Talk:Ancient Greek religion/Archive 1

Very Misleading and Potentially Biased
Ancient Greek religion went WAY beyond the popular mythology. Not only does the section on Mystery Religions deserve expansion, but an entirely new section dedicated to "philosophical" approaches such as Platonism, Cynicism, Pythagoreanism and Stoicism needs to be created. Downplaying such traditions as Stoicism, Platonism and the Mysteries (Orphism etc) is suspicious. Each of these undermines Christianity by illustrating the pre-existence of a LARGE number of theological ideas that led to, or were absorbed by, Christianity. Fundamentalists don't like these connections and would likely try to have those subjects deleted. History, however, demands the most accurate depiction possible. Let's get all the relevant information out there. Fundamentalists do not get to dictate reality. 75.70.99.101 (talk) 03:05, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Comparison of Apollo
The article mentions that Bacchus is the Roman God for Apollo. I believe this to be incorrect. Bacchus is the Roman God for Dionysus the god of wine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TitusCicero (talk • contribs) 17:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, that's also wrong. Bacchus is a common Roman appellation of Dionysus, but it's actually still Greek. The Greeks primarily called the deity either Dionysos and Bacchos, while the Romans called him either Bacchus (taken from the Greek) or Liber (which he was compared to in the interpretatio Romana). Chris Weimer (talk) 08:36, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Major gods and goddess check
There are only 12 gods and goddesses in the olympian counsil, Zeus god of all gods, Poseidon god of water,horses and earthquakes, Hera goddess of childbirth and marriage, Dionysus the god of wine and partying, Apollo god of sunlight, artimisgoddes of the hunt and light of the moon, athena goddes of wisdom and battle strategy, ares god of war, Hephaestus god of fire and blacksmiths, aphrodite goddes of lve and bauty , hermesmessenger of the gods and thiefs, and Demeter the goddes of the harvest. Hades is a major god but he is not in the olympian counsil. Hestia [goddess of the hearth] is a major goddess but she is not in the olymipian counsil for she gave her seat to dionysus. thanks, emily age 12

provide a reference for this claim before putting it into the article. Hades is one of the origional 6 olympians even if he spends most of his time in the underworld he is still the brother of Zeus and Poisdon. Smitty1337 (talk) 17:24, 21 March 2010 (UTC)


 * on second thought, it may be worth mentioning that depending on time and person writing, different concepts arise as to who rules on mount olympus, or maybe just a link to twelve olympians. Hades is an olympian depending who you ask in antiquity, and apparentlly so is heracles which to me makes no sense since he's a demigod. I'll have to verify that part on the other page. Smitty1337 (talk) 18:04, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

The Introduction
For obvious reasons the current introduction for this page is not up to standard, but in attempting to restore this page to a former respectable state (not my own work, however) I found that the changes had been reverted. In trying again, I found that I had been reported for vandalism. Obviously some rather prideful but tactless wikipedian is sitting on this article. Can a mod of some sort step in here? Pleas tell me the following entry is better than what currently stands: Greek religion encompasses the collection of beliefs and rituals practiced in Ancient Greece in form of cult practices. It is therefore the practical counterpart of Greek mythology. Within the Greek world, religious practice varied enough so that one might speak of Greek religions. The cult practices of the Hellenes extended beyond mainland Greece, to the islands and coasts of Ionia in Asia Minor, to Magna Graecia (Sicily and southern Italy), and to scattered Greek colonies in the Western Mediterranean, such as Massalia (Marseille). Greek examples tempered Etruscan cult and belief to inform much of the Roman religion.

There is a scholarly belief that early Greek religion came from, or was strongly influenced by, shamanistic practices from the steppes of Central Asia to the Greek colony of Olbia in Scythia, on the northern shore of the Black Sea, then all the way down to Greece.

