Talk:Anatolian Shepherd/Archive 1

Leopard conservation
I saw a program on South African TV yesterday showing how these dogs are being used to protect livestock (sheep) against attacks by leopards. It is part of a leopard conservation program which aims at preserving the lives of leopards by dissuading them from attacking farmers' sheep (and thereby removing the major motivation for farmers to kill the leopards). If I can get some references I will supply them. Peashy 12:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I realize it's been quite a while since this was posted, however, my family breeds Anatolians and I have heard this as well, from a reputable and seasoned breeder. My folks have a great deal of literature on the breed, given that they raise them; I'll be sure to check through their library the next time I visit them. Hopefully I'll be able to produce that reference. :) HamatoKameko 19:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * In terms of that they are also used for cheetah conservation. Dr Laurie Marker of the Cheetah Conservation Fund breeds them. They are then given to the farmers to protect livestock from cheetah attacks, therefore preventing the farmers from killing cheetahs that have attacked their animals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saoirsemoore (talk • contribs) 20:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

disambiguation
Karabash is also a city in russia, the most polluted in the world

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&q=karabash+polluted+%22in+the+world%22&btnG=Search


 * Done; changing Karabash to a disambiguation page. Elf | Talk 03:53, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Kangal --> Anatolian Shepherd Dog
 * kangal is the same dog as Anatolian Shepherd Dog
 * greatings from germany Benutzer:caronna


 * See response in Talk:Kangal Dog. Elf | Talk 16:42, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

According to some of the material I've read, Anatolians are a result of crossing Akbash and Karabash dogs indiscriminately under the conception that the two are basically the same breed (different color forms) as opposed to different breeds. That wouldn't make them the same as Karabash dogs; it would make them a melding of two breeds.

Include this?Mythicaldog 15:12, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure if you can cite a reference. Elf | Talk 16:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The karabash in the picture does not have the points and curly tail that is the trademark of the Kangal dog. I also removed "Kangal Dog" from the alternitive names. Wwe have an article called that, there was no need to put it as an alternitive name. skorpion 07:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

actually, (as the owner of an anatolian mix i know too much about this!) Kangal dogs ARE anatolian shepherds. So are Akbash and Karabash dogs. They ALL are. Anatolian Shepherd is the name that the AKC has lumped a bunch of dogs under, although they do vary slightly. They are all from the same region (Anatolia) in Turkey, so the AKC lumped them together. I am adding Kangal to the list of names again, because it is a valid alternate name. Sorry. check with the Turkish consulate if you disagree. :) But it is very confusing, i will admit. Olayak

I've removed Kangal from the alternative names list. They are absolutely not the same dog. Kangal (and, for that matter, Akbash) dogs are a genetically distinct phenotype, as shown by ALTUNOK, KOBAN, CHIKHI, SCHAFFER, PEDERSEN, NIZAMLIOGLU, TOGAN (2005) "Genetic Evidence For The Distinctness of Kangal Dogs", Bulletin of the Veterinary Institute in Pulawy 49, 249-254.


 * You mean genotype. Though not a geneticist, I do not think the authors succeed in proving their point. Interesting as the article may be, it shows merely that the 6 Akbash-type dogs in the kennel of Selcuk University are genetically less different from each other than from the 23 Kangal-type dogs in the same kennel (half of which cannot be differentiated from a sample of feral dogs, also from a single location). This research needed a much larger and more differentiated population.
 * But what is needed even more is an analysis of what a dogbreed is, or should be. Now it almost seems the authors believe it is something with an objective existence, in the classic 'racist' sense. However, the differences between older breeds do not seem to be very 'fixed', and it is largely a matter of opinion where to draw the lines. In this case the FCI drew, some time ago, a 'wide line' including several varieties. More recently other parties want to draw the line somewhere else, thinking that makes more sense. So they differentiate between two breeds, which might also have been three or four, whatever.
 * In the end, I suppose, the FCI will accept the Turkish proposals, because until now the country of origin always has had the last word. And so it should be. But it is not a matter of thruth, rather of convenience. In the meantime Wikipedia should try to make the nature of the debate clear. To help I will fill the 'see also's'. Cuon 20:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

What is a breed?
According to the UN-FAO, it's whatever the native people of a region name and describe as a breed. Breeds are valuable pools of genetic diversity--lump them together and you lose the very traits that make them valuable.

