Talk:Ancients (Eternal Darkness)

A little defensive?
[This discussion originated at Talk:Chattur'gha before that page was moved here.] Anonymous editor, I think your removal of the word "foolish" and you other addition to the article is in bad taste. Chattur'gha is clearly meant to be the "stupid brute" if you will, of the game. Xel'lotath is the incredibly knowledgable one, whos knowledge makes her suspicious and drives her insane. Ulyaoth is the wise, seemingly calm one that has deceptive intentions. We should use these articles to reinforce these charachters for each god. Chattur'gha was indeed foolish for being so trustful, and he indeed is very stupid. It's already been mentioned that he has vast physical strength. I think we should include something that ensures the reader that he is as dangerous as the other two, but we need to focus a lot on his stupidity and his physical strength.
 * --Berserk798 17:35, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

not stupid
[This discussion originated at Talk:Chattur'gha before that page was moved here.] I would say calling him dumb is very stupid. It is a mistake to call him/it 'stupid' that is trying to place human values and mentallity upon an inscrutable space deity which has existed for countles millions of years, none of deities in the game are even anything approaching human so it is a mistake to place human concepts upon them.

Chattur'gha is the least subtle of the gods, granted he also the least intelligent from a human veiwpoint however this is an ancient arcane deity with earth shattering power,the worst you could say of him is that his mind is the most straightforward and simple and that he is the least 'intelligent' of the gods, which is considering his competition- not exactly humiliating. so to consider him 'stupid' is an encredably foolish within itself and (if hypotheticly he was real) would probably result in you ending up quite dead.-Hermes


 * What I'm trying to say is that the creators of the game specifically tried to make him appear as the dull and brutish one. We should thus include that in our article. No he isn't "stupid", but he's pretty dull in comparison to the other two. --Berserk798 19:13, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

"corrections"
I'll just deal with these paragraph by paragraph... I appreciate that you're trying to improve the article, we all are. Just make sure your corrections are accurate, and that the result is prose as good as or better than the previous version. There's no need to remove adjectives, either, unless you think they're POV. You changed"They are apparently members of a species that existed before other life emerged from the primordial ooze. The relentless movement of ice and the continental drift and other 'inscrutable' reasons bound the Ancients deep beneath the planet's surface, biding their time, waiting until the moment was right to return. The protagonists, particularly Alexandra Roivas, must stop their machinations and prevent the enslavement and destruction of humanity. The four surviving Ancients appearing in the game are:" to"A mysterious and great calamity trapped Chattur'gha, Ulyaoth and Xel'lotath deep beneath the Earth's surface and under the heavy foot of Mantorok. The protagonists in the game must stop their plans of returning to the surface of Earth and and prevent the enslavement and destruction of humanity. The four Ancients appearing in the game are:". I don't think the game or manual says anything about a calamity... or Mantorok's foot. Can you cite this?? "[Chattur'gha] resembles a huge snake-like creature with a triple jaw and lobster-like claws, and his Essense is the Claw of Chattur'gha, a red-clawed worm with an ara of violence surrounding it."to"He is a red being with lobster-like claws, and his essence is the Claw of Chattur'gha—a red claw that contains his strength."The "red-clawed worm" description is adapted from the game's description of the essence when Pious finds it, and the aura of violence from the game's statement that "The Claw of Chattur'gha [...] seethes with unrestrained violence." As for snake-like, I didn't know how to describe him. His segments make him look a bit like an Onix to me, but that doesn't seem appropriate for the tone of this article. And he has a hideous and unsettling triple-jawed mouth, you can clearly see this when you look at him, I'm not sure why you removed it. As for capitalization, the game uses capitals when referring to the Essences, so I think we should too. I did mistype it, though. "During his control of Pious Augustus he displays gullibility, as he relies on Pious's word, and puts his faith in an prophetic vision where he destroys Xel'lotath (though Ulyaoth and Xel'lotath also make mistakes similar to the latter, perhaps seeing visions of alternate timelines where they were summoned by Alex)."to"During his control of Pious Augustus he displays gullibility, as he relies on Pious's word, and puts his faith in a vague and prophetic vision where he destroys Xel'lotath (though Ulyaoth and Xel'lotath also make similar mistakes)."Not a bad change, I'll leave it, I just wonder how to convey the removed information. Each Ancient sees flashes of the battle that occurs in a different timeline. Also, the current phrasing makes it sound like the others also put too much faith in Pious, but this is not the case, Xel'lotath even questions his loyalty. "the Veil of Ulyaoth, a dome with sharp arms or talons curving downwards."to"the Veil of Ulyaoth, a dome with sharp arms or tentacles curving downward."They really don't look like tentacles, they're more like talons or claws( but I didn't want to say claws because of Chattur'gha). Frankly, the whole thing looks like a Metroid to me, but that's also not in keeping with the tone. "The very sight of [Xel'lotath] is maddening; she is a strange, pinkish being with four arms surrounding a single great eye, and a wormlike tail trailing behind her; and her Essence is the Sigil of Xel'lotath, an impossile artifact resembling a warped angel."to"She is a strange being with four arms surrounding a single eye, and a snakelike body. Her Essence is the Sigil of Xel'lotath." I'm not sure I understand the impetus behind any of these changes. Like her creatures, Xel'lotath's body seems to make no anatomical sense. Her trunk, in which her arms are rooted, is not snakelike at all, the eye is indeed "great"( in the sense of "large") and the tail is more remniscent of a fluke( flatworm) than a serpent. The warped angel thing is, again, adapted from in-game text, and I don't see how the inclusion of the description hurts the article in any way. "Mantorok, God of Order and Chaos, also known as the Corpse God, is the creator of the Tome of Eternal Darkness in the video game Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem. Although it appears in the game to be in a position of inferiority, it is in actuality the ultimate Ancient. It created the equilibrium between the other three Ancients, making sure that they would fight and destroy each other"to"Mantorok, God of Order and Chaos, also known as the Corpse God, is the creator of the Tome of Eternal Darkness. Although it appears in the game to be in a position of inferiority, it is in actuality the ultimate Ancient. It created the equilibrium between the other three Ancients, ensuring that they would fight and destroy each other"Good changes. "The heart never stopped beating, even throughout the many centuries of the Corpse God being bound, during which time it has apparently lain dying."to"The heart never stopped beating, even throughout the many centuries of the Corpse God being bound, during which time it has apparently laid dying."You're confusing lay(/lays/laying/laid/has laid) with lie(/lies/lying/lay/has lain). -- WikidSmaht (talk) 21:33, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I don’t recall ever hearing about continental drift being what trapped the ancients… I can’t imagine the ancients not being able to avoid huge landmasses moving slower than an inch a year. And I wasn’t using “Mantorok’s foot” in the literal sense. I don’t think Mantorok has feet. You seem pretty adamant to take things "straight from the book", but I think it's ok if we don't quote the game or strategy guide all the time.