The last sentence in particular is just false - I think that there might be some over-reaching going on in the interpretation of the source (which I admit I have not read). Nevertheless, we have evidence that deities such as Zeus, Poseidon and Hera were worshiped by the Mycenaeans (Linear B tablets record this). If the source is claiming Orphism came from Scythia - this may well be the case. However, it is too much to claim Greek religion as a whole, or even significant parts of it, were imported. Most of it was indigenous - surviving the Dark Age collapse and being reinterpreted, to be sure. I'm going to go ahead and just erase that sentence. It needs to be placed elsewhere or reworked, because as it is, it just isn't true. Pyzmark (talk) 23:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

In fact, another interesting tidbit of information. Not only were Zeus, Hera and Poseidon known to the Mycenaeans, Dionysos was as well. His name is mentioned in Linear B tablets. This should be included in the section discussing Dionysos - since it proves Dionysos was not imported later-on to Greece. He was a local god whom the Greeks themselves believed to be imported - but was in fact indigenous. This was a part of his own story, because, being from a wild region such as Thrace linked him more closely to wine and to the wild fringes of civilization, which is precisely the function he fulfilled for the Greeks. This needs to be remedied in this article. The Greek pantheon was settled long before Homer. Hesiod, on the other hand, does do some strange things with mythology. His Theogony makes use of many Near East themes (castration of Uranus, etc.). But he builds on basic elements, he does not invent gods. Pyzmark (talk) 00:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments
Might be an idea to mention the house hold gods (the furies) and not just the pantheon.212.140.143.211 (talk) 03:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The furies weren't household gods - they were worshiped publicly at Athens as the Eumenides, but almost nowhere else. I can't think of any evidence for the Furies being worshiped in the home - but I might just not be looking at the same text you are. Could you provide a source for that? Pyzmark (talk) 23:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if it is the right place to put it, but I found this page simply copied in http://www.measuroo.com/rel-G/Greek_religion.php It´s unfare! You work hard on it

I think this article needs a section on reciprocal religion and what it means to sacrifice to the gods. The Greeks were not unique in this, but the degree to which this formed the core of their mainstream religious values cannot be overstated. Sacrifice was a way for the community to come together, above all, and so public sacrifice is one of the pillars that the Greek City State rested on. Moreover, the idea of dividing the natural world into distinct spheres and assigning each god a definite and well-defined role is an important point to make. The ancient Greek, when he/she sacrificed, was not just petitioning some personal favour, but actively making sense of the universe and his place in it. The act of sacrifice itself, as a way of placing man in relationship to the gods, to the animals he sacrifices, and to one another, is a crucial act that I don't think has gotten enough attention in this article. Pyzmark (talk) 00:06, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

CULTUS
Dionysus is mentioned in the illiad, though negatively. I cant remeber where though.

Still, changes to the canon remained possible; the Iliad seems to have been unaware of Dionysus, a god whose worship apparently spread after it was written, and who became important enough to be named one of the twelve chief Olympian deities, ousting the ancient goddess of the hearth, Hestia. It has been written by scholars that Dionysus was a "foreign" deity, brought into Greece from outside local cults, external to Greece proper. 2 3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.140.143.211 (talk) 03:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

who were some of the major gods and goddesses?

