.htm Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 00:46, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Can you please tranlsate this quotation from Cairn.info, which I suppose it is a RS. "Lors de sa deuxième incarcération, il écrit en prison un dictionnaire du langage des homosexuels grecs : Kaliarda. Pour avoir écrit dans le magazine littéraire de Salonique Tram : « J’oublierais même ma patrie devant une belle femme nue », il est condamné à sept mois supplémentaires et reçoit le « titre » de pornocrate et d’anarchiste ; termes qu’il ne réfute pas, bien au contraire" Thanks.

And here is Petropoulos answer in an interview: "Κοιτάξτε, είμαι αθεϊστής, είμαι πορνογράφος, είμαι λιμπερτέν, είμαι αναρχικός κι αντιλαμβάνεστε ότι όλα όσα συμβαίνουν στην Ελλάδα τα βλέπω μ’ ένα ειρωνικό μάτι... ", translation: "Look, I am atheist, i am pornograph, i am liberten, I am anarchist and as you can realize, I deal with a little bit of irony whatever happens in Greece"Cinadon36 (talk) 07:31, 19 December 2018 (UTC)


 * hoax. petropoulos claimed that he was an anarchist.But during all his political life was a member of stalinist guerrila army, latrr a member of EDA (left party). He also claimed that he was a... pornographer. He wasn't. So provide a RS that he was an anarchist.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:38, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The source that you have presented (cairn.info) says he was an anarchist. Most of your argument is WP:OR.Cinadon36 (talk) 08:29, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * clearly this is again a false claim from you. it writes that he received the " title" of "anarchist" and "pornographer" but he wasnt none of them.

ok Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:01, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Another hoax from the same user. He wasnt an anarchist. He was a member of stalinist guerilla group in Greek civil war. Later he was member of greek left party. He was never an anarchist.

It is just another hoax contribution from the same user. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:43, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Personal attacks are not constructive you know. It is not a hoax per source given. Cinadon36 (talk) 11:04, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * It is a another hoax contribution from you, it is not personal attack. He wasn't an anarchist. The source says that he just received the title of anarchist and pornographer. So petropoulos was a pornographer? Of course not.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:54, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Man, this is personal attack from the backdoor. Calling contributions as "Oh this contribution is another hoax, silly, stupid contribution from the same user" it is like attacking the user who wrote it. Anyway, why are we discussing Petropoulos Elias since there is no mention of him in the article? Cinadon36 (talk)


 * In the bottom of the article he is in the category of anarchists. I think its another try to present someone as an anarchist, when he was in the stalinist army in 1948 and in EDA during 1965. The same time, you forbid to write that Speras and others anarchists became well known fascists. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:30, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Pure Fantasy
''During the civil war between 1944 and 1949, many[citation needed] anarchists were persecuted, exiled, and jailed along with sympathisers of the banned Greek Communist Party (CPG), as a threat to national order.[citation needed] Many died and more emigrated to America, Australia, and North Europe. Until the middle of the 1960s Anarchism remained alive[citation needed] only because of a handful of libertarian poets and writers (mostly in exile).[citation needed]''

Please friend czar  delete this section. This is just fantasy from one writer who dont even knew simple things about Greece. In Greece the last anarchist was the one who wrote in National Socialists newspapers during 1934. The next anarchist in Greece is after 1973. Please just check. If you find one name of a Greek anarchist during the period 1930-1970, i won't write again in English Wikipedia. Please let's stop the hoaxes. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

i deleted this section. If anyone provide a RS that mentions one (1) Greek anarchist during the era 1925-1970 in Greece, i will not write again in English or Greek Wikipedia. I just want one name, and i will leave for ever. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:45, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

At last after months of my calls, cinadon36 wrote and admit that anarchists in 1925-1970 was a total Hoax! Lets go for the other hoaxes.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:29, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

It was not a hoax. Anarchist movement was not apparent, that does not mean individual anarchist did not exist or were not chased down by the State and then stalinist party KKE. Cinadon36 (talk) 12:35, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I dont care about your hoax opinion. If you can just provide one single anarchist in the article from the 'many' anarchists.  Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:42, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

So for months my call for this ''During the civil war between 1944 and 1949, many anarchists were persecuted, exiled, and jailed along with sympathisers of the banned Greek Communist Party (CPG), as a threat to national order.[citation needed] Many died and more emigrated to America, Australia, and North Europe. Until the middle of the 1960s Anarchism remained alive only because of a handful of libertarian poets and writers (mostly in exile).''

was reverted.

Now a user who reverted me, admit at last that it was not true.

But there is a question for the readers of EN:WP.

What Greek anarchists became after 1920? They dissapeared? They moved in America, Australia? Can we write what a RS suggest (that they became FASCSISTS) or it is forbidden for some reasons? Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:13, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Greeks and Makhnovshchyna! or the DNA of Greeks
''In the spring of 1919, Greeks in the Mariupal region formed defense units in reaction to the events of the October Revolution, joining the Makhnovshchyna. Indeed, "twenty per cent of the Makhnovist forces were Greek and [...] according to Arshinov some of the best Makhnovist commanders were Greek".''

