Talk:Ancestor veneration in China

Worshiping the Ancestors: Chinese Commemorative Portraits By Jan Stuart, Evelyn S. Rawski
http://books.google.com/books?id=W2aaAAAAIAAJ

Rajmaan (talk) 21:08, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Encouragements for further improvements to this important article
Very impressive expansion! However, a couple of comments: What do you think? Cheers ch (talk) 00:47, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * "Chinese ancestral religion" is grammatically ambiguous. It can mean both "the ancestral (ie traditional) religion of the Chinese" and also "the Chinese religion (worshiping) ancestors"/"Chinese ancestor religion." Could we move it to "Chinese ancestor religion" or "Chinese ancestor veneration" or some such?
 * Zhang and Yuan's piece is useful, but an online publication is not as good a source as the CK Yang book it replaced. Plus, English language sources are preferred if they are equally reliable.
 * More important, Zhang and Yang's definition is not in line with the general scholarship in the field. To define Chinese "traditional primordial religion" as "faith in God (Shangdi)'s original state" constitutes Undue weight.
 * That sentence is also unclear in its meaning.
 * Yao Chinese Religion a Contextual Approach would also be a better source. His introductory "Setting The Context" specifies that "Chinese religion" should "not be interpreted as implying the existence of only one religious system," though the different ways are "rooted in and can be defined by culturally common themes and features." (p.11) He goes on to say that there are four religious traditions, or "strands,": Confucian, Taoist, Buddhist, and Popular. (p. 16)
 * Hello ch!
 * I recognise the ambiguity of "Chinese ancestral religion". I think "Chinese ancestor religion" would be a good alternative but other ones such as "Chinese ancestry religion" or "Chinese lineage religion" would be better, since they (I think) cover a broader semantic spectrum.
 * Maybe "faith in Shangdi's original form" is a better translation of what is meant by 原始状态的对上帝的信仰.--Aethelwolf Emsworth (talk) 11:28, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * According to WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, "article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." A Google search for "Chinese ancestral religion" found only a few except to Wikipedia, while there were thousands to "Chinese ancestor worship," almost none for "Chinese ancestor religion, none at all for Chinese ancestry religion.
 * Since there is not agreement among scholars that what we are talking about here is a "religion," probably "Chinese ancestor veneration" would be the best compromise if we don't want to return to "Chinese ancestor worship," which is in fact the WP:Common Name.
 * I'm not sure that these issues were explained to when the claim was made that the move was technical and uncontroversial, which it probably was not.ch (talk) 06:54, 18 January 2016 (UTC)


 * In 原始状态的对上帝的信仰, 上帝 Shàngdì literally means (by modern meanings) "above emperor" = "the emperor above", and has sometimes been used to mean "God". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:49, 18 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Apologies,, for not making clear that I was discussing the move to "Chinese ancestral religion," not the meaning of Shangdi (although there are issues there as well, which we should probably discuss in a separate heading). agrees that the present title is ambiguous, so could we move the article to ""Chinese ancestor veneration"? Thanks for your help! ch (talk) 16:46, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * As has been said, "Chinese ancestral religion" is ambiguous. Try "Chinese ancestor worship"? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:47, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I vote for "Chinese ancestor worship" or "Chinese ancestor veneration".--Aethelwolf Emsworth (talk) 17:27, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I think there is now the agreement to move the article to "Chinese ancestor worship".--Aethelwolf Emsworth (talk) 19:35, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Undo Move from Ancestor veneration in China
Here are the reasons for the move:
 * The January 11 move was not in fact a technical, uncontroversial move as stated atWikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests. That page explains "If the page has recently been moved without discussion, you may revert the move and initiate a discussion on its talk page."
 * The guidelines there state that there should be seven days allowed for discussion; the move was immediate and without discussion.
 * The discussants in the section above agree that "Chinese Ancestral Religion" is "ambiguous."
 * WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, "article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." A Google search for "Chinese ancestral religion" found only a few except to Wikipedia, while there were thousands to "Chinese ancestor worship," almost none for "Chinese ancestor religion, none at all for Chinese ancestry religion.
 * "Ancestor worship in China" is widely used, as shown in the Google search, but many scholars now object to the term "worship."
 * The term "religion" is also often used, but not the terms "Ancestor worship religion" or "Ancestor veneration religion."

