Talk:Ancient Persian units of measurement

Please see ancient weights and measures for previous edit history and discussions wrt this article.

How user Egil's massive edit changed the whole nature of the page

 * First He proposed to "cleanup" the page
 * by catagorizing by culture rather than measure
 * On his own, over protest, he unilateraly did so
 * Then he decided to delete all reference to the original version
 * which preserved the comparison of units between cultures on a single page


 * User Egil also has yet to comply with any request to state
 * his expertise in ancient Persian weights and measures

Table of tributes
Re copyright: You appear to have quoted (without commentary) a copyrighted source. Note: copyright law can, in some cases, be pretty stupid and this is, IMO, one of those situations. The original source has been dead for millenia, but the book you get the information from is still copyrighted, so unless you can establish that the specific material you're quoting is out of copyright (i.e. has not been edited since 1923) you probably shouldn't quote it.


 * If you find yourself using words like "it appears", "it seems" its probably best to take a step back and look for some proof before you act. The best way to see if you have proof is to ask me. If I say no you are mistaken and tell you why don't ignore that. The information that is quoted as coming from the primary source can never be protected by copyright, only the original commentary upon it.

In addition, the specifics of who paid what tribute are irrelevant to an article about ancient Persian weights and measures. The actual conversion from Babylonian talents to Attic talents is relevant, and in keeping with the rest of the article. The specifics are potentially relevant to an article about Cyrus II of Persia. I hesitated to raise this argument previously because, frankly, you don't listen to it.

in use in different places. Persia is huge incorporating many different cultures with different standards of measure from Egypt to Afghanistan. As with metrification people tend to be resistant to giving up their local standards so its a huge datum.
 * The reason they are not irrelevant is that they give you information about different standards

Finally, as editing on Wikipedia is cooperative, you should consider whether there have been any actual improvements made in intervening edits before reverting back to a three week old, badly formatted version.


 * I generally do consider that but it takes two to cooperate. If you don't remove important content without discussion based on misguided speculations and opinions, we won't have to keep going through this process. If you don't understand why some information is included, delay an hour and ask before you take it out. Think about how much of my patient editing I have watched you sell down the river (Mylos) for no good reason because you lack the knowledge base to appreciate it.

Merging is harder than simply reverting (which is usually seen as a sign of a combative editor) but results in a better article over time. I refer you to a comparison of the list of persian lengths in your version and mine. This is a trivial example, but mine is definitely easier to read. This type of behavior is part of the reason Egil has submitted a request for arbitration against you, and a large part of the problems you are having with other users.

then we will agree together and put something up.
 * I looked at the two versions and prefer my own because it breaks the facts out rather than running them all together but its a mute point. I think what we need to correct here is the names and values of the units and provide sources. I will put what I propose be changed here and you can respond here

Persian length

 * 1 finger = *aiwas
 * 1 hand = *pank'a *aiwas = 1 *dva
 * 1 foot = *trayas *dva = 1 *trayas
 * 1 cubit = *k'atwa:r *dva = 1 *k'atwa:r
 * 1 pace = *pank'a *trayas = 1 *pank'a
 * 1 cane = *(k)swacsh *k'atwa:r = 1 *(k)swacsh
 * 1 chebel = 1 *(k)swacsh *(k)swacsh = 1/2 1 *ashta *nawa *daca
 * 1 *pank'a *sapta = 30 furlongs = 250 chebel ≈ 5.55 km
 * 1 *pank'a *sapta is the distance a horse could walk in one hour.)


 * Arbitration involves both sides. I expect Egil will be asked to back up his speculation and opinion with references he doesn't have. The same applies to other parties to the dispute. Aside from that by joining in the cause of action you make my point that you are conspiring together to act in concert.

Ken talk 14:48, August 30, 2005 (UTC)


 * The primary source the information comes from is Herodotus Book III. I gave you a link to it.

"LXXXIX. Having done these things in Persia, he divided his dominions into twenty provinces, which they call satrapies;1 and having divided his dominions and appointed governors, he instructed each people to pay him tribute, consolidating neighboring peoples and distributing outlying peoples among different provinces, passing over those adjoining. [2] I will now show how he divided his provinces and the tributes which were paid him yearly. Those that paid in silver were required to render the weight of a Babylonian talent; those that paid in gold, of a Euboic talent; the Babylonian talent being equal to seventy-eight Euboic minae. [3] In the reigns of Cyrus and Cambyses after him there was no fixed tribute, but payment was made in gifts. It is because of this fixing of tribute, and other similar ordinances, that the Persians called Darius the merchant, Cambyses the master, and Cyrus the father; for Darius made petty profit out of everything, Cambyses was harsh and arrogant, Cyrus was merciful and always worked for their well-being." Rktect 01:42, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Not disputed
I have not claimed that the information on this particular page was disputed. A cleanup tag is something different: it means that the page is not up to the standard of quality expected of Wikipedia -- read the articles at the wikilinks of the cleanup tag to see exactly what that means. For instance, in my view, the section "REVENUES OF THE GREAT KING OF PERSIA" does not belong, since it reduces the clarity by providing much information irrelevant for the matter at hand. It may certainly be useful to quote it as a referrence, especially if a comment is added as to which Persian weights and measures it documents, but the full quote is not suitable for this article. -- Egil 06:49, 31 August 2005 (UTC)