I can't find anything about this outrageous claim. 20% of an army in Ukraine from a small Greek minority. What a claim! This is i think another anarchist hoax from a Greek origin (or a friend of a publisher with Greek origin ;)) write to prove that his native blood was always with ...anarchism and with revolt! I think that is not a R.S sources and claims from Libcom, but i am not for sure. Please  czar  tell me your opinion about this. Ok Greek fascists nowdays says that Greeks were always the victims and they were always great fighters, so Greek anarchists says that Greeks they were always with the revolt and with anarchism. Maybe the Greek DNA has something in it and we are always the same :). I think that we must leave the DNA theories about Greeks, cause have 2018 not 1818. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:21, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Here is some info:


 * Chop V. N. in Worldcat.org

The largest of the local insurgent groups was M. Davidov’s regiment which counted as many as 3,000 men and had cavalry. There were many Greeks in it from the town of Stary Ignativits, although this was not a Greek but rather a Georgian village. In Davidov’s regiment a separate Greek battalion was formed, under the command of Ivan Chuarov, whose name has already been mentioned [2. – p. 190]. But soon the situation changed. In February 1919, in accordance with the Makhnovist command, most of the Greek detachments were amalgamated. The newly created formation already had as many as 1,500 partisans. On February 21 1919 the commander of the army group oriented towards Kharkov (later the 2nd Ukrainian Army), A. Skachko, issued an order for the creation of the three-brigade First Zadniprovsky Division, made up of nine regiments [7. – p. 150]. The Third Brigade in this division was made up of Batko Makhno’s units, and the 9th Regiment (the third in the Third Brigade) was the Greek Regiment under the command of V. Tokhtamish, who was introduced as the regimental commander by P. Dybenko at Pologi Station [8. – p. 90]


 * Vlasis Agltzides:«Όταν οι Έλληνες κομμουνιστές πήραν την εξουσία» "When Greek Communists took power"."[Marxist thought]" volume 8. Full text here in greek. It specifically claims:"Οι Έλληνες αποτελούσαν περίπου το 20% των δυνάμεων του Μάχνο (Makhnovschina)." translating: "Greeks were 20% of Makhno's fighters"

Is that enough?Cinadon36 (talk) 08:55, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Who is Chop in the first place? Agtzides claims are between others hoaxes that Kemal had cooperation with...king of Greece etc! Greek historians have heavily criticized Agtzides about even the facts that he described in his work! So i think it is not enough. if Chop is someone with prestige it's ok for meΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:34, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Can you provide a cited reference supporting your opinion on Agtzides? Cinadon36 (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * This is your problem to provide a cited reference of agtzidis for his work about .... Maxno's army! But here https://chronos.fairead.net/liakos-genoktonia-kai-viopolitiki you can see the titles of the most prominent greek historians against agtzides..even about the facts (similar to that Kemal and Greek kings were in an alliance!!!) that he describes!! If you can search i suppose you can find the full text.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:02, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Agtzides's article is a RS a)per publisher and b)he is a notable historian focusing in the greeks during the Soviet era.(Link to chronos mag does not prove anything.)Cinadon36 (talk) 11:14, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Notable historian!! What a claim. He is a mathematician with a PhD in history and he is heavily critised from all the historians like Liakos or Baltsiotis about the facts. But ok do your work. I will be back in this. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:17, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Having a PhD in history makes him a historian. He has published many books. If other historians disagree with him, it does not mean that his notability gets diminished, quite the contrary. Cinadon36 (talk) 11:37, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Chop as a source is a R.S. It's a R.S this source. I found his CV. But his name is in Russian(Ukrainian?) a little different. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:05, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Adding text without consensus