I hope that this is the best compromise. ch (talk) 19:33, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The definition "Chinese ancestral religion" was primarily meant to expand the field covered by this article, prospecting the discussion of the entire religious tradition organised around the worship of ancestor-gods, which is so rooted and widespread in China. The same can obviously be made under the heading of "Chinese ancestor worship" and the like, but I personally continue to see the definition "ancestor worship" as restrictive to the ritual practice, and not covering the doctrinal and organisation aspects of this tradition which is in fact a religion (as it "religates" people in common bodies [the lineage societies] with a common god [the ancestor-god]). I think we could find literature to expand the article in this way.--Aethelwolf Emsworth (talk) 17:51, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Why "Chinese traditional patriarchal religion" and "Chinese primordial religion" should not be in the lead
Thanks, for your articulate comments above and the good explanations of your reasoning.

I would be willing to see "Chinese primordial religion" or ""Chinese traditional patriarchal religion" discussed in a section on "Chinese academic discourse' or "developments in research," but they should not be included in the lead. Hope this makes sense! ch (talk) 18:23, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
 * They are not English language terms but translations. A Google search does not find either of them except in this article and websites that reproduce it: Search "Chinese primordial religion" and Search "Chinese traditional patriarchal religion"
 * The citation for the term in Chinese are not to WP:RELIABLESOURCES, but to website for a provincial party research institute. This is not a reliable index of what terms are common in Chinese academic discourse. Again, however, it might be appropriate to add a section on this topic.
 * We must keep our readers in mind. Students in my college level course on Chinese Civilization would not understand these terms, and high school students would be turned away before they came to the quite useful information in the article.
 * I have moved the names to the "definition" section. However, the Chinese term appears to have been already translated into English and to be used in some publications (take Yang & Tamney's Confucianism and Spiritual Traditions in Modern China cited in the article or Gaenssbauer's Popular Belief in Contemporary China: A Discourse Analysis at page 82, or more extensively in Jinghao Zhou's Remaking China's Public Philosophy for the Twenty-first Century at page 42).--Aethelwolf Emsworth (talk) 19:27, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Ghosts?
I appreciate the truth that the word "ghosts" has problems, but it is the word Nadeau uses and is widely accepted as a more or less technical term -- eg Arthur Wolf's Gods, Ghosts, and Ancestors and Donald Jordan's book with the same phrase, among many others, as found in a Google search "Gods Ghosts and Ancestors". The list of phenomena involved would be incomplete without some such term, and since none of them is any better, and since "ghosts" is both widely accepted and in the source, it seems necessary to use it. ch (talk) 04:55, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Ancestor veneration is not "the patriarchal Chinese religion"; cut from lead
The statement that "Chinese patriarchal religion" is another name for "ancestor worship/ veneration" should be cut from the lead sentence.


 * Zhou Jinghuo's Remaking China's Public Philosophy in the 21st Century (2003) is not a reliable source on "traditional Chinese religion."


 * In any case, far as I can tell from the snippets here, the book does not support the statement. It sees all traditional Chinese religion as patriarchal rather than labeling "ancestor worship" as "the patriarchal religion."

We should not conflate these two, maybe three, things: #1 Ancestor worship or veneration #2 "traditional Chinese religion," #3 "patriarchal Chinese religion." The lead should, however, distinguish them, while discussing separately in the section below the tendency of many scholars in contemporary mainland China to define traditional religion as patriarchal (which it was). But there could be a patriarchal religion that did not involve ancestor veneration and vice-versa. The two are not the same. "Patriarchal Chinese religion" is not a synonym for Ancestor veneration.
 * Zhou'sChinese vs Western Perspective, which, to be sure, is also not the best source since both books concern contemporary China, clarifies what he means by "patriarchal religion, and makes this distinction: "The basis of the patriarchal religion was the worship pf ancestors..." which is not the same as saying that the worship of ancestors, that is, the subject of this article, was in itself the religion. p. 137

This quote from the abstract to He's article makes this clear:
 * All religions in China are closely linked to the traditional religion based on the patriarchal clan system. This bedrock faith of the Chinese, as it interacts with native religions and foreign religions, has fundamentally influenced the religious psychology of all Chinese people. Following a brief introduction to China’s religions, this article discusses folk religions as the main expression of traditional patriarchal religion...

In addition, the abstract of an article is not a reliable source, especially an article that is not in a China oriented journal. Moreover, the lead already states that "Chinese religion is based on worship of ancestors." Since the quote is not needed, should be cut.

The article does indeed need to show that there is a variety of approaches. Views should be given WP:DUEWEIGHT, but not leave the impression that equating #1, #2, and #3 is the majority view. Zhuo Zhiping is indeed a serious scholar, and he does make this equation between #1 & #2, e.g. in the quote from Mou "traditional religion ... 'evolved from the worship of heaven and ancestors ... and it is also called "traditional patriarchal religion."

Hope this clarifies the questions and the discussion. ch (talk) 06:13, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

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