Talk:Andinia Plan

The "Andinia Plan" is a fantasy by Argentine anti-Semites cobbling together facts from here and there and confusing, on purpose, immigration to Argentina (which was above board and encouraged by Argentine authorities from 1880 onwards) with an imaginary plan to carve out a Jewish state within Argentina.

Herzl did mention Argentina but the idea never took wing. Actually, the practical alternative proposed to Herzl was in present-day Uganda. That was the issue that split the Zionist congress. There never was any practical discussion of a Jewish state in Argentina during Zionist congresses.

Propose editing deeply and/or deleting. elpincha 15:38, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Not true
I also propose this article for deletion. Andinia Plan is an unfounded antisemitic libel which claim that Israeli soldiers where inmigrating to La Patagonia in order to establish a second Jewish State there.--200.55.64.195 21:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Proceso
There is a sentence that says "During the military dictatorships in Argentina (several periods between 1930 and 1983), extreme right-wing movements (Neo-Nazis, Neo-Fascist and so-called "nationalists") were free to publish and broadcast their ideas, whereas mainstream political parties were proscribed." I don't want to play devil's advocate, but this isn't true, many nazist books were censored during the last dictatorship. See here some of the specific decrees. MBelgrano (talk) 02:56, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * While I don't dispute the assertion, I do recall going to the Feria del Libro during the Proceso, and seeing openly anti-semitic books being on display. Also, during the Proceso, "Cabildo" magazine circulated openly and was sold in kiosks, whereas mainstream political media (e.g. Peronista, Radical, Desarrollista) were out-right censored, so they went underground. There were also radio programs where the Holocaust was denied, yet hailed as a good idea. All of this from personal recollection, which should be shared by many people who observed the Argentine landscape at those times (e.g. Herman Schiller). elpincha (talk) 03:08, 28 June 2012 (UTC)


 * That's a bit relative. Yes, there were some nazist books or magazines that were not banned, but... nazism and negacionism references have never been banned in Argentina the way they are in Europe. Not during the proceso, but neither before nor after. I suppose that's because neonazis have never been a noteworthy problem here, so nobody saw the need to forbid it. Not because there's anyone supporting it, but because nobody cares (at least, in the grand scheme of things, one or two nuts around there are not worth any notice, and common laws are enough to deal with them). Same as canibalism: no civilized country encourages it, but how many countries have actually specifically banned it? Cambalachero (talk) 20:10, 28 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Even if I were to concede the point (which I am not), how is that germane to the discussion? I know my personal experience is not worth a lot on Wikipedia, but do some asking: pretty much everybody will tell you that during 1976-1981 it was way safer to say "Hitler was right" than "I miss Evita" or "We should have elections sometime". elpincha (talk) 11:38, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You seem to want to see a pro-nazi bias in the lack of a nazi bann were there was none. No pro-nazi laws were enacted, no anti-nazi laws were derogated. The official position towards nazism was exactly the same than with Perón and Isabel and with Alfonsín, nothing had changed. See Hitler Ate Sugar, and replace "Hitler" with "Videla", to understand how wrong your reasoning is. Cambalachero (talk) 11:52, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I give up. elpincha (talk) 12:55, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Various random comments
Zerotalk 13:58, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * This is an exceedingly poor article: badly written, inaccurate, misleading and poorly sourced.
 * What is the source for the ICA (Jewish Colonization Association) project being called the "Andinia Plan"? I have a large literature on it and the word "Andinia" is not present.
 * No actual history of the "Andinia Plan" conspiracy theory is presented, not even a mention of its origin.
 * Some of the sources given are obscure and hard to identify.
 * Given all this, I have grave doubts over this article's right to exist.

fighting bullshit with bullshit
The facts about early Zionist plans have very little to do with present day conspiracy theories, but if the former is mentioned it should be at least correct. This part: "the idea was seriously considered as an alternative to Palestine by leading Zionists such as Theodore Herzl. However, these did not include plans for an independent Jewish state there, but for a local Jewish autonomy." is in direct contradiction to what Herzl wrote. Actually, in Der Judenstaat, he wrote that gradual immigration was useless without sovereignty. (Die Auswanderung hat folglich nur dann einen Sinn, wenn ihre Grundlage unsere gesicherte Souveränität ist.) Zerotalk 09:16, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

What "the father of the Jewish State" himself said
I must be missing something about this discussion. Doesn´t Theodor Herzl, literally mentioned in the Israeli declaration of independence as "the spiritual father of the Jewish State", openly consider Argentina as an alternative to Palestine for the establishment of a ¨sovereign¨ state in a pamphlet literally called Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State)?

II. The Jewish Question

[...]

Those Jews who agree with our idea of a State will attach themselves to the Society, which will thereby be authorized to confer and treat with Governments in the name of our people. The Society will thus be acknowledged in its relations with Governments as a State-creating power. This acknowledgment will practically create the State.

Should the Powers declare themselves willing to admit our sovereignty over a neutral piece of land, then the Society will enter into negotiations for the possession of this land. Here two territories come under consideration, Palestine and Argentine. In both countries important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews. An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the Government to stop a further influx of Jews. Immigration is consequently futile unless we have the sovereign right to continue such immigration.

The Society of Jews will treat with the present masters of the land, putting itself under the protectorate of the European Powers, if they prove friendly to the plan. We could offer the present possessors of the land enormous advantages, assume part of the public debt, build new roads for traffic, which our presence in the country would render necessary, and do many other things. The creation of our State would be beneficial to adjacent countries, because the cultivation of a strip of land increases the value of its surrounding districts in innumerable ways.

PALESTINE OR ARGENTINE?

Shall we choose Palestine or Argentine? We shall take what is given us, and what is selected by Jewish public opinion. The Society will determine both these points.

Argentine is one of the most fertile countries in the world, extends over a vast area, has a sparse population and a mild climate. The Argentine Republic would derive considerable profit from the cession of a portion of its territory to us. The present infiltration of Jews has certainly produced some discontent, and it would be necessary to enlighten the Republic on the intrinsic difference of our new movement.

Palestine is our ever-memorable historic home. The very name of Palestine would attract our people with a force of marvelous potency. If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could in return undertake to regulate the whole finances of Turkey. We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence. The sanctuaries of Christendom would be safeguarded by assigning to them an extra-territorial status such as is well-known to the law of nations. We should form a guard of honor about these sanctuaries, answering for the fulfillment of this duty with our existence. This guard of honor would be the great symbol of the solution of the Jewish question after eighteen centuries of Jewish suffering.

NPOV/imbalance
This page is currently defining proposals for a Jewish state in Argentina as conspiracy theory, based on the ADL, a lobby group, and the JCPA - an unreliable source. This is garbage sourcing, and it flies in the face of the extensive material confirming that Herzl seriously considered Argentina as a contender for the location of a Jewish state. This idea appeared in Theodor Herzl’s The Jewish State published in 1896. Argentina was identified as one of the options for the Zionist project, along with Palestine, due to the fertility of its lands and its small population at that time. [...] Herzl believed that, “The Argentine Republic would derive considerable benefit from the cession of a portion of its territory to us.” Iskandar323 (talk) 08:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The worst areas of inaccuracy and unreliable sourcing in the lead have now been addressed. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)