Shouldn't this page be more correctly titled "Ancient Greek Religion"? - Lor

This page also apparently needs some major cleanup. There are some factual inaccuracies, vague references, and the subject isn't prefaced very well for being such a prominent area of academic interest. Unfortunately, this article (like Roman religion) will require quite a bit of work to mercilessly edited by you guys, so I'll do this when my class-work lets out, and I'll add it to my watchlist. --Kaelus 11:56, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I changed the (Persecution, revival) section to be a little more neutral. Unless some backing sources/examples of persecution leading to the decline in the religion can be given I feel my edits more accurately reflect the tone of the religion's decline. I was hesitant to do anything with regards to the "revival" aspect as I don't know enough on the subject, but I'm a little dubious as to whether it should be even mentioned in this article at all. I can't see how a few dozen (as the Greek Reconstruction link makes mention) practicers constitutes a "revival" of the religion. -- rsagris
 * I trust the present text is clear enough. Septentrionalis 19:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * More like about 10,000 (or more, depending on who you ask) in Greece and probably another 1000 internationally, including at least 500 in the US. Please see the revamped Hellenic polytheism article for more information.  I'm not complaining about the current mention, though - the article is on ancient Greek religion, after all. - AdelaMa e  (talk - contribs) 09:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The idea there are at least 500 individuals are practicing Hellenic Polytheism is completely speculative, and I would presume based on some notion any Neopagan who incorporate Greek deities into their personal religion fall under the term. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 15:47, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Estimate was based on membership in the Yahoo group HellenicPagan (currently stands at 592) and other online Hellenic pagan organizations. While not all members of these groups are avowed Hellenic polytheists, not all avowed Hellenic polytheists belong to these groups, so I would assume it balances out. As with most religious groups, the exact number of adherents is elusive, but 500 seems to me a conservative guess for US Hellenic polytheists. - AdelaMae (t - c - wpn) 04:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have to say the basis for your claim is fraught with uncertainty and doubt. (1) Association with online discussion groups does not imply the practice of anything, only some level of interest (just because I may be a member of a Christian forum does not make me a Christian). (2) Any analysis of active members of those who participate in discussions verses inactive members, "email bouncing" members, and lurkers shows a true membership of maybe a dozen within HellenicPagan. (3) Participating in discussions does not mean practice of a religion (just because I may participate of a Christian forum is does not make me a Christian). (4) It seems that "other online Hellenic pagan organizations" in the US have a heavy cross membership. We cannot presume that all x number of members on any forum or discussion group are unique from HellenicPagan. In fact, it seems most plausable not to be true. (5) I would also refer you back to the "Terminology" discussion on the Egyptian talk page. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 19:38, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not asking for this number to be included in the article, as I'm well aware that this method of data collection doesn't meet encyclopedic standards. I'm also well aware that participation in HellenicPagan doesn't imply that a person practices Hellenic polytheism or identifies as a Hellenic polytheist. However, I do believe that membership numbers and posting frequency in groups like HellenicPagan make it clear that there are more than "a few dozen" people involved (even without counting Greek adherents). That's all I wanted to establish.
 * As for your claim that HellenicPagan has a "true membership of maybe a dozen", well, I went and counted and the last 100 posts alone featured messages from 29 distinct posters (not counting those with multiple usernames). Over the last two years, the group has averaged 270 posts per month. In several months, there have been over 1000 posts. That kind of posting volume takes a lot more than a dozen active members. Also, it should be noted that the Neokoroi Yahoo group, which is "a restricted membership group, for Hellenic polytheists only," currently has 158 members.
 * I didn't see a "Terminology" heading on the talk page you linked, so could you please be more specific about the part of the discussion you're referring to, or quote the relevant bits on this page? Thanks. - AdelaMae (t - c - wpn) 03:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You counted 100 posts and they featured messages from 29 distinct posters dating how far back??? It certainly was not that last 100 posts, which that last 100 posts covers that the 60 days or more. You also don't seem to make the distinction between regular posters, and the casual poster. And, there is also the leap of assuming that membership and/or participation on the list means they are a Hellenic polytheist. Also, just looking over that last few pages of posts, a number of individuals can be shown to be not unique to HellenicPagan and a cross-membered to other groups, which addresses the question of membership numbers in other groups. Your 270 posts per month figure would also show less than 10 posts per day, but the average for 2008 is only 133 posts per month (about 4.5 posts per day), despite membership being at its highest levels.
 * Neokoroi on the other hand is much more active, but even then they show 146 members in the Yahoo Group but only list 86 on the website as active members, again many can be shown to be cross-members of other groups so there is no way to use these strict numbers in any calculation. Also, since Neokoroi is a closed group, there is no way to conclude actual active members based on activity, which incidental also seems to have dropped off in 2008 compared to 2007.
 * On top of it all, none of these groups are restricted to Hellenic polytheists in the United States. Another indicator strict numbers off these lists cannot be used in calculating any number. There is no idea how many people are only investigating Hellenic polytheism. There is no idea how many people have moved on from Hellenic polytheism but kept their membership active. There is no idea the number of people who are there who are of other religions, participating for any number of legitimate reasons.
 * If we want to add one more group to this conversation, Hellenion doesn't seem to put out official numbers either, but their Yahoo group list (Hellenion Chat) shows 273, but their 2007 financials show there could be no more than 43 official members. We have to be realistic here. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 14:07, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Your point? - AdelaMae (t - c - wpn) 01:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you miss it? My point was in my original response to this thread. The idea at least 500 individuals are practicing Hellenic Polytheism is completely speculative. Even placing the number of adherents in the US at 250 would be extremely generous. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 11:46, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * To quote the above (since apparently you missed it): I do believe that membership numbers and posting frequency in groups like HellenicPagan make it clear that there are more than "a few dozen" people involved (even without counting Greek adherents). That's all I wanted to establish. I don't know what vested interest you have in downplaying the number of modern US Hellenic polytheists, but it's not relevant to this article, which, in case you have forgotten, is about religion in ancient Greece. - AdelaMae (t - c - wpn) 19:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Attempt to clean up
I broke up the overview paragraph in to three seperate ones base on the three main ideas Storm63640 20:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