 * Is wp:stonewalling a way to bypass the consensus building approach that is fundamental to WP policy? The rejection of the added text was based on policy ground and was not addressed in the talk page.Cinadon36 (talk) 09:06, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Let's discuss this text in . Per BRD, the article should be restored to its default state (without the recently added text) while the proposed edit is under discussion. czar  11:25, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Dissertations
Have the aforementioned dissertations been subsequently published/edited by independent publishers? Per WP:SCHOLARSHIP, unpublished dissertations/theses should only be used sparingly. czar 02:24, 3 January 2019 (UTC) Paloukis completed and awaraded phd thesis was founded from www.iky.gr/ and supervised from the most prominent Greek historians. We can use phds with care as politics of WP suggest. What is your objection? Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:55, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Clearly Paloukis thesis falls short to support such a claim. I will remove it. Cinadon36 (talk) 10:00, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, reverted my edit, claiming there is no consensus. His addition was only inserted yesterday, so he has the burden to establish consensus. Paloukis work is about archeiomarxism, his thesis was not published by a third party, the particular paragraph is about anarchosyndicalism in Europe (not in greece), hence must be removed Cinadon36 (talk) 10:15, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Read more carefully, he described what happened to anarchists in Greece. The politics of WP are Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate, and which are publicly available (most via interlibrary loan or from Proquest), can be used but care should be exercised, as they are often, in part, primary sources. Some of them will have gone through a process of academic peer reviewing, of varying levels of rigor, but some will not. If possible, use theses that have been cited in the literature; supervised by recognized specialists in the field; or reviewed by third parties. Dissertations in progress have not been vetted and are not regarded as published and are thus not reliable sources as a rule. Some theses are later published in the form of scholarly monographs or peer reviewed articles, and, if available, these are usually preferable to the original thesis as sources. Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence.
 * So i think that you are saying excuses in the same time that you were reverting my edits and leave the things that were obvious not true, and not even cited such as this outrageous claim that are a joke "During the civil war between 1944 and 1949, many[citation needed] anarchists were persecuted, exiled, and jailed along with sympathisers of the banned Greek Communist Party (CPG), as a threat to national order.[citation needed] Many died and more emigrated to America, Australia, and North Europe. Until the middle of the 1960s Anarchism remained alive only because of a handful of libertarian poets and writers (mostly in exile)." etc. So maybe your main promblem is to forbid to write what anarchism in Greece became after 1920, and the same time to do anarchist friendly propaganda. Here is not libcom, or indymedia. Here is WP, all the opinions must be welcomed here, not what you like only.  Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:33, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Once more, not accepting fringe opinions, is not "forbidding". It is sticking to WP policies. 13:21, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Fringe opinions were what you were defending for months about many anarchists who fought against the state and such fairy tales. Anarchists became fascists in Greece, if u don't like it please be free to provide a source what Speras or fanourakis were during 1925! Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:35, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * A)When did I "defend" a fringe opinion? (provide diff please) B)"Anarchists becaming fascists in Greece" is just your POV. You need to provide a RS to support such a claim, it is your burden, not mine. C)Focus on the issue we are discussing, not other users.Cinadon36 (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * A. Here you defend outrageous claim, NOT TRUE without any citation . Ok, at last after months you admit the truth! Bravo for that! B)It's Paloukis (historian) view, not mine. I don't want anything else, but at last Wikipedia has his opinion with ALL the others sources you will add. Nothing more. I hope here we can add everything, we are not in a stalinist state. C. Of course, sorry about that. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:39, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * A)I can see citation on that edit. Can't you? B)Paloukis thesis is not a RS and more to that, it is not about Anarchism, it is about archeiomarxism. Cinadon36 (talk) 17:05, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * No i can't see. I am speaking about the last paragraph, the outrageous paragraph, that at last you admit that was NOT TRUE and at last you delete it! For months you defended something without a citation, that was a totally joke--> During the civil war between 1944 and 1949, many anarchists were persecuted, exiled, and jailed along with sympathisers of the banned Greek Communist Party. B)Paloukis thesis, and work is for Greek working class anti-KKE movement. He wrote about anarchists in Greeece for many pages. Ok, i am sorry now, but i think that you just pick another excuse to forbid the citation, the same time that in A. you were defending something without any citation. Please, leave all the opinions, not ceshsorship in EN:WP. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:20, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * A)I do not think it is a lie but I didnt had any sources to verify it. KKE killed was hostile towards anarchists and we know what that means. But anyway, this is not a phorum. B)No RS, no text. Extraordinary claims need good sources. 18:53, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * So you admit that you revert me based on your opinion the same time that you didn't had any sources! I think this is a brave confession from you, that you admit that you delete/revert based on your what you think!! Please the other users say something! Because if Cinadon36 thinks something else, he will revert what he don't like! B)I suppose now you don't think it is a RS. But for sure it's not a forum, to write your thinkings but WP and a awarded Phd is considered welcome here. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:16, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Ph.D. theses can be used as sources on wikipedia. I see no issue here. Khirurg (talk) 16:17, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Dear friend Khirurg, i think that they found excuses when they don't like something. It is a anarchist-friendly POV article. par examble Marinos Antypas supposed that he was an anarchist, when he was a freemason and central socialist, elias petropoulos supposed he was an anarchist when he was a guerilla stalinsist fighter, they wrote for not existed persons like Maria_Pantazi and Emmanouil Dadaoglou. They claim that Yannis Tamtakos a participant of 4th in 1948 was an anarchist in 1930!!! It is somehow an anarchist fairy tale, with everything that a fairy tale has. The good (anarchists), the bad (state) and the ungly (stalinists). Ok. But it is time to delete the NOT TRUE things. Please help, cause i see that anarchist friendly users don't like the anti-authotarian way. I suggest that we can leave all the opinions of the historians, the opinion that say anarchists became fascists, and the opinion that say that they went to exile, or the state chased them. Why to do censhorship in historians opinions?  Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:39, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I brought this up not to cleanse the article of dissertations but because thesis claims should be weighted against material that has actually been published. Dissertations are often published, so yes, better to cite directly those versions of the material whenever possible. Do keep in mind, however, that if a dissertation makes a novel claim, exceptional claims require exceptional proof. Even if the dissertations is right, we don't overcompensate by using it to outweigh what has been published. If and when those novel claims are validated and repeated by peers (printed in journals, written in edited books) can we reflect that wider acceptance in the article. czar  03:18, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


