Talk:Ancient synagogue (Barcelona)

Caution needed
A little caution would be preferable in the article; from the only very authoritative source (the Call association) it seems not really confirmed that this was the site of the synagogue in 1267, let alone a thousand years earlier. Clearly everyone is happy to create a new tourist attraction, but we should use some qualification. One would expect some academic articles if it were the "oldest synagogue in Europe". The excavated ruins in Ostia (Rome) and Stobi (Macedonia) appear to be older, and the synagogue converted to church at Elche in Spain of the 4th century or earlier. All of these are in a ruined state with mostly just floors remaining, whereas Barcelona, if they have the right building, has perhaps been in continuous use (as something) since antiquity. So I think a hook is there, but needs restating. The New Jersey Jewish News is not the ideal source for a claim this large. This book, too early to cover Barcelona, deals with the main very old synagogue sites. Johnbod (talk) 18:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You raise a very good point. Sigh. Unfortunately I was able to find only a single academic paper referring to the current project, "Entre el ayer y el mañana: el proyecto de recuperación de la antigua Sinagoga Mayor de Barcelona" ("Between yesterday and tomorrow: the recovery project of the ancient Main Synagogue of Barcelona"), but I don't have access to the journal it was published in. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * For whatever it's worth, the Encyclopaedia Judaica (2007) says "The sinagoga mayor was the Great Synagogue that was visited by James I during the Barcelona Disputation. This synagogue has recently been restored." (vol. 3, p. 143) — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 05:22, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If sinagoga mayor means the Great Synagogue, this page should be renamed Great Synagogue (Barcelona) which conforms to all other "Great Synagogue" articles. (P.S. Nice synagogue addition!) Chesdovi (talk) 19:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Most sources refer to it as the "Main Synagogue", although I've found two sources (the Encyclopaedia Judaica and "Barcelona's Great Synagogue Set for Restoration" by Geoffrey David Goldstein) that refer to it as the "Great Synagogue". I'll keep looking and see what else I find. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Does Mayor translate as "Main", or possibly "Major"? If "major" is the case, Great Synagogue would be in order. Chesdovi (talk) 21:22, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Main or Great are both ok I think - I presume it's the same in Catalan as Plaza Mayor of Madrid where "main" is more appropriate. Johnbod (talk) 21:42, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * When it comes to synagogues, I think Great Synagogue is better. Barcelona's current synagogue, Cominidad Israelita de Barcelona, would probably be classified as Barcelona's "main synagogue" today. Chesdovi (talk) 22:05, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Call
Call means "Jewish Quarter" in Catalan, which might be added or translated in the article. See Johnbod (talk) 23:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. The article Jewish Quarter (diaspora) is interWikilinked to Call. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 00:12, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Is it really the oldest?
Designating this - or any other - the "oldest+ on the basis of news stories is problematic. Please see Oldest synagogues in the WorldHistoricist (talk) 22:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See above - but the linked article includes a cautious statement of this claim among others. Johnbod (talk) 01:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Modern synagogue of Barcelona
I know there is one. I think there may be two. It might be nice to put a section at the bottom of this article describing them.Historicist (talk) 22:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Name of the article
This synagogue is designated "Mayor" in Spanish souces. This can be directly translated into English as either "Main" or "Great". This was translated as "Main" in the article title. However, Jewish custom was to designate the principal synagogue of everycity as "Mayor" (Spanish) "Wielka" (Polish) and so forth. This referred not simply to size, but to rank. The naming convention in English is to render all such designations as "Great. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Synagogue)

The problem with calling this ancient synagogue "Main" synagogue is not, however, simply that it is a violation of this naming convention in synagogue history and architecture. It is because the building is not the main of=r principal synagogue of Barcelona.