 * The Essence of Chattur’gha does not look like a “red-clawed worm” It really just looks like a lobster claw. I don’t think that it matters that the game describes it that way, because it’s a pretty inaccurate description. I removed the “triple jaw” description, because to someone who has never seen Chattur’gha, it really doesn’t mean anything. The possibilities of a “triple jaw” are endless.


 * I suppose we could just remove the fact that they made similar mistakes completely, because it really isn’t significant for Ulyaoth or Xel’lotath. The game uses it to give the player a sense of Chattur’gha’s ineptitude, but it was necessary to make an analogous clip showing Ulyaoth and Xel’lotath seeing similar visions.


 * They may come to a point, but they’re still intended to represent tentacles. They don’t look very much like tentacles, but they certainly don’t look like claws either.


 * Xel’lotath’s body does make anatomical sense. Just because it’s a fantastic anatomy doesn’t mean it’s nonsensical. You’re right; it looks more like a flatworm than a snake. The thing is, you didn’t specify that it looked like a flatworm, and the first thing that comes to mind when hearing the word “worm” is an earthworm. Her tail definitely doesn’t look like an earthworm. Again, the description “warped angel” is misleading to someone who has never seen it before. If you look at it, it does look somewhat like an abstract angel, but by hearing the words “warped angel”, the shape of Xel’lotath’s sigil certainly doesn’t come to mind.


 * Yes, you’re right about the laid/lain thing. I think I meant to type “lay dying” but inadvertently typed “laid dying”. --Berserk798 02:28, October 13, 2005 (UTC)

The original version of how they were trapped was lifted from the game article, you'd have to check the history and ask the original author. The instruction manual does say it was the "relentless advance of ice and the continental plates". And now that I'm looking at it( I was away visiting family before) it says they were driven into the "recesses of our world"– rather than under the surface of the planet, which always struck me as too literal and not in line with what the game shows. The game makes it seem more like they're trapped in pocket dimensions, or limbo, rather than buried in the Earth( which would also be more in keeping with how I imagine Mantorok imprisoning them). You are right that "Mantorok's foot" is good imagery, but I wasn't sure if you meant it in the literal sense or not( particularly combining that imagery with the "beneath the Earth's surface" bit), and if I wasn't sure having played the game, would a casual reader be able to make that distinction at all?

OK, I will grant that the "red-clawed worm" isn't such an apt description, but it doesn't really look like a lobster claw either, given the oddness of the shape and symmetry. To me it looks like horns mounted on I-don't-know-what. As for triple-jaw, I'm not sure what you mean about endless possibilities. I was given that description before I saw Chattur'gha and I knew what it meant. A manticore has this feature also in many traditions, and that's how I've always pictured it, the form is pretty standard.