 * PhD awarded thesis i think are welcome here. What is exceptional opinion? Please read Wikipedia article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_syndicalism#Revolutionary_syndicalism_to_national_syndicalism I think it basic knowledge about the history of syndicalism in Europe. But for months existed the NOT TRUE opinion about many anarchists during 30s and 40s in Greece. Why then you didn't delete the uncited material as i asked for months? Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:36, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * There is a discussion above about removing the unsourced text. In that section, I told you I did not receive your November notification. I'm happy to remove the text if no one is actively working to source it.
 * On my talk page, you wrote, "Soon or later, everyone will be informed that anarchists in Greece became well know Fascists and Axis collaborators." I don't know if you're referring to just Speras or some larger conspiracy, but if the latter, that strong claim will require sources that are equally strong. The Google translation of Paloukis's Η οργάνωση Αρχείον του Μαρξισμού (1919-1934) is unreadable, so it's hard for me to determine how well that paper (dissertation?) supports your claim. In general, however, I wouldn't base such a broad claim on a dissertation but would wait to see it validated in an edited, print edition.  czar  14:01, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I am not into conspiracies, i was never into that. It is just a simple pov pushing/deleting for things that you don't like to read. Anarchist history in wp is based on anarchist historians, but this is another topic. If you don't know to read Greek you can ask for translation from many users. In my opinion its a simple thing, its not such broad claim. What happened to anarchists of Greece after 1920? For so many years English Wikipedia said that they were executed like Spain(!!) based on fairy tales. Now, when we have a awarded phd we try to find excuses for delete it. Its sad.I suggest to write :'Kostas Paloukis a historian in his phd suggest that...:'. I seek for your acceptance. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


 * POV-pushing is trying to add text supported by non-RS. This article is based on RS and should stay that way. If it is not a "broad claim" (supposing you mean "extraordinary claim", then you can find it at other (real) RS. Awarded or not, has no citations at all. Hence, no RS, no text in WP. Cinadon36 (talk) 18:34, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


 * There are lots of examples of individuals who turned from left- to right-wing ideologies across many cultures. If your claim is that Greek anarchists became Fascist/Axis collaborators en masse, that would require an authoritative citation. If your claim is that individual Greek anarchists became Fascist/Axis collaborators, that can be noted in each individual's respective article, unless some source makes a point of labeling a larger trend. The gist is that we shouldn't presume trends from single source citations that only pertain to one individual. (The quality of the source needs to be proportional to the magnitude of the claim.) I think this dissertation credibility thread has run its course, though. I'll add to the Paloukis thread above. czar  19:32, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I have a disk failure in my p.c and i couldn't write properly for that reason. Sadly i now see, that without my answer you just revert my citation to delete what you don't like. So for months you left the such NOT TRUE things about Greek anarchists that went to exiles(!!!) when they were just fascists, but now you delete at once my contribution. I can't stand such way. But ok, i will answer cause i want the other users to realize what anarchist-friendly users do in Wikipedia (pov pushing). In Greece it is well known that a fraction of Communist Party was anarchosyndicalists, That fraction became dictatorsphip collaborators in 1925 with the alliance of socialist fractions, and we can provide citations about that. But ok. Here we can't write anything that isn't 100% anarchist friendly. So let's leave that Yannis Tamtakos was an anarchist in 1936, when he was a member of 4th international in 1948, let's say about Speras who was a fascist, that he was an prominent anarchist etc. It is very sad the situation in english Wikipedia.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:19, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Cleanup
Apologies, I didn't receive those two notifications/pings above. Not sure why. Anyway, happened to come across this talk page anyway because of its cleanup tags. Large portions of the article, if no sources are forthcoming, need to be gutted. If you have the heart to make a good faith attempt to source its contents, go for it. If the contents cannot be sourced, remove the sections and someone can always restore from the page history. If you have any recommendations for general histories of Greek anarchism that we could use to rebuild this article, by all means suggest them. Otherwise the goal is to get the article into a readable and verifiable state before worrying about resuscitating its full scope. czar 05:06, 30 December 2018 (UTC)


 * the article is only for delete.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:39, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Clearly notable IMHO, but if you feel otherwise, here is the relevant page.Cinadon36 (talk) 08:33, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Not sure if that was a serious suggestion, but I don't think nominating the article for deletion is productive, as anarchism in Greece is the subject of many scholarly articles.
 * Any opposition to what I proposed—removing the uncited text? You should feel free to restore the text once it can be reliably cited. Older revisions might even have sourcing—I haven't dug too deep into the article history. czar  03:21, 5 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I recently found/added this source. I don't see any way around our current draft's abysmal sourcing, so my recommendation would be to re-write from a summative source such as the one above and can build from there. Anyone interested in taking a stab, or should I? czar  17:06, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I recently found/added this source. I don't see any way around our current draft's abysmal sourcing, so my recommendation would be to re-write from a summative source such as the one above and can build from there. Anyone interested in taking a stab, or should I? czar  17:06, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Paloukis
Anarhists and Fascism. Can we write all the opinions in EN:WP or only anarchists friendly sources are welcome here?

During the era 1920-1950. In Greece is well known that the anarchists of 1918 became fascists. But in EN:WP it is difficult to write it.