What the devil is an "aniconic idol?" Isn't that a bit like saying "protestant pope?" Then again, I wonder if an "aniconic idol" is a statue taken to actually BE the God, and not a representation? I doubt it, but it'd be neat.

Orphism
Shouldn't their be a link to Orphism somewhere on this page. I find it weird that it isn't mentioned anywhere.

The language is too complicated
for somthing that is meant to b a primary and secondary school source of information it has much to many strange words for them such as 'thus' my daughter in year 7 had no idea what it meant so i would like someone to please change some of these words they are much to hard.
 * This is not a primary school source. Go find another site if you wish to have a primary school source.  Also, you could try Simple English Wikipedia.

Name
There an actual name to this religion or did they call it Religion in ancient Greece?-- §  Eloc   §  01:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no there probably wasn't a name for their religion. After all, as the article says, the same gods may have been recognised pan-hellenically, they often weren't worshipped for the same thing everywhere. I would suggest that if this were the case in a modern religion, these types of differences would be enough to call them multiple religions. Also, the ancient greeks will have had little need to name the religion, they won't have come into contact with that many other large religions. When they did come into contact with significant other religions, there will have been little need to differentiate between the two by name - everyone will have known who worshipped what as religion was such a huge part of their life. --Freedo50 (talk) 22:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Original research tag
Hi all,

I tagged this article as containing original research while doing some other things (specifically, while trying to come to a conclusion on Talk:Hawaiian religion and neglected to come back and explain myself.

Now that I look a little closer, Morefootnotes might have been more appropriate. Basically, every section seems to contain claims that struck me as original research, if only because the claims are not tied to any of the numerous references provide. For example...

"It is perhaps misleading to speak of 'Greek religion.' In the first place, the Greeks did not have a term for "religion" in the sense of a dimension of existence distinct from all others, and grounded in the belief that the gods exercise authority over the fortunes of human beings and demand recognition as a condition for salvation."

"Individuals had a great deal of autonomy in dealing with the gods. After some particularly striking experience, they could bestow a new title upon a god, or declare some particular site as sacred. No authority accrued to the individual who did such a thing, and no obligation fell upon anyone else--only a new opportunity or possibility was added to the already vast and ill-defined repertoire for nomizeining the gods."

"All in all, there was no "dogma" or "theology" in the Greek tradition, no heresy, possibility of schism, or any other social phenomenon articulated according to the background orientation to a codified order of religious understanding. Such variety in Greek religion reflects the long, complicated history of the Greek-speaking peoples."

...and so on. If these passages have scholarly works backing them up, footnotes should be added to make this fact clear and make it possible for readers to verify the information. If they do not, then the passages should be deleted.

Sadly, the fact that I'm neither an expert on the subject nor living in a country where I have ready access to relevant texts means that I can't do much to directly aid in the improvement of the article, which is why I tagged it instead in the hopes that someone who is in a position to improve it would be able to do so. -- jonny - m t  06:53, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the explanation. You're right to note that the article doesn't make sufficient reference to the large body of scholarship on ancient Greek religion. However, the particular quotes you pick out don't seem that problematic to me; they're commonplace assertions about the nature of Greek religion that one might find in any general work about the subject. As such it's not clear to me that they even need citations, because they aren't controversial points. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:44, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the delay in response--I've been having a good old-fashioned sock hunt.