I disagee that the misinterpretted visions of Ulyaoth and Xel'lotath are unimportant; rather than a dis aimed at Chatty I think it's the first big hint we get about the mutiple timelines and Mantorok's manipulations. The telling thing is not that he has the vision and believes it( they all do), but that Pious questions it in the Chattur'gha timeline and not in the others.

I don't think they're tentacles. That's way too abstract. Maybe change it to "sharp arms" or something?

Xel's body looks more than fantastical to me, it looks impossible. I don't think there's enough support for all its structures. Regardless, the other Ancients have bodies that appear analogous to various real creatures, she is much more surreal in appearance. And I think it's worth noting that she's pink even though she's represented by green, particularly since the other Ancients have the colors of their bodies described. How should we describe the tail? "flatworm-like tail" is clunky. "tail resembling a flatworm"? Still not sure. As for the essense, alright, we can give up angel as too confusing, but I like the mention of the "impossible artifact", it's both accurate and intriguing. Perhaps "is an impossible artifact resembling a twisted and highly abstract effigy"?

Hmmm... On the old Mantorok page it was "was apparently dying" I changed it to "has apparently lain dying" and you switched it to "laid". -- WikidSmaht (talk) 13:54, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, include your new information. Saying that “continental drift” trapped them under the Earth just sounds stupid though. They’re extremely powerful deities, so I have trouble thinking continental drift would be able to end them. I don’t understand the problem with saying “Mantorok’s foot”. Why would anyone take it literally? Even if they have no knowledge of Mantorok at all whatsoever, it’s still a common phrase. People wouldn’t think “Mantorok kept them under his foot?”


 * A jaw by definition is a bony or cartilaginous structure that holds the teeth and forms the structure of the mouth. Chattur’gha doesn’t look to have three bony structures that hold his teeth and form his mouth. I think he has one jaw, and what to me seems more like pincers.


 * I don’t really care. Do what you prefer with the “visions” thing.


 * Ok, all of the Essences represent the gods that they belong to. The green jewel in Xel’lotath’s Essence represents her big green eye, and you can see that her sigil is an abstract representation of her body. Ulyaoth’s Essence is so obviously representing him it isn’t even debatable. It looks nearly exactly like him, and the sharp “arms”, or whatever you want to call them, represent his tentacles. I suppose you could call them spurs or something, but I think we should include that they’re meant to represent tentacles.


 * How is it impossible for her body to be supported? Not only could she easily use her magick, but also the only time the game shows her is when she’s in a zero gravity environment. It isn’t worth noting that her body is pink for two reasons. One is that she really isn’t very pink at all; the other is that her eye is green. There’s no significance to her body color. If you feel that her body color needs to be included, then we should describe it as a fleshy or light brown color. For her essence, I think something like “an impossible artifact that abstractly represents the goddess herself” or something to that effect would be suitable. --Berserk798 20:18, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Additions? (The Ancients in combat)
Just an addition I wanted to propose, regarding the Ancients' "conflict" scenes at the end of the game. I think these scenes are worth exploring, as they reveal a little more of each of the Ancients' traits and personalities. Includes SPOILERS, of course. (This is my first attempt at editing Wikipedia, so I thought I would post in talk before messing with the actual page.)

Chattur'gha: Overview

His first "weapon" in combat is his red energy ray, which he projects from his open claw. Chattur'gha's energy ray can burn the enemy, or it can act as a kind of "tractor-beam." He tried to use the first kind of ray against Ulyaoth (only to have its power turned back against him instead). He used the ray's second function to pull Xel'lotath within range of his claws.

His claws themselves are Chattur'gha's other main weapon. He is, in fact, the only one of the Ancients to make use of purely physical attacks.

Chattur'gha: Combat against Xel'lotath

Chattur'gha relies on his brute force to win this fight. He displays very little strategy, aside from in the first round, where he allows Xel'lotath to draw close before smacking her with his claw. When his enemy appears to split into three, Chattur'gha's solution is simply to whack them all at once (after pausing for a moment as if he really had to think about it).

The battle ends because Xel'lotath is stunned from the blow, and therefore unable to dodge Chattur'gha's "tractor-beam." Once he has her in his claw, his sheer brawn is too much for her, and Xel'lotath is torn apart.

Chattur'gha: Combat against Ulyaoth

Chattur'gha's limitations become more obvious in his losing fight. It seems that he only has the two methods of attack. He IS smart enough to give up on his energy ray when he discovers that Ulyaoth can suck it up into a portal and fire it right back at him. But the only other thing Chattur'gha can think to do is try to attack Ulyaoth with his claws.