In Greek from a Greek PHD of 2017 Δεν είναι ίσως λοιπόν σύμπτωση ότι η Εθνική Σημαία και το Εθνικοσοσιαλιστικό Κόμμα του Μερκούρη στο οποίο συμμετέχει ο Σπέρας προπαγάνδιζαν ανοιχτά μια μορφή κορπορατίστικου κοινοβουλευτισμού.264 Με λίγα λόγια η μετάβαση των αναρχοσυνδικαλιστών στην συντήρηση και η πορεία τους προς τον φασισμό, αλλά κυρίως η αντίδρασή τους απέναντι στον μπολσεβικισμό συνδέεται ακριβώς με την αντίθεση συντεχνιασμού/μοντερνισμού. Μέσα από αυτό το πρίσμα της συνεργασίας των τάξεων θα πρέπει οι Σπέρας-Φανουράκης να επέλεξαν να ενταχθούν στον «Συνασπισμό των Εργαζόμενων Τάξεων» προκαλώντας την διάσπαση του ΑΕΚ

English translation:in a nutshell, the anarcho-syndicalists' transition to conservation and their progress towards fascism, but especially their reaction to Bolshevism is linked precisely with the opposition of the guild / modernism

Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:18, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Ofcourse you can, in a WP:due manner. You have added it in a separate section, which is wrong. Plus, more RS are needed for such a strong claim.Cinadon36 (talk) 13:27, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Please, Αντικαθεστωτικός, respect WP:BRD and self revert your edit until a consensus is established. Cinadon36 (talk) 13:39, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

So what is again your objection? Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:46, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

This time my objection is that your edit does not properly summarize Poulakis view. Poulakis describes the ideological trajectory of European anarchosyndicalists towards corporatism and tries to explain it utilizing the antithesis between modernism and syndicalism.Cinadon36 (talk) 18:18, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi, I found your username at Translators_available—would you be able to help? My Google translation of the above paragraph is unreadable. Could you help us paraphrase this paragraph appropriately for the article? czar  14:11, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi, a mostly verbatim translation would be: "It is therefore probably not a coincidence that 'National Flag' and Merkouris' National-socialist Party, in which Speras participates, openly propagandised a form of corporatist parliamentarianism.264 Briefly, the transition of the anarchosyndicalists to conservatism and their march towards fascism, but mostly their reaction against bolshevism, is connected precisely with the dichotomy of corporatism/modernism. Speras and Fanourakis must have elected to join the 'Coalition of Working Classes' through this prism of class cooperation, causing the break-up of AEK." I am not really versed in the intricacies of these ideologies or the events described here, so I would prefer not to summarize/paraphrase. My proposal would be to include this quote in translation, with the original Greek text in the reference for verification. Constantine  ✍  14:28, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * your translation has a little mistake! . My fault. Sorry.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 22:41, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

 Kostas Paloukis suggests that Greek Anarcho-syndicalists in their fight against Bolshevism, they moved in a more conservative way and they become unionists and few of them ended in Fascist parties.
 * Perhaps I'm just missing more from Paloukis. Per the thread below, what else does he say to definitively answer, "What happened to anarchists of Greece after 1920?" czar  19:32, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm still interested in an answer to the above question but in the meantime let's discuss this edit rather than edit warring:


 * 1) This sentence was recently added. Per BRD, if its addition is contested, and it is, the article should default to the status quo, with the sentence removed until a consensus reached on the talk page.
 * 2) Cplakidas's above translation doesn't appear to support what this sentence claims. It is unclear whether Paloukis is referring to a specific, previously discussed anarcho-syndicalists (Speras and Fanourakis?) or as the added text implies, all Greek anarcho-syndicalists. It either requires more context, a longer quote from the source, or to be rephrased to match the quote's contents.
 * Please, let's find a mutually satisfactory phrasing before anyone restores this text to the article. czar  11:23, 8 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Paloukis, says and it is obvious that ALL the anarchocommunists of Greece (a.k.a few people that were before involved in a fraction in KKE party) went to AEK, and after then moved to Fascism. It is obvious that you may confuse Spain with Greece. In Greece anarchism during 1920 was a tottaly dead ideology, and so very few people like Speras, Fanourakis etc remained as anarchosyndicalists and after the became fascists influnced by George Sorel. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:30, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
 * If this is what Paloukis says, all you need to do is provide the quotes. The one you provided above does not, by itself, say what you just wrote. What you propose is an exceptional claim, so the sourcing/proof needs to be proportionately exceptional. czar  14:06, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

User talk:Czar Finally, can i add what Paloukis suggest (i.e that anarchists became syndicalists ...and some of them fascists) ? Or the presecution of KKE of 1944 during Dekemvriana could explain what happened in...1925 and anarchists disapperead for 4(!) decades from Greece. The previous theory was that they went to ...exiles(!!!) by the state(!!!). Now the new theory is that KKE of Pandelis Pouliopoulos, Yanis Kordatos, Avraam Benaroya presecuted the anarchists!!! Just for the history KKE became a stalinist party in 1931.