I therefore changed the name to "Ancient Synagogue of Barcelona". I thought this a straightforward and more accurate name, and uncontroversial.Historicist (talk) 12:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I apologize fo rnot reading the discussion page before wiriting. "Great" would be the best translation of Mayor into English for a synagouge, but I do continue to see "Ancient" as more accurate.Historicist (talk) 12:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Synagogue of Barcelona
Hello. Can you show me any sources that refer to the synagogue as the "Ancient Synagogue of Barcelona"? Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:17, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Certainly. The synagogue is not yet much discussed in English-language sources, however, google keywords: antigua sinagoga barcelona, and you get a great many hits, often reading Antigua Sinagoga Mayor de Barcelona   translated, the Ancient (or old) Great Synagogue of Barcelona.  This is an accurate title.  I would be happy with it: The Ancient Great Synagogue of Barcelona.  But Main Synagogue of Barcelona is simply inaccurate.Historicist (talk) 12:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I'm not going to pursue this, but it seems like most of those ghits use antigua as a lower-case adjective, as in "ancient Main Synagogue of Barcelona" (or "ancient Great Synagogue of Barcelona"). My concern was that there are no ghits in English for "Ancient Synagogue of Barcelona", which makes it an unusual choice for a Wikipedia title (see WP:COMMONNAME). — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 18:14, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You have a point there. The move should have been discussed here, per WP:MOVE, and there is no reason not to do so now. The exact current title has no ghits except WP. "great" has none, "Main" has 130 odd, although a lot derive from WP. Johnbod (talk) 03:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Right. I ought to have discussed it here.  Mayor means principal, ancd can be translated as main or great.  As USER:Chesdovi perhaps the principal writer about old synagogues on wikipedia, has pointed out, the naming convention in English for the principal synagogue in a city is to call it the great synagogue of...  The problems with calling this The Great Synagogue of Barcelona are 1) that it is not now the city's synagogue, it's a museum, and, 2)that the identity of the building is not firmly established.Historicist (talk) 13:41, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Antigua Sinagoga Mayor de Barcelona gets lots of use in Spanish, also as antigua Sinagoga Mayor de Barcelona (antiqua not capitalized)  including in Spain's leading newspaper, El Pais.   Ancient Synagogue of Barcelona is probably the most accurate title, and has the advantage of conveying the idea that this is an historical site.    But I also see why Great Synagoue of Barcelona is a good title.  It is certainly the best translation of the most common Spanish name Sinogoga Mayor de Barcelona’’.  And it avoids the implications of main’’   Although not the problem of not implying more than we know, i.e., while this building almost certainly was an ancient synagogue, it is not as clear in the  report of the Associació Call de Barcelona  that it was the principal medieval synagogue.  Overall, I think Ancient Great Synagogue Barcelona  or Ancient Synagogue of Barcelona have the fewest problems.Historicist (talk) 14:00, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I see these issues; there are other options worth considering, like Great/Main Synagogue of Barcelona (ancient/former/medieval). There seems better evidence for it being the "medieval" synagogue than for it being the "ancient" one.  Johnbod (talk) 14:08, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am quite honestly puzzled as to what to do. There is incontrovertable evidence that a Jewish community existed in Barcelona in the period in question, and Barcelona is a city where good archaeologists and excellent medievalists work.  The problem is that there is no definitive evidence that this building was ever a synagogue.  I'm stumped.  I just edited lightly to make the distction between what is known and what is conjectured clear.  I also phoned a leading medieval historian who I know inspected the synagogue last year.  He is sceptical because of the lack of direct evidence: no epigraphy, (there is very commmonly some, in both ancient and medieval synagogues, such as the ones in Buda) no Jewish symbols,  no niche for the Torah which was near-universal in Roman era synagogues.  There is no scholarly consensus on this building.  As to what to call it, I prefer Great to Main.  (There probably ought ot be an article about the contemporary synagogue.)  ANd I continue to prefer some indication in the title that this is an historic structure.Historicist (talk) 15:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Date of the building
I admit to not being very familiar with this particular synagogue, however, someone neeeds to spend the time getting the dating accurate. I have seen claims that it was originally built as early as the first and as late as the sixth century. But also statements that it was rebuilt in the thirteenth century. That word rebuild is very tricky, as it can refer to a renovation, or to a completely new building on the site of an old one. I do understand that this page, on an obviously significant building, was created by an editor not in the habit of writing about synagogues, historic architecture or archaeology. And who, therefore, is probably unaware of questions of this nature. I have tried to help out with a more accurate title. the important wuestion that remain are:
 * 1) what was the date of the oldest synagogue built on this site
 * 2) was any part of that original building intact within the thirteenth century rebuilding?
 * 3) is the identification of the existing building with the old synagogue building confirmed?Historicist (talk) 12:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest you read the online refs. Johnbod (talk) 13:44, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I did read them. Except the Judaica - do you have that link?    The others are not only contradictory, they are unsophisticated.  I ran a couple of searches in JSTOR and books google, and teh university library to which my work station connects.  perhaps I used the wrong keywords, and I have little familiarity with the archaeology of Barcelona, but I cannot find a reliable source, and the article certainly doesn't have one.  The sources in the aarticle are very confused about what happened in the medievval period and on the details of how this was identified as an old synagogue.  I don't really doubt that it was, Barcelona is run by responsible people, so there must be some bais s for this, but news articles and city tourism booster web sites are not reliable.  please note that I have starte d an article on the oldest synagogues   in europe and contributed to one on oldesst synagouges n  in the U.S. because the newspapers of the world are filled with claims like this.  Almost all such claims of antiquity have some basis, and almost inevitably the news articles get it wrong.  This might, from reading the sources onow on the page,  be a case where  there was a first century Roman foundation on which a late Roman synagoue was built, then destroyed, then replaced with a new synagogue in the thriteenth century.   I am hoping that womeone familir with the Spanish and Catalan schlarly literature on the old section of Barcelona and with ancient and medieval synagogues can answer my questions.  Or that someone will identify a scholarly source.Historicist (talk) 15:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I just double checked the footnotes, there is one acceptable source http://www.calldebarcelona.org/earque1.html  The article needs a fairly major rewrite to tone down the exaggerated claims.  The usual problem with relying on newspaper articles.Historicist (talk) 16:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * My apologies again. I was working from an old text.  I see that Jonbod did most of what needed to be done uesterday.Historicist (talk) 16:04, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) As far as I know, the Encyclopedia Judaica isn't available online, even by subsciption.
 * 2) I'm the first to admit that I've never written any articles (beside this one) about synagogues.
 * 3) Part of the ancient Roman structure survives in the lowest level of the current building. When the building was significantly expanded in the 13th century, I don't know whether it was completely rebuilt or whether an addition to the existing structure was made.
 * 4) I was able to find a single academic paper about the reconstruction of the synagogue. It's in Spanish and it's not available online: Entre el ayer y el mañana: el proyecto de recuperación de la antigua Sinagoga Mayor de Barcelona (Between yesterday and tomorrow: the recovery project of the ancient Main Synagogue of Barcelona). — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 18:29, 29 January 2009 (UTC)