The "lumpers vs. splitters" debate is indeed a matter of both truth and convenience. The truth is that Turkey has developed several distinct breeds of livestock guardian dogs--call them landrace if you will--and these dogs fit particular geocultural niches in separate regions in which sheep herding has been the way of life for centuries. Elsewhere in Turkey, sheepherding is and has been spotty. Street dogs, including shepherd dog types, are and always have been ubiquitous in cities, towns, and villages where sheepherding is NOT the primary way of life.

The Anatolian Shepherd does not exist in Turkey, using any of the authoritative definitions of the term "breed." What breed of historic working dog spans an entire large nation, irrespective of region, ethic diversity, history? England has how many breeds of terriers? Hungary has several breeds of livestock guardians. The Anatolian is an amalgam created by British and American fanciers who brought dogs from various parts of Turkey and made up a name for them--for their convenience, and pride, and to add value to their dogs by registering them. In Turkey, they are all called "coban kopegi" of course, which simply means "shepherd's dog". It is a functional designation, not a breed name. Ask the Turks. Kangal Dogs are declared a national treasure and bred at government, military, and private facilities. The all-white Akbash Dogs are now very rare in Turkey and there is a concerted effort to save them there, along with the purebred Kangal Dog. Both breeds are declining due to the decline in the sheep industry, but that does not mean that they are not breeds.

Until recently, most Turks had no internet access, nor a sense of "dog culture" that we have in the West--they did not understand what westerners were doing to the future survival of their breed by lumping them all together under one name and getting major canine registries to give their stamp of approval. That is changing. The people of Sivas hold annual Kangal Festivals and academic symposia. There is research and organized preservation efforts underway. There is now a Turkish Kennel Club, and they have petitioned the FCI for recognition of the true native Turkish breeds.

By the way, it is nonsensical to consider "Karabash" to be a synonym of Anatolian Shepherd. Anatolians can be any color and coat length. Karabash means "black headed" and refers to the fawn, black-masked coloration of the Kangal Dog--which by the way, matches the color of the predominant sheep bred in the area, the Kangal Karaman sheep. All Kangal Dogs are "karabash" but not all karabash dogs are Kangal Dogs. The British nomenclature for the Kangal Dog adds confusion of course--some British breeders have been breeding purebred Kangal Dogs for decades but persist in calling them Karabash, despite the protests of the Turkish authorities on the breed. Plus, while they keep their breeding programs largely separate, they register their Kangals as Anatolians, ever since the British KC decided to lump all Turkish breeds together. Yes, it is confusing!

But in sum: a Kangal is a Kangal, because of history, not because of some piece of western paper. It is the national breed of Turkey. It originates in an isolated geographic and historic region of Turkey, developed along with its matching sheep to thrive in a particular environment. It's color is a visible trademark, but not the defining characteristic, any more than a Cleveland Bay horse is defined only by its color. Mismarks and untypey dogs occur with a frequency now that was not there even 10 years ago--because of increased urbanization and the introduction of outside dogs. But the Kangal Dog is a historic breed, and worthy of preservation.

As for where "other parties" want to draw the line--it's time for knowledgeable Turks to weigh in. It is hard to find any Turk who will agree with the "Anatolian lumpers" point of view, except perhaps a very few urban or disaffected people who have been "educated" away from the facts that should be obvious to anyone who visits the villages in the Sivas-Kangal region of Turkey.Beautdogs 00:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Very good article!! But I have taken out a small part as it is somewhat incorrect. The part that said 'they are known to nip at the heels of owners and other pets in an attempt to herd them'. This dog is not a herder, but rather a guard. It searches for predators and takes them out before they can attack the herd. Farmers would herd the animals themselves and send the dog/s out to ensure he and his herd were safe. The only time this dog would closely monitor the flock is during rest. I hope this is fine - I haven't added any of this to the page :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tetlinho (talk • contribs) 13:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I undone an entry
I am new here, sorry. I seen something that I think someone just added on this page without pertaining to Anatolian Shepherds, so I corrected it. However in my explanation I put "not related to Spanish goats" because I was reading about them as well and got confused. But still it didn't need to be on the page, how do I correct my explanation on the history? —Preceding unsigned comment added by L.N.farm (talk • contribs) 20:04, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:German Shepherd Dog - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 09:20, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Kangal/KC (UK) announcement re: registrations
I have added the following to this article:


 * Kangal Dog/Anatolian Shepherd
 * In the UK the Kennel Club has announced it is to recognise the Kangal Dog as a breed with effect from July 2013. It also states dogs currently registered as Anatolian Shepherd Dogs may be eligible (where appropriate) to be recorded as the Turkish Kangal Dog instead.

I hope others with more experience/knowledge of Anatolian Shepherds may be able to include it in an acceptable way as I see there has been debate previously but as it is an 'official' announcement from the Kennel Club, it should be included to avoid confusion?

Sagaciousphil (talk) 10:02, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism
Vandalism in the History section. Someone has added a lot of verbage within sentences to make it nonsensical. This dog was just on a repeat on Animal Planet which may be why....Mylittlezach (talk) 18:02, 12 April 2012 (UTC) you have no idea about the dog breeds in türkiye,so,it ,is you that make non-sense here.all the cited names of dogbreeds listed that you call vandalism exist and there is no dog called anatolian shepherd.there are many anatolian shepherd dog types in turkiye.they can be listed under the name of a general term yörük dogs which means the nomadic turks'dogs.those dogs were not peculiar to anatolia but they were dogs brought by turks that came into anatolia.you can see their counterparts in daghestan,horasan,azerbaycan,and middle asia.have you ever seen a karaman dog?a malaklı?a kangal?a tuzköy dog?toros type shepherd dog?an akbash?a pinto yörük dog?a bozova type of dog?a haymana type of shepherd dog?an uzunyayla type of shepherd dog that is called original kangal? a kars dog?a middle anatolian dog that is not malaklı?a konya type of shepherd dog?and different variations of yoruk dogs that have brownish and yellowish coat?they are all mostly related to one another.do not cut a dash here as if u were an expert on the dog types of turkiye ,you ignorant man. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.57.124.0 (talk) 22:05, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Breed Name Translation
I understand and agree with your edit that this is an English article, however I think Çoban Köpegi is the correct breed name for this article, as Çoban Köpegi is constant and the global breed identity. The alternative breed names (Anatolian, Turkish Shepherd, Anatolian Shepherd, Turkish Karabash etc) are variable in use, both between countries and within countries. The FCI breed name is 'Çoban Köpegi'. Anatolian/ Anatolian Shepherd in parenthesis was not meant to provide a translation but to help the reader with the breed's alternative identity. Perhaps the wiki dog breed template box can help improve readability and accuracy here. Bebekve (talk) 23:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Info box
I have inserted an info box - I may have some of the information in wrongly, so please alter it as needed. If you get stuck about the formatting or anything, just ask me either on here or on my talk page and I will try to help (but I'm by no means an expert!). I used the first picture in the article but it might be better if you have a picture of a dog standing. It can easily be swapped. Another place you will find editors who are very willing to help with questions about formatting and all sorts of other Wikipedia help is at the Teahouse; they are very patient, helpful and have a great deal of expert knowledge. SagaciousPhil  -  Chat  09:47, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you - I have made small changes to breed information ie size, colour, alternative names :) Bebekve (talk) 05:39, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Sag.Phil can you change the metric conversion unit from millimeters to centimeters? Breed standards list height in centimeters and inches Bebekve (talk) 05:51, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Whoops, sorry - have now corrected it, I hope   SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  13:08, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit explanation

 * moved from User Talk:Aeusoes1

Hi A1 I do not know if this is the correct place or format, but in any case the following are my reasons for undoing some of your tidy up:

Some edits from the tidy up were included but other edits gave a different meaning or emphasis to the information provided. This reduced accuracy and removed historical context. Anatolian Shepherd is a western term used to describe a group of dogs that share a geographical region; Image is not unnecessary and shows Çoban Köpegi in native working environment; Important dates relevant to breed identity / development / history within Turkey reinstated; UK Kennel Club not relevant to Turkish history, the UK Kennel Club recognition is included in relevant subsection Anatolian/Kangal; Ankader citation corrected; Image is not unnecessary and shows variation in coat colour pertinent to Anatolian / Kangal; kennel club hyperlink tidied; non functional external link removed. Bebekve (talk) 06:20, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * My talk page is normally fine, but I think this might be an issue that other editors should have input, so I've moved the conversation here.
 * While it's true that Anatolian Shepard is western in that it is used in English (a western language) and the terms for this breed in other languages are probably more cognate/related than with the Turkish term, that information is implied in the wording "The Anatolian Shepherd dog (Anadolu Çoban Köpegi) is..."      Beginning an article with "X is a term for" or "X is a term used to describe" is imprecise, since it implies that the article will be about the term and not what the term refers to.
 * My concern regarding the images is twofold: the first is that several of them are much too large. The second is that the article is so short and the images so many that the article gets cluttered with them.  I didn't give the issue too much thought and removed ones that seemed at a glance to be superfluous.  You say that the images are not unnecessary; take a look at the third paragraph at WP:IRELEV.  It seems to me that several of the images were add just because they could be.  Can you justify all of the them with the measures at WP:IRELEV?
 * I tried to improve the tone and grammar of the history section and I apologize if I removed anything important. Because it seems like English is not a language you are proficient in (or that grammar is not your forté), I suggest taking the version I edited and re-adding information I removed.  If it seems to me like what you've added is problematic, we can go from there. — Æµ§œš¹  [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]  13:26, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

A1: I do not edit Wiki or read Wiki in general, so I am not familiar with Wiki processes and methods. However I do know the Çoban Köpegi subject very well, from the Turkish and foreign perspective, hence why I was compelled to edit the Wiki content. I agree that the current wording is imprecise, and I knew this at the time of writing; however I could not formulate a satisfactory alternative, and felt imprecise was preferable to inaccurate. A lot of the 'debate' on the dogs of Turkey is two fold 1. the Western breed name (perhaps this is a better edit) and 2. the definition of Kangal (I have not edited the Kangal wiki page, as I will wait for the Kangal Association in Turkey to publicize their breed standard and findings.) Regarding the images: The Çoban Köpegi wiki content before my edits was not satisfactory. In overhauling a lot of the content, I was also mindful not to cause offense to previous contributors, hence I did not believe it polite of me to remove all of the previous images. The images I have added all have informative value, and are good representations of Çoban Köpegi. Being either: good examples of Çoban Köpegi type, Çoban Köpegi in Turkey, Çoban Köpegi registered as Anatolian abroad, and also to demonstrate that karabas does not equal Kangal; nor does the sum of Anatolian Çoban Köpegi amount to a parti colored dog in the USA (another common misconception). Regarding the number of photos in paragraph three: the image 'Çoban Köpegi in Nevşehir' actually belongs at the start of the appearance section, but as I explained above, I did not think it would be polite of me to remove all of the previous images. 'Çoban Köpegi in Nevşehir' is a necessary image as it depicts a large karabas male with quasi mastiff head type and heavy structure - good type for Çoban Köpegi but not Kangal. The image 'fawn (a^y) female Anatolian Çoban Köpegi' is necessary as it depicts classic karabas Çoban Köpegi and provides good contrast to image 'Wolf sable (a^w) female Anatolian Çoban Köpegi'. Both images demonstrate the colour range in the Agouti pattern. I was going to add more photos of a brindle Çoban Köpegi and a black and tan Kangal, but since there seems to be a quota on the number of images, thought better of it. Çoban Köpegi are not common dogs. And many readers seek wiki for information - and photos. Regarding image size: the images can be made into thumbnails that is no problem. The image of the Çoban Köpegi working in Haymana shows a large karabas male with good bone and demonstrating characteristic Çoban Köpegi stalking gait. It also demonstrated the topography of the native environment, hence I left the image in its large size. But if other editors feel the image is too big then make it a thumbnail size also. I like the photo, not because I took it, but because it demonstrates a lot about what is Çoban Köpegi. Regarding the history section: The current wiki version of Anatolian Shepherd does utilise some of your edit contribution. Thank you Bebekve (talk) 23:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Çoban Köpegi History, Temperament and Health varies depending on the country in question. Over the years subtle differences have evolved between the populations of dogs. IE conditions in Australia produce a different dog to Çoban Köpegi in USA or UK or Turkey. Contributing factors include: base gene pool, barriers to entry (ie Quarantine restrictions and import costs), Kennel Club registration requirements, utilisation ie working dog Vs pet, and then in the category of pet: rural dog Vs suburban dog. Also working conditions and requirements. For example: farms in Turkey are very different to farms in USA and different again to farms in Australia. Therefore temperament (ie reactivity) in working Çoban Köpegi in Australia, is different (in general) to working Çoban Köpegi in Turkey, and different again to show line Çoban Köpegi in USA, or Çoban Köpegi in Europe (where where the dogs are mostly kept as pets by virtue of geography and small land mass). Bebekve (talk) 00:29, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Made changes to the images: removed two ('working Çoban Köpegi in Australia 1985' & 'working Kangal dogs'), and rearranged two (Çoban Köpegi in Nevşehir' & 'Alibaba in California') Bebekve (talk) 01:23, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Since taking out images would be primarily motivated by space, rather than utility, we could do something like at Cabinet (furniture) with a little image gallery near the bottom. This way we don't have to remove images, you can add more, and the article doesn't get too cluttered. — Æµ§œš¹  [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]  04:04, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes an image gallery would be very helpful.