Can we write the other view, of an uptodate historian that anarchism in became like the anarchism of Sorel in France or it is not allowed ? Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:56, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
 * , whenever you want to add a claim, alongside each claim I recommend adding the best possible reliable source. If that source is hard to find or inaccessible, please provide the full quote from each source. If that quote is in Greek or another non-English language, adding a translation will likely be more helpful than me using Google Translate on my own.
 * So re: Paloukis, the quote I cited above doesn't say "that anarchists became syndicalists ...and some of them fascists", so you would need to expand that Paloukis quote so we can see where, exactly, the author says that.  czar 16:50, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * This is in my POV exactly Paloukis's claim. Here is his phd. I can'τ do anything else to help me. Paloukis is speaking general about Europe and he says that in Greece Speras & Fanourakis became something. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:41, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Hmm. I'm unable to copy/paste text from that PDF, so I can't translate it. czar  18:21, 16 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Hmmmm, Paloukis is citing Rizospastis, can't sort out the date though. Anyway, too much dust about a triviality (whether Speras ended being a fascist- this is weasel talk: the narrative is proposed by KKE which murdered Speras during Nazi Occupation. It leads us far outside of the scope of the article. It is micro-history- we should strive to explain the big picture. Speras is notable for Serifos Strike and nothing more). Even if we accept Paloukis as a RS in context (which is not) it is clear that Speras and Fanourakis weren't anarchosyndicalists, since they were in favour of parliamentary participation. Seems to me that Paloukis is trying to explain the alleged transition of A/Syndicalism to fascism using a philosophical explanation. Paloukis's claim is that A/Syndicalism is anti-modernist, hence A/Syndicalists rejected Bolshevikism (which was a modern movement). IMHO, it is a fringe hypothesis (not well cited as well) and Paloukis is using Speras example to make a broader claim (he is merely mentioning Speras, he is not examing Speras trajectory). If someone wants to insert text that suggests that Speras (or anarchists) were Nazi collaborators, he must find a stronger source. Cinadon36 (talk) 18:48, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * In any event, Cplakidas's translation does not appear to support the boxed claim above so yeah, this Paloukis source is insufficient. And ideally there's a source more definitive than a Ph.D. dissertation for such a bold claim.
 * This has been a... very interesting discussion. Biggest realization for me has been that the sourcing is atrocious and that's even before the language barrier. Maybe it's time for Αντικαθεστωτικός to write the definitive book? :) czar  19:07, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * czar Paloukis is an antistalinist, antiKKE historian, in a leftist party Antarsya. He is well known historian with publications in Major Greek publications, in the Greece of crisis, and his phd will be publiced in English in a well known English publication. Paloukis is well known for Speras, cause in the first place he supported the false statement that Speras was killed because he was an anarchist/socialist. Please just read what he wrote in 2009 Στις 14 Σεπτεμβρίου 1943, το ΚΚΕ και ο ΕΛΑΣ θα θυμηθούν τον Σπέρα και θα τον καλέσουν σε συνάντηση… Σε αυτή τη συνάντηση θα τον εκτελέσουν/ . He supported then that KKE killed Speras cause..Stalinists remembered Speras behavior during 1922. He just changed his view cause he found new proofs. He also has publiced various things about stalinist violence against leftist opposition in Greece. In Greek article of Speras, only user Cinadon36 supported this view. ALL the other users (4 + me) supported the other view. I don't need to publiced any book for something so obvious. For the specific translation, i don't insist. But i propose to write something about the most prominent anarchists of Greece. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 20:59, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Is Speras relevant here? The claim is that (paraphrased) Greek anarcho-syndicalists [generally] ... became more conservative, some becoming unionists or fascists. The source doesn't seem to support that generalized claim, but perhaps I'm missing something. How is "unionism" defined in this translation? What is the "Coalition of Working Classes" and AEK? czar  22:58, 16 February 2019 (UTC)


 * no my wrong. i read it again more carefully this time. Paloukis is not mentioned that all greek anarchists became fascists. it is synthesis from me cause fanourakis and speras was the greek anarchism. i apologize.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 07:28, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Resolved

Wrong citation page
1 and i am accused about vandalism! This page says about 1990. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:11, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Source:"Aside from the immense brutalities of WWII and Nazi occupation, after the war these political divisions culminated in a bitter civil war (Thomopoulos, 2011, p.141). Rumours of Stalinists murdering anarchists during the civil war exacerbated an environment of anarchist inactivity"
 * Text in the article: "There have been rumours that KKE during the civil war were assassinating political opponents"


 * Seems it verifies the text. Cinadon36 (talk) 12:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * First, it was wrong page, as i said before. It wasn't page 117 but -now i found it- page 110. I can't search for hours in a phd thesis to find the correct page! You have to present the right pages, not to present wrong page.


 * second, Apoifis is speaking about rumors(!) of anarchists (tell me one anarchist during 1944 and i will delete my account in EN/GR Wikipedia). This is for sure a huge joke!  Apoifis is based in rumors, and what random people told him in Exarcheia. For sure this article it can't be based on rumors!  Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:27, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Ok, I placed the number of the pdf reader, not of the article, my mistake. Secondly, Apoifis says that there have been rumours, the article says likewise. Cinadon36 (talk) 12:48, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * For this period of Greek Civil war there are more than 100.000 books in Greek/English books, but the article of English Wikipedia is based on rumors about...anarchists ..that the previous citation discussed that anarchists dissapeared since 1920. Where anarchists were during 1920-1940? Can we write it? Cause it very well known that Greek anarchists became fascists. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:16, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * No, the article of WP is based on RS.Cinadon36 (talk) 09:27, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

resolved

Anarchists in the polytechnic uprising?
article says: '' Anarchists painted "Down with Authority" and "People Revolt" on the front gates of the Polytechnic. Anarchists slogans overshadowed leftist ones''

but the source (Vradis, A., & Dalakoglou, D. K. (2009). Anarchism, Greece. The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest, ) says : ''During and immediately after the country’s military dictatorship (1967–74) the anarchist movement resurged – largely thanks to popular resistance to the regime and widening political polarization within the country. Anti-dictatorship resistance reached its peak with the Technical University of Athens student uprising of November 17, 1973. While the outlawed left-wing parties largely failed to influence the uprising to any significant extent, some of the slogans – “Downwith Authority” and “People Revolt” – had anarchist connotations'

The sloganss were from small maoistics parties like EKKE. They were 100% communists, stalinists and maoists, and no connection to anarchism. Anarchists during 1973 uprsing was nothing.