Once Ulyaoth destroys his first claw, Chattur'gha never even manages a third attack. And after his other claw is gone, he actually tries to run away, making him the only Ancient who tries to flee from his destroyer. It could be said that this is cowardice on Chattur'gha's part. (Couldn't he have tried to slither up and bite Ulyaoth with that big mouth of his?) Then again, it might be that without his claws Chattur'gha had no choice but to flee, as he was both literally and figuratively disarmed.

Ulyaoth: Overview

Like Chattur'gha, Ulyaoth's attack capabilities are limited. His sole power in battle with the other Ancients is his ability to create portals. Ulyaoth can use these portals either to shoot energy beams OUT at the enemy, or to suck the enemy IN through the portal.

Ulyaoth: Combat against Chattur'gha

It is pretty clear that Chattur'gha never had a chance. Ulyaoth uses his portals creatively, from pulling in Chattur'gha's energy ray and shooting it back at him, to dismembering the enemy Ancient by pulling him into his portals, and then closing them on Chattur'gha once he is partway through.

Ulyaoth seems to be much faster than either of the enemy Ancients: he is able to intercept Chattur'gha's attacks and counter-attack almost instantly. In contrast, both Chattur'gha and Xel'lotath have to pause for a moment before countering their opposing Ancient's move. It could be argued that Ulyaoth was toying with Chattur'gha during this fight, sadisticly cutting him apart, once piece at a time. Note that he uses his portal to absorb Chattur'gha tail-first, instead of head-first, arguably extending the other Ancient's suffering.

Ulyaoth: Combat against Xel'lotath

As with Chattur'gha, Ulyaoth's limitations become clearer when we see him in his losing battle. The Absent Horror can't seem to do anything BUT create portals. Even when Xel'lotath has proven that she can block Ulyaoth's portal-beams or deflect them back at him, he keeps trying the same tactic. Perhaps he lacks the imagination to try anything different? By the end of the fight it is pretty clear that Ulyaoth has run out of tricks.

He does not, however, attempt to use one of his portals to flee. Perhaps in his arrogance he refused to consider that he might actually lose to Xel'lotath.

Xel'lotath: Overview

Xel'lotath seems to have the widest range of powers available to her. She can channel her power to form shields, or energy balls, beams, and bolts. She also uses illusions to aid her, as when she seems to go into Ulyaoth's portal only to reappear behind him, or when she creates two duplicates of herself while trying to confuse Chattur'gha.

Xel'lotath: Combat against Ulyaoth

Xel'lotath pauses to consider each attack that Ulyaoth makes before she counters him. Since she can block his attacks with relative ease, it seems that she can afford the time. She plays with the other Ancient's mind by seeming to vanish into his portal, only to reappear behind Ulyaoth (instead of being destroyed as he must have intended). In the end, she destroys him with a blast of power once he is too weakened to attack or defend himself.

Xel'lotath: Combat against Chattur'gha

Xel'lotath's downfall appears to be her overconfidence. Despite having the apparent advantage in variety of long-range attacks, she keeps getting too close to Chattur'gha. Her "three Xel'lotaths" illusion fails because she and the duplicates are close enough together that the other Ancient can strike all of them at the same time.

Once Chattur'gha has caught her in his claw, Xel'lotath seems to panic. Instead of trying to hit him with another magic attack, she first claps her hands to her "cheeks" (the sides of her eye) in apparent shock, then flails her arms wildly in an attempt to break free. Of course she cannot compete with Chattur'gha in terms of physical strength, and so she is quickly torn apart.

Faceless Man 01:19, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I think it needs to be cleaned up, it's kind of wordy. While I like and support your idea of adding information about the conflicts, I'm not sure we need thorough descriptions, and we definitely don't need redundant examination of each fight under each Ancient. -- WikidSmaht (talk) 21:01, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

70.19.79.95 06:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC): I think it sounds pretty good the way he's got it.

Parallels between the Ancients and their Great Old One inspirations
It's mentioned that Eternal Darkness is loosely based on HP Lovecraft's Cthulu Mythos but further investigation reveals quite a few parallels indeed. The Great Old One Cyäegha is Xel'lotath, without a doubt, Azathoth (The Keeper of Gates) himself I'm quite sure is Mantorok (however it is possible that Mantorok is a fusion of Azathoth and Shub-Niggurath as Azathoth is a crippled all powerful being but Shub-Niggurath has many mouthes and tentacles and is more amorphous in appearance and is also a fertility icon), as for the other Ancients, I'm not quite sure. I'm pretty sure that Chattur'gha is Hastur in that he is a massive cephlapod with a long tail with two arm like appendages. As for Ulyaoth, I have no idea who Ulyaoth represents. If anybody has any ideas I could start working on a section?--GreatMizuti 11:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I dunno, that kinda seems like original research to me. -- WikidSmaht (talk)