Regarding the external links: I have removed the 'Kangal Dog Club of Turkey = webpage:kangalefsanesi' from the Anatolian Çoban Köpegi wiki page. webpage:kangalefsanesi is not a registered organisation in Turkey, and already exists as an external link on the Kangal wiki page. The remaining two Kangal external links (KIF and ANKADER) are the two registration and breed authority bodies for Kangal dogs in Turkey. As KIF and ANKDER are registered organisations in Turkey, I think KIF and ANKADER are appropriate as external links on the Anatolian Çoban Köpegi wiki page. Bebekve (talk) 09:30, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi, it looks as if you are having a really good discussion about this article, which is great! If I could just make a very quick suggestion? It can be helpful if there is a WikiProject_Dogs/Templates in breed articles - this would also let you include the links to the various breed Standards in the info box instead of having such a long list in External links. Just a (hopefully) helpful suggestion?  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  09:48, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

A1 - where does the image gallery go, at the end of the article? How? :) Sag.Phil - can you insert the wiki dog breed template? Thank you Bebekve (talk) 22:17, 15 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I thought that the image gallery would be a good solution, but WP:IUP suggests that galleries should not just be places for images without a specific purpose. Here is the problem: If I am the average Wikipedia reader looking for basic encyclopedic information about this breed, I have no idea why I'm looking at a page with so many images. The significance of each photo may be apparent to a breed expert, but the significance of each one is not explained in the article or in the captions. We could remove some of the images and place a link in the article to Wikimedia Commons, where the reader could go to view more images.


 * The image at the bottom of the lead is an issue to me. Images in the lead should be aligned along the right side of the page. I made that change at least once and linked to WP:MOSIM for explanation, but the change was reverted. This article has made progress though. A few weeks ago there was a gigantic image of a dog at the top of the article. I'm glad we're moving in a good direction! EricEnfermero  Howdy! 11:56, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Sight, hearing and strength
I have an Anatolian Shepherd and in all my years of owning large dogs I have never had any with the sight, hearing and strength of the Anatolian Shepherd I now have. It is almost uncanny how he can hear me pick up his chain when I am more than 100 feet away. He sees things in the distance that I see minutes later as we approach them. Whoever deleted this has never owned an Anatolian Shepherd! Sirswindon (talk) 04:10, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * that's pure original research which has no place on wikipedia. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:07, 13 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The sources you added are self published and thus unsuitable. See WP:SPS. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

:).
its fr family securty — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.58.4.233 (talk) 11:06, 5 September 2013 (UTC)