 * While I don't deny that the points above might be fairly commonplace to someone familiar with the subject, a reader like myself with no specialized knowledge (although I did wear out a couple of copies of d'Aulaire's Book of Greek Myths growing up) would have no way of knowing this. In addition, there's no way of knowing whether or not these claims are direct from specific authors or whether an editor has instead synthesized multiple claims.  Based on these two factors, I'd argue that there's a fairly good chance that the claims are likely to be challenged, which means WP:V kicks in and requires that citations be provided. At least, that's how I see it--if you'd like we can always ask around WikiProject Greece and get some outside opinions. -- jonny - m  t  01:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I see your point--if you have no knowledge of the subject, almost all of the information in this article is going to seem potentially questionable. The problem is, since these really are commonplace assertions, it's hard for me to figure out which work we should cite--because potentially any work that touches on the subject of Greek religion could say these things, These are the situations that result in citations to wholly inappropriate sources--undergraduate textbooks, other encyclopedias, obscure articles published in the 1930s, college course descriptions, and so on (I've seen all of these cited, and I've even seen FAs sourced to textbooks and encyclopedias). I'll see if I can find something appropriate.


 * By the way, if there are ever questions about articles dealing with the classical world, Wikiproject Classical Greece and Rome is a good place to ask for help. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, a good point. I suppose the selection of one or two representative works (and ideally chapters or pages within those works) might be the way to go?  I'll keep that Wikiproject in mind as well--in the meantime, please let me know if there's anything I can do to help flesh out the sources! -- jonny - m  t  04:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Hellenism section should probably be deleted
This section is nothing more than a list of articles with no narrative, and the list seems a bit dubious. This all goes back the the "original research or unverified claims" dispute added back in June by Pyzmark. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 14:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hellenistic religion is poorly written, too short, uncited, and a bit deceptive.
 * Neoplatonism could possibly have section to itself, or as part of an over all section speaking on the topic or religion and philosophy.
 * Hellenistic Judaism is more in regard to the export of Hellenic culture than religion in ancient Greece itself.
 * Greek Magical Papyri being listed is dubious. The various works were discovered in Egypt, and while written in Greek, has really nothing to do with religion in ancient Greece.
 * The Imperial cult in ancient Rome is not one of the Hellenistic aspects of the Roman Religion.
 * Gnosticism may warrant discussion under the topic of religion in ancient Greece, but it should probably be included under the Christianization section.

Check this
"Bratsun is the main god of Anceint Greeks. He over rules all Greeks." This seems odd. Please check it. --FinnWiki (talk) 21:50, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Never mind, it was reverted while I asked. --FinnWiki (talk) 21:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Deleted footnotes
I deleted the 5 footnotes which were at the bottom of the page, because the sentences they were citing have apparently all long since been deleted from the page. (They were last all there in April 2008). None of them made use of &lt;ref&gt; tags, and were thus, I suppose, always vulnerable to deletion. Singinglemon (talk) 01:44, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Title of the Article
If even in the text it is mentioned that "it is missleading to speak of "Greek religion.", then I suggest that we change the title to "Greek Polytheism" or "Ancient Greek Polytheism". Hellenic Polytheism can't actually be considered as an organised religion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.49.39.55 (talk) 16:44, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I would oppose a change to (ancient) Greek polytheism. The doubt about "Greek religion" as a term springs from the variability of practices across the Greek world--thus, some might say that it's more accurate to speak of Greek religions (e.g., Simon Price's Religions of the ancient Greeks. However, the most common way to refer to our subject is still Greek religion (singular); see, e.g. Walter Burkert, Greek Religion, Jon Mikalson, Ancient Greek Religion, Jan Bremmer, Greek Religion, and so on. In any case the title "Religion in ancient Greece" doesn't imply a single, unitary object of study, so there's no problem here anyway. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:09, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Page move
Someone moved this page to Polytheism in ancient Greece. I've moved it back. I've already stated the reason why this page should be called "Religion in ancient Greece" in the section just above. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

After Christianity came

 * We need a section about how quickly the Greek religion went out of use when Christianity came. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 12:30, 26 February 2011 (UTC)