This article is about to hymn anarchism, thats why is always about anarchists who did that, and the other, but i think (and i think i prove it) its simple advertise from new anarchists Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:45, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Source:" During and immediately after the country’s military dictatorship (1967–74) the anarchist movement resurged – largely thanks to popular resistance to the regime and widening political polarization within the country. Anti-dictatorship resistance reached its peak with the Technical University of Athens student uprising of November 17, 1973. While the outlawed left-wing parties largely failed to influence the uprising to any significant extent, some of the slogans – “Down with Authority” and “People Revolt” – had anarchist connotations."


 * One more thing. Telling every now and the of propaganda article, hymn etc, it is a way of en:WP:POVRAILROAD. It is a form of bullying, you should known. Cinadon36 (talk) 15:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * 2nd time: The source doesnt mention any anarchists who painted "Down with Authority" and "People Revolt" on the front gates of the Polytechnic This is purely synthesis. see https://translate.google.gr/#view=home&op=translate&sl=en&tl=el&text=connotation . Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:09, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * If you have to suggest something better than "Anarchist slogans such as "Down with Authority" and "People Revolt" were painted on the front gates of the Polytechnic and left-wingers were overshadowed.[5]", pleas go ahead. Cinadon36 (talk) 16:15, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I suggest to delete them. Nothing is much better than a false edit. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:31, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * It illustrates the main argument of the Author (RS). I say we keep it or improve it. Cinadon36 (talk) 16:40, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
 * in my POV (i change the title) it is for sure a Falsification of the citation. But let's see what others users might say. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 16:43, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

let's see what the other citation suggest for 1973 uprising. (it's from The City Is Ours: Squatting and Autonomous Movements in Europe from the 1970s to the Present, an anarchist author) : ''The occupation of the Polytechnic and of other universities was not organised by party-activists, but by a widespread coalition of other left-wing currents. This alliance ranged from Leninists of all types (Trotskyists, Maoists, etc.) to libertarian socialists. Together, they played a crucial role in organising mass-resistance against military dictatorship. But just as before the war, counter-culture played an important role uniting the activists from different political currents. ''

So and this author suggests that anarchists didn't exist in this uprising. (Maybe there were 5-6 persons anarchists, but this is my original research, and don't count on it).

So why the Wikipedia article wrote ''Anarchists painted "Down with Authority" and "People Revolt" on the front gates of the Polytechnic. Anarchists slogans overshadowed leftist ones'' when as all the used citations from anarchists authors suggests that anarchists didn't exist in 1973 uprising?

For sure i can bring a lot of citations in the same mood. But i think we must face at first some things. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:47, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The article does not suggest that anarchist did not participate. It talks about libertarian socialists which is a form of an anti-authoritarian anarchist current. What is more important, is that the author talks about the anarchistic way the occupation of Polytechnic was formed. (spontaneously, without formal parties). What is far more important, to answer your question "why the Wikipedia article wrote...", it is because a RS that deals with the history of anarchism in Greece is saying so.Cinadon36 (talk) 18:05, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The first citation says that some slogans during 1973 revolt in Athens had only anarchist connotations, it doesn't mention any anarchists. The second citation says everyone political party/movement/group who took part in 1973 revolt in Athens but also doesn't mention any anarchists. Where are the anarchists in 1973 according these anarchists authors/citations? I can't find them. Maybe i don't know good English as i admit. Maybe another user can give his opinion. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:14, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The term libertarian socialism is used interchangable with the term anarchism. You might enjoy reading some Chomsky (introduction) or the relevant WP article.Cinadon36 (talk) 09:06, 14 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Libertarian socialism is not anarchism, but include anarchism. i will ask third opinion. i hope you agree Bout that. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:12, 14 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Of course I do. Cinadon36 (talk) 09:13, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

On anarchists being present in the Polytechnique uprising, here:. I have also added some more text in the article. You might want to have a look. Cinadon36 (talk) 11:05, 14 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Does this edit work? Vradis/Dalakoglou don't explicitly say that the Polytechnic uprising demonstrators were anarchists, but they say that the uprising was influential in anarchism's resurgence. Other sources may add additional detail. Also agreed that if the source doesn't mention "front gates", "painted", neither should we. (If additional sources add that detail, feel free to cite/add them!) czar  20:30, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you czar . Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 20:33, 16 February 2019 (UTC)


 * , anarchists have been present in the Polytechnic uprising since day 1 (14th of November). See for example Kotea 2013 p21 "The causes of extremism are connected to the fact that among the rebels there was a dynamic minority of leftists and anarchists, who on the first day (November the 14th) took the initiative in sitting in at Polytechnio;" Kornetis 2013 (Childredn of the Dictatorship) talks about anarchists among the students. (ie pp 254-261). Anarchists were present at the uprising. Cinadon36 (talk) 07:27, 17 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Sounds good (I don't know the specifics—just that the connection wasn't explicit in the Vradis/Dalakoglou source) czar  15:03, 17 February 2019 (UTC)


 * So now we known the name of the most prominent anarchist (Χρήστος Κωνσταντινίδης) during 14/12/1973. Maybe there were a group of 5-6 (if you wish let'suppose 20) others anarchists in the first group of 300 persons who stayed in Polytechneio the first day. That was their power. I think the article now sounds as they were something more important IMHO. Also i have put a but it was reverted by the other user. Please if you have time check it. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:49, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
 * How's this? I expanded from Kotea. czar  16:56, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
 * i think it is fine. thanks againΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:26, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

resolved

Sotros

 * The Greek Speaking Anarchist and Revolutionary Movement (1830–1940) Writings for a History, James Sotros. No God-No Masters, December 2004

Anyone know where I can find this source? It's not in WorldCat and the only hits are for copies of the Wikipedia article. I'm not familiar with its press either. czar 20:38, 16 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I think it was a pdf that the author uploaded in various anarchist-friendly webpages. Perhaps it was also in here. I am not sure. Now i think he publiced his book in a self publication in Greek. I think the allias of his real name is Sotros. As i said in the first place: He admited the facts about the well known anarchist. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 21:27, 16 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Well, whatever this citation is, I can't easily find it, so I wouldn't expect a reader to easily find it either. I've removed it. czar  22:45, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Apoifis in his phd page 245 he found the citation . Maybe it was a self publiced book in Australia (Sotros was in Australia as Apoifis). In my opinion: it was just a pdf. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 22:50, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

resolved

Marfin incident
I was reverted per Synthesis&vague. May anyone else suggest another better phrase instead this :''Marfin Bank on central Stadiou Street during a protest rally, was burned and 3 people died[41]. That was a turning point[42] and for Greek anarchism.[43][44][45]''? Thanx in advanse.


 * BBC:But the deaths are going to make the protesters pause. And there is going to be a backlash against the anarchists who are going to be the main suspects in this.


 * Spreading Protest: Social Movements in Times of Crisis: provoking a period of a soul-searching and relative absense of anarchists from the movement


 * [We are an image from the future’ Reading back the Athens 2008 riots: The ‘Marfin events’ as they have been known since marked a turning point not only in the attendance and frequency of protests which dropped significantly, but also in the ideological legitimacy that the anarchist movement enjoyed until that `moment.]


 * Opinions of various anarchists: 1,2 3


 * Poster of anarchists (who blame the anarchism) for the 3 deads. I suggest to add this picture in the article: no justification, no tolerance from the movement(s)

I can bring more if you wish.

Please share with me in the first place your thoughts.

Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:31, 23 February 2019 (UTC)


 * How's this?
 * I used the best sources from that bunch. Porta's generalization is weak, since it only cites a single person, and the Vasilaki source says the Marfin events took place in 2012, not 2010, so hoping that's just a typo and not an indicator of bigger reliability issues. Plenty more to expand from that Vasilaki source.
 * Not much we can do with that BBC reporter—if the person on the scene said there would be a backlash against anarchists, we should be able to paraphrase publications writing about that backlash, not the BBC's prediction of one. I don't think the anarchist opinion sources would add more than the above secondary sources provide. Is the poster you want to add available under a free use license? czar  17:03, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * thank you again for your time. It is wonderfull work. Leave it as it is. The poster maybe if the article is expanded we can use it then. (I don't know if it's free licence, but i guess it is. It is from the same group with this photo) Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 17:14, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Great—thanks! re: the poster, we'd have to determine the original author/creator and date of publication to determine the copyright status. If you have that, I can look into it. czar  17:37, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

I removed the first edit on Marfin as it was badly written, Synthesis and it was not making any sense, to be honest. I removed the edit by Czar as well, as it is not certain that anarchist were behind the firebombing of the building. To make such a strong claim, one needs to have a piece of stronger evidence. Cinadon36 (talk) 17:49, 23 February 2019 (UTC)


 * BBC says that anarchist were " to be the main suspects in this."
 * Spreading Protest: Social Movements in Times of Crisis--->does not actually verifies that anarchist were responsible for the firebombing.
 * Vasilaki->the article is not about Marfin incidence. Vasilaki merely mentions marfin incidence, does not discuss it in detail.
 * Opinions by anarchists --> Not RS.
 * Poster of anarchists--->Not RS either.

So, as the saying says, many ripped bags, carry as much water as one ripped bag. WP Voice can not be that "anarchists did it". Cinadon36 (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree that the source could be stronger in attributing the firebombing to anarchists, but whether they did it is besides the main point that the event ultimately discouraged anti-austerity protest and the affinity for the anarchist movement. Is that not fair, based on the source? Vasilaki does not need to discuss the event in any greater detail as long as the publication is considered reliable for its editorial process. czar  18:23, 23 February 2019 (UTC)


 * It is not important who was responsible for the firebombing. Maybe it was a conspiracy, or something else. It doesn't matters. The important thing is that a)anarchism had a turning point. b) anti-austority protests had a turning point. In my first edit i didn't mention at all who was the the responsible for the killings. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 18:27, 23 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Your last edit is much better. Thanks.Cinadon36 (talk) 20:04